Dick Allen

QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:39 AM) Oh, so you just want to assume the offense is the same, while switching out a pitcher. I see. More nonsense. How about saving $ and time? I'm sorry, it is total nonsense. Who would think James Shields being on the mound would not cause the White Sox to not score runs, especially considering they scored 10 one of his starts, and have offensive explosions with their better pitchers pitching. Silly me.

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:37 AM) Francona didn't start winning until his 5th year as a manager when he joined the Red Sox. The Red Sox teams he managed had a top 5 payroll every year he was there. Robin is just now in his 5th year managing and has had no higher than the 12th highest payroll. Over Francona's first 4 years he went 285-363 (.439), Robin has gone 297-351 (.458) through his first 4 years and nearly won the division in his first year. If the Sox had Francona during his Phillies days you guys would have the exact same complaints. Exactly: 68-94 75-87 77-85 65-97 A clown who no one will ever want managing again. The next season he managed, he won the WS. Better players does tend to help.

Can we all just drop the Hahn wants something totally different, his hands may be tied, he is just doing what he is told line of thinking. He has worked with KW and JR for years and years and years. He's had opportunities to go elsewhere. If his philosophy is polar opposite of KW and JR, he either wouldn't be employed by the team, or is too weak to be a guy making decisions.

QUOTE (CB2.0 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:26 AM) That is pure conjecture. There is absolutely no way you can support that conclusion. There is a way. They scored 4, 10 and 2 runs. They would have won the game they scored 10. I don't think Danks or Johnson are giving up less than 4 to Washington. And you really think they would have held the Indians to 2?

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 10:19 AM) Another great explanation of the resounding gong "show me where this organization is capable of scouting and developing talent". That's what I am trying to point out. You can't say the team is incapable of scouting and developing talent, and want the team to trade any talent it does have away for people who need to be scouted and developed.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:56 AM) I just want this f***ing guy to be a solid #5 from here on out. Maybe we can hope for an offseason of adjustments for next year to be better. Give us close to 200 innings around 4.5 era ball and we'll take it out of the 5 spot. Edit: or hope he is absolutely miserable here enough to the point where he opts out haha (I've noticed the dude hasn't looked interested at all pitching here. At least to me it seems). It will be something that will be fixed. A guy can't go from a 3.06 ERA to be worse than a position player on the mound overnight. To me, I think it's mechanics. His delivery seems different every pitch. It seemed better the last couple of innings his second start, but you knew when he walked the first hitter on Saturday on 4 pitches with none even close that it was going to be another disaster. Coop needs to fix him quick. As bad as he's been, if Erik Johnson, John Danks or Mat Latos made the 3 starts Shields made, the Sox would more than likely be 1-2 in them, just what they are with Shields.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:48 AM) That's ridiculous to say they won't be fired. If this freefall continues, and Shields goes on like this, Hahn's seat will be very hot after asking to DFA Danks in order to acquire possibly the worst starter that has ever played baseball, with a contract we have to hope gets laroched. Add to that Year 4 of a rebuild going nowhere. Everything has its limits. Wasting JR's money is a quick way to test them. They let Danks go way before that, and JR was part of the acquire Shields decision. He wasn't talked into it. They aren't getting fired, and even if Hahn was, KW wouldn't. Would you want him trading for prospects? "Our owner had a little concern with that outing, too. It wasn't a fun conversation to have," a smiling Hahn said. "He pointed out the line. He wanted to make sure we were aware of it, and I assured him we were aware of it. "Ultimately, he understood the track record of this player and how he fits in going forward. I've harped on this, but we've looked for an extended period of time. But certainly this last offseason, trying to add guys who fit into that clubhouse, that have a certain type of character, a certain type of makeup that helps not only focus on the matter at hand and competes, but also makes the guys around them better. James is another example of that type of makeup. Jerry [Reinsdorf] appreciated the entirety of the player beyond just that one game."

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:42 AM) If your argument is that Hahn/KW should not be the ones doing the rebuild, I agree. They should both be fired for their Major League roster plan this year. But trading away some of our more valuable assets before they are not valuable anymore when we aren't going to win anyway is not a bad strategy just because the Royals were bad for a long time. They are not going to be fired. Still want to do a total rebuild?

