Dick Allen

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:36 PM) Yes, ticket sales are going to rise this year because, as you noted, people bought into the concept that this team could actually win. As a consequence, they sold a bunch of season tickets. The crowds this year, right in the middle of summer, are terrible unless they have some huge gimmick. They're getting smaller crowds right now, with a solid season ticket sales boost, than they got last year, which means fewer and fewer people are coming to see these games and the only thing keeping the attendance from collapsing through the floor is the several thousand additional season tickets they sold last year. We are getting the worst "summer crowds" for White Sox teams since before the WS and that's with a boost of several thousand season ticket sales over last year. That means the walkup/single game ticket sales are ungodly awful. Do you honestly think that those season ticket sales will come back next year when we can't sell single game tickets right now? The impression I've got is that the fanbase is now somewhere between angry and completely disillusioned. Unless they pull off acquiring mike trout this offseason, even "looking like we might be competitive" isn't going to be enough to un-do the damage done by this season. We took the people who were still interested in white sox baseball, who would have been interested in season tickets but were holding out for a team that they thought could win...and we spat on them. The end result of that is going to be felt next year and it's going to be ugly. There was over 30k there on Sunday. What was the gimmick? Let's be like the Pirates and the Cubs and the Royals...the one thing they have in common is being bad a very long time, but between these model franchises, they do have as many championships as the disaster of a franchise on the South Side of Chicago the last 30 years. Tickets were bought months in advance. There isn't going to be announced crowds of 14,000 every night except for the Cubs and Yankees like some suggest.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:14 PM) Here's the problem. "Oh no, the White Sox would never be able to sustain a rebuild. Could imagine what it would do to the fan base if they had like 4 losing seasons out of 5 years?" Yeah, we've already done that. We're going to really pay for it next year based on how terrible the walkup crowds look this eyar. The "rebuilding will destroy this fan base" threat doesn't work when we've done exactly that without any rebuilding and with a roster that looks very, very far from a sure thing over the next few years. First, there is a big difference between trying to win and failing, and putting a product you know isn't good enough on the field. White Sox attendance will rise this year for the first time since 2006. Walk up crowds were terrible in 2012 when they were in first place most of the year. Walk up crowds are pretty much a thing of the past. They really marketed Buehrle vs. Sale and Sale going for a record and sold 4,000 more seats. That was considered huge. I read somewhere where the biggest day of game sale in 2012 was somewhere around 2,000.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 01:09 PM) Dick: This is more of a rhetorical statement / question. Given the attendance issues particularly the past few years would it really matter if they went to a rebuild instead of a reload philosophy and stated that? Does it really matter if instead of averaging 23 thousand they averaged 18 for the time they were rebuilding? (Especially when you factor in possibly the best lease agreement for the stadium in all of MLB as the Tribune explained in great detail a few months ago) Given the massive revenue streams coming in including from web / internet sources, the former commissioner saying MLB is now a nine billion dollar industry (which is NFL territory) I get the strong sense attendance isn't the "make or break" issue anymore. Just my opinion. Mark The big problem is in Chicago, the casual fan has an alternative. Especially now. I don't think the Cubs are quite as great as some people think they are, and face it, they are the Cubs. But with Wrigley Field undergoing a renovation, USCF will be considered "the dump" in Chicago in a couple of years, and if that team is more interesting for a 3 or 4 or 5 year stretch, where the Sox aren't even trying to win, that could set them back like blowing off WGN did many, many years ago.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:57 PM) One general perception that I'm getting from all this discussion is that is that the Sox organization as a whole have done a poor job of communicating what "the plan" is and how they intend to carry it out. Talk of this three year "window / plan" seems to have come out when Kenny talked with the media in June for example. For so many fans to have different ideas / perceptions / thoughts of what to do, who to blame, who to fire gives me that impression. Say want you will about Epstein but he made it pretty clear to everyone what he was going to do when he took over the Cubs and he stayed with that philosophy despite the backlash from some in the media for example. Sox fans seem to have little to no sense of what the Sox are trying to do, which is why I made the statement in my column that they have lost credibility with their fan base. I don't expect the organization to have gone into minute detail of their plans but a good overall comment could have helped and then more importantly to stayed true to that. If you are going to rebuild...then rebuild. If you are going to reload, then reload. Fine. I don't think you can "rebuild and contend" at the same time which for years has been a philosophy of Kenny and he has stated that but that's simply my opinion. I think a lot of the questions about who is running the show stem from Hahn's public comments and what he did towards purging the major league roster and trying to patiently rebuild the minor league system and then what took place this off season to go along with Kenny's strident comments in June to the media about Hahn and his staff having to clear everything with him. That starts people wondering, even though that may actually be the status quo for a number of major league teams. Looking back Kenny may have wanted to be more tactful in what he said or perhaps not said anything at all. Mark They have made it clear they intend to compete the next 3 years, so no rebuild. I think Oakland has done the rebuild/compete thing with limited success. The problem the White Sox have is shutting it down the 3 or 4 or 5 seasons minimum it would take for a total overhaul will decrease the fanbase. Look at Cleveland. They sold out for years, then got bad for a while, and now even with a few good teams, can't get anywhere near that level. I think the White Sox would be the same way. To get back to 25k a game after a rebuild would take either a lot of luck or several really good years.