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:31 AM) I would be really impressed with JR if he sent out a letter expressing his own personal disappointment and 1) offering the equivalent amount purchased since the end of April/early may towards an equal amount of complimentary 2017 tickets OR 2) offering a full refund for the remaining 2016 tickets purchased as a show of good faith that eventually the front office will get something right. Of course, now that the fans have been "suckered" into buying those additional 100-150,000 tickets, no such tender/offer will be forthcoming. Which means that it will be suicide selling season tickets for 2017 if this trend continues. All the fans will be waiting until at least June/July of 2017 since not even the 2nd best start in baseball guarantees much of anything for this franchise. LMAO. Yeah this team will be in a .300 winning pct slump the rest of the year. They are 3 under .500.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:11 AM) Pretty sure people don't want Hahn/KW in charge of rebuild, as has been stated. But, I'm sure anyone that advocates firing hahn is an idiot, because everyone knows that some teams have fired their GM and gotten WORSE, so we should definitely never do any action. There is a whole encyclopedia of times where teams tried and failed so, too risky. We should deifnitely just wait for a draft that won't affect the team for 3 years to add on to our nice fore of 34 year old star players. Much safer. Look at how great the winning we are experiencing is.Rebuilds feature so much losing, the sox winning ways have really been much more fun. Is Hahn an idiot or not? It seems every bad idea was KW's and any good one was Hahn's. Their philosophies are most likely a lot more similar than anyone who thinks every bad idea is KW's wants to believe. But they are the guys who are going to be making the decisions. So if you think either is incapable, having them trade players like Sale and Q and Abreu is insane.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:12 AM) I'd say so, that's a pretty good core to start with. Add in a couple free agents and that's a WS contender. 1. Bumgarner 2. Strasburg 3. Martin perez 4. Hellickson C Posey 1B Smoak OF Stanton OF Heyward OF D. Jennings DH C. Santana Not really and since it was 6 years ago, you probably would have had to trade a few of these guys away for prospects.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 09:08 AM) The other problem is you have to be able to provide at least replacement level or "somewhat" capable minor leaguers in case of injuries or non-performance. Let's forget the Andersons, Rodons and Fulmers for a moment. One of the single biggest issues with this franchise is just having someone who can step in and not put up a 500ish OPS and a negative WAR. The Jason Coatses/Carlos Sanchezes/Saladinos/Shucks/Sands of the world. Due to our lack of these guys developing in the minors....we end up with Albers/Navarro/Avila/Latos/Rollins/Gonzalez instead. It's no wonder that teams like the Indians with smaller budgets are kicking our butts. They're just more efficient in their spending/scouting/talent evaluation. Same with KC. Says the guy who wanted the Sox to pay Latos and Parra a total of $18 million in 2016.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 08:59 AM) Great, I can't wait for Dick Allen's own well thought out personal opinion on the future of the franchise. When that comes it will be a first. I don't even know who "They" is in your post, I"m not advocating KW/Hahn get a second crack at a rebuild they half-assed nad wasted 3 years on. You don't need to trade every good player, but there is no way in my eyes we are closer to the playoffs by keeping all of our players nad trying to "add-on" with zero budget and prospects, then unloading some value pieces to start to come up with Anderson and hopefully Collins, Burdi, Fulmer, Adams and whoever else we get. This team is razor thin, not that talented, and broke. Seems so much more promising than rebuilding. A first, LMAO. I just said draft and develop players better. Don't be scared to blow through the international spending, sign a free agent here and there. It's a lot better option than having someone you don't think understands the game and can't identify talent trading away any talent on the roster. But maybe you are part of the group of Sox fans that actually prefers losing. If they are broke, the rebuild will look more like the Royals and Pirates, that takes 20-30 years.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 08:59 AM) Except Davidson and Garcia were not "can't miss" guys. They were in the 70-100 range (I just looked up Davidson, he was #88 and peaked at #72)...but not Top 50 talents like Rodon/Anderson/Fulmer (borderline). Avi Garcia was #74. Jose Iglesias was the #9 prospect JUST for the Red Sox in 2013. Now who would you take out of all three of those players, AS OF TODAY? The White Sox occasionally have been right about prospects or guys with less than one year, like Quentin and Eaton. More often than not, they've missed by a country mile, whether it's Tyler Flowers, Nestor Molina, Zach Stewart, Avi or Matt Davidson. The Swisher trades, for example. Trading Gio Gonzalez twice. Mark Teahen. Jeff Keppinger. The list is too long to go through over and over again. A good GM, they say, is right about 60% of the time. Hahn has been right about 30-35% of the time. He's had some notable successes, but not nearly enough to counterbalance his biggest failures. I posted BPs top 20 prospects from 2010 on here yesterday. There are some good players on it, but at best a .500 team. Being ranked the best farm system and actually being the best farm system are 2 very different things. Top prospects fail all the time. Find the list. There are a couple of stars, and if you had BP's top 20 all at once you would easily be ranked the best farm system in baseball, maybe of all time.