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:41 PM) Simple maybe what Hahn would do on his own is a 180 degrees of what he has to do under KW. I am not saying Hahn would be any better but he needs a chance to show he can do the job or not. Maybe, maybe not. I like Rick Hahn, but if you or anyone thinks he is KW's puppet and is GM in title only, then what ever you are basing he would be good on his own with, is fantasyland. It would just be another case of JR being loyal.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:38 PM) JR has publicly said many times that when he's gone he recommended to his family that they sell the team. He's also said publicly that they have no interest in running the show when he's gone for what that's worth. Mark I have a pretty good source that at least one member of the Reinsdorf clan would love to run the White Sox, and they will still have control of the team when JR is no longer capable.

QUOTE (bmags @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:32 PM) Basically your answer to everything is that no one can be accountable for failure in a large organization because some poster some years ago made an argument against Greg Walker. No. I just don't join lynch mobs. I just wonder why isn't this "historical" lack of offense not blamed on the hitting coach? Why was Ozzie Guillen's stint as a 3rd base coach all the experience anyone really needs? Robin actually did better his first year as a manager with probably a lot less roster. Why were all the moves made this winter praised and Rick Hahn admired, and when they didn't work, then shifted to KW's decisions, and Hahn is nothing but a puppet? And if Rick Hahn is KW's b****, why would anyone think he would have any reasonable chance to succeed as a GM on his own?

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:19 PM) But the one measureable we do have...wins and losses, indicates that what we're doing right now is failing, consistently. Right now yes. But what is the reason? 7 or 8 years ago, the reason the White Sox weren't scoring runs was the hitting coach according to many here. He resigned. Praise the Lord. How is that offense? If KW goes to Toronto, or on a Love Boat cruise, it really wouldn't bother me, but to blame him for this failure is silly. To blame 'loyalty" is silly. There have been plenty of changes in the organization the last several years. Pretty much everyone but KW and Cooper weren't in those positions when the Sox won the WS. I understand writing a blog could be walking on eggshells as the White Sox do grant some favors. But if this article isn't about it's time for JR to sell or KW to take a walk, then it's accuracy is a bit off.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:12 PM) It is possible that turning around a veteran-laden team that has gotten tired of its blowhard, uninterested manager could be a different challenge from building a younger, poorly-taught team that needs to have people step up and reach their talent level to succeed. It could be, but we don't know. Considering how many people here with zero experience seem to know each and every mistake Robin makes (usually in hindsight) it is hard to understand the cry for experience being so important.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:07 PM) Maybe it's time to ask the question again...what haven't they changed? They haven't changed the way they treat minor leaguers, they haven't improved their effectiveness in that, they haven't change the philosophy of buying expensive, mid-level free agents, they haven't changed the philosophy of sacrificing depth for front line guys, they haven't changed their philosophy on defense, they haven't changed anything that allows them to turn what talent they do acquire into big league contributors. Changing the names on the door but continuing to do things that are failing consistently is not likely to change the consistent record of failure. One key thing left out...if it was the owner pushing that, is what the GM's response was? Did the GM think this would work? Did the GM advise against it? Did the GM say that there was a particularly high risk that things would go wrong and it would cause a major setback that would hurt the team even in 2016-2017? Your statements suggest the GM was forced unwillingly into the type of moves that continue failing for this team. If the GM cautioned against those moves in private, which we'll never know, fine that's a logical reason to hold onto him and maybe we'll actually get the owner who learns his lesson. If not, if the GM was on board with them, then the GM endorsed that failure just as much. So if your boss tells you to do something and you say OK, and it doesn't work, you should get fired. If you told your boss it was a big mistake but you will do what he says anyway, then OK? That's ridiculous, especially in a competitive game. JR wants to compete, opened the wallet, and knowing mediocrity can still get you in the playoffs, there isn't one person who would tell JR to hang on to his wallet until Courtney Hawkins and Matt Davidson are ready to be called up to make Tyler Flowers look like the greatest contact hitter of all time.

QUOTE (knightni @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 12:03 PM) The main point in all of this that's missed is that Ventura has no previous coaching experience on any level outside of his kids' teams. Who gets hired to a top level job by any sane/employed person that has zero experience in lower levels to show that they actually know what they're doing? In the major leagues alone, there are several. The guy played MLB for many years, under a lot of different managers. The implication that he was totally blind coming in is just wrong, and his first season, the White Sox played well above expecations. After that, the experience card should have been played out.

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 11:45 AM) Dick: Kenny in my view is a big part of the problem but pinning the entire situation on one guy is wrong in my opinion. Do I think the organization would be better off if JR allows him to leave to say Toronto this off season? Absolutely and many of the off season moves have a Kenny feel to them given his M.O. for over a decade. But that won't solve all the problems, especially in drafting and minor league player development. Kenny doesn't have a lot of hands-on stuff in those areas from what I know. Mark But from the periods you are discussing, they have made changes. Laumann does the draft. Hahn is the GM. Marco Paddy was hired. Ventura is a change. They have done exactly what you are calling for except for one guy, and now, all of a sudden, after a winter of giddiness from Sox fans. Soxfest sellouts, everyone bowing to Hahn, failure happens. Guess what? Now all those moves that couldn't have been more praised by media and the fans, they had nothing to do with Rick Hahn. It clearly was Kenny Williams, the guy that did build the only team that has won in about 100 years, now hasn't a clue, and is forcing Hahn to sign players, and has a gun to JR's head telling him he has to approve the payroll increase. That's fine and dandy, but now let's get back to the facts, which aren't so entertaining. JR was told his team had a lot of holes and was a bit away from contending. JR wanted to win right away and told his guys they needed to do what they could to make that happen. They don't have much they can trade away for anything that helps, but they took that, and got Samardzija. They did the other thing they could do and signed several free agents. This wasn't KW running the ship, this was JR. Maybe KW goes to Toronto or somewhere else this offseason, but he and Hahn did what JR ordered. Baseball, not being like other things in life, sometimes doesn't go as planned no matter how much effort and thought you put into it.

So they changed the manager, and the GM, and admits JR isn't going anywhere...why doesn't this article cut out the BS and directly say what it wants to say? It's obvious Lip wants KW's head.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 10:23 AM) The A's were always insane to think Semien could play at short. If you move him to 2B, you have some value, but his value is easily tradeable for a guy like Shark. No matter what has happened with Shark and our season, I still believe we will get better prospects back for Shark then we gave up (even with Shark's performance being down a bit). We also traded from a surplus (we have a million potential 2B candidates). I agree. Out of Micah, Sanchez, Saladino, Leury...just hope a couple of these guys figure it out and become solid starters. It looks at worst, they all, even Leury, could be bench pieces.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 09:23 AM) Considering your benchline/standard for best position player produced by the White Sox is Gordon Beckham over the last decade...infinite's not a bad choice of words when Semien still comes out well ahead of Alexei production-wise. Gordon Beckham supposedly needs to be released. His WAR -0.1. Eduardo Escobar is the best SS the Sox have produced recently according to you, his WAR -0.5. Facts suck when hyperbole is available. Semien's 0.6 WAR and falling and 28 errors at SS doesn't exactly warrant long term answer at that position. Nor does it suggest he would make a difference on the 2015 White Sox.

QUOTE (harkness @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 06:55 PM) Your going to have to give me some links where its stated that Cooper "makes pitching decisions" as in when to take the pitchers out... I've read that 3 times in this thread and have never in my life heard that. I think Coopers has a lot of input but when it comes to "the Hook" that's Ventura all the way. I read something about how Robin lead the league in "Slow Hooks" last year which is understandable since the bullpen was horrid. (this is from Bill James) it didn't say Cooper led the league in slow hooks... Not everything is Robin's Fault but your relentless defense of him in all things is pretty strange. Robin is one part of the problem but not the entire problem - but he is indeed part of it. Strange? Cooper slams the phone after his ace gives up a 2 run homer and you are the one who comes to the conclusion he wanted him yanked. Yeah Don Cooper, the guy who said anyone who mentions pitch counts are idiots wanted Sale yanked in the 7th inning of a 2-0 game. Get a clue.

There has been some talk about Conor's foot issue. I really think if it was an issue that was lingering and truly causing his poor performance, the White Sox would have DL'd him. The fact that they didn't tells you the foot isn't an issue.

The defense has improved some. Ramirez is back to being a good defender. Eaton has his head out of his butt, and Gillaspie is no longer on the field. The offense is a different story. They still have a tough time scoring, although they are starting to get more hits. It just seems everything stalls once guys get on base.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 07:31 AM) With the '05 reunion and the influx of Royals fans, a high crowd of 33,550 doesn't bode well for the rest of the year. Although they do have upcoming weekend series vs. the Yankees and Cubs which should help. Crain's or somewhere else said the White Sox expect to draw about 1.9 million this season. Considering they know exactly how many tickets are sold, and historically how many tickets will be bought, it probably is a pretty accurate figure.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 21, 2015 -> 04:25 AM) So there you go...if the best of the worst is awful, whose responsibility is that? As has been noted 1,000+ times with Semien, if we can't develop hitters or fielders, what can we do well, as you don't think Cooper has done a good job with the pitching, either? No, the point is Escobar wasn't the best. Players become infinitely better in your mind the secomd they are traded. You were making excuses for Semien and his 28 errors saying the A's see potential and brought in a coach to help him. They brought in a coach because he is awful, and the bat has come back to earth as well. Escobar is a utility guy. Trading him made plenty of sense. It didn't work out, but he will hever be a difference maker.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 09:51 PM) It's arguable. Neither player is Rondon. Garcia has the better arm and slightly more range. Saladino's serviceable, but that doesn't get you in playoff contention. The best guy we've produced is Eduardo Escobar, fwiw. Escobar's UZR/150 -15.1 falls into the "awful" range.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 05:14 PM) Didn't see it...at what point did it happen. Analyzing the play by play, and knowing Coo makes pitching decisions I can't see how you can pin this on Robin. Which is clearly what you'you're trying to do. Sale in a 2-0 game in the 7th, after an 8 day rest,,with a taxed bullpen, right around 100 pitches. How can it be anything but Robin is the biggest idiot? The more opinions I Read, the more I understand why innocent people take plea deals.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Jul 20, 2015 -> 12:08 AM) Then I hope you pop up and disagree every time we hear...."Well, the White Sox could have made a legitimate run at the second wild card....were winners of 9/12, etc., but the All-Star Break came at the most inopportune moment." At any rate, those who witnessed the Jose Paniagua disaster in 2003 might disagree about the Twins seizing momentum from that game on...that was the last victory of the season series, I think. Maybe one more win the final weekend or so when the playoff picture was already decided. Jose Paniagua legend was the biggest piece of BS ever. The only game he appeared in, the