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 08:48 AM) Davidson was ranked the 80th best prospect in MLB in 2014. Nice, but no "can't miss" type. The Soxtalk scouts were very, very impressed. There was one poster, not Caulfield, who posts almost every gamethread how bad Hahn is at his job, and how bad everyone else is, who loved this trade. Davidson was the man.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jun 20, 2016 -> 08:41 AM) Yeah, he was a good prospect, failed. That's the problem with trying to do a rebuild where you rely on every piece working out. Part of the trading away our talent that likely won't be good when we actually make the playoffs is to get a LOT of talent, so you can handle a davidson not working out. But that obviously doesn't fit your reflexive anti-strawman arguments. DA, you know this front office has failed. The people pointing it out aren't wrong. We have traded more major league talent than we've brought in and are basically the same team. There is no great cavalry coming up in the next two years to plug our gaps. At some point you have to weigh what is faster to get to the playoffs, acquiring a bunch of young pieces and let them develop 2 yeras before supplementing them with ML pieces, or dumpster diving for vets after you've alreayd maxed out your budget because your core is so good that it makes you look like your continued fourth and fifth place finishes are a fluke. But if they have failed, giving them a project where failure is quite likely MAKES NO SENSE. Rebuilds fail more than not. There have been exceptions, but not many, and if people really want the Sox to be like the Cubs, 35k people have to show up to games when they are losing 95 plus for 4 or 5 years in an row.

The Sox suck, they haven't made the playoffs in blah, blah, blah. Hahn and KW are horrible. They don't know what they are doing. Here's how you fix it. Have the guys you don't think you know what they are doing trade away all their good players for prospects. That will work out perfectly. Another 10-20 years of daily whining. All you need to know about prospects is to go back to the Matt Davidson thread. He was called the best available 3rd base prospect. A can't miss. Hahn was praised for his new core which included Davidson and Avi Garcia. A guy the main concern was to avoid the super 2. That cost Addison Reed. A loss, but not a Chris Sale, Q type loss. Keep the good players. Draft better. Sign foreign free agents. Develop better. Learn how to make decent trades. Blow it up is not wise.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 08:25 PM) The Red Sox have done some really smart things, besides throwing money around: Being patient with Jackie Bradley, Jr., for one. That has been rewarded. They easily could have taken the Sox route and cut bait early. They also have developed enough minor league talent (Moncada/Benitendi are two of the two 10-15 hitting prospects in the game at the moment) that they can trade for virtually anyone in the world, with the possible exception of Trout. Rangers have done the exact same thing, especially being successful in the Latin America. What top prospect comparable to Jackie Bradley Jr. Did the Sox cut bait early?

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 07:39 PM) That certainly is a problem, but it's better than advertised. There was no reason to dumpster dive for Latos and certainly not Shields. Johnson was an okay 5 (anyone who thought Shields could be more than that should spend their time practicing alchemy) but the pitching coach didn't like him; nor did he like Junior Guerra. Poor roster decisions don't help. Nor does poor talent evaluation. It's near impossible to build a team with veterans when your young core stands at 4. Hahn has since made a number of terrible trades which have exacerbated the problem; but his plan had no chance of success anyway. Hahn may be okay, and he may have been able to build this operation with a sensible plan. But even then, he's got to maneuver through sacred cows like Kenny Williams and Don Cooper....not only does he have to win, he has to keep those 2 happy while doing it. I JOHNSON is horrible. ERA over 10 in SD. The Sox won 8 of Latos 11 starts.ok for 3 million. Juno is starting to show what he is. And he is older than all of the others.

The Saks are just taking him off the 40. If you want him you have to pay him a lot of money. .

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Jun 19, 2016 -> 03:41 PM) Renteria taking over does nothing for me. Exactly. He has been here all season. The same dopes will be going up to hit. I guess they will be much better with Robin not sitting in the dugout.

This is probably it for Robin. Hopefully JR puts some others on notice.

Abreu needs to make that play. At least knock it down.

Even with a 98 mph fastball and a 91 mph slider, Nate is getting hit pretty hard. Anytime Coop wants to "fix" someone is OK by me.

Lawrie saved the game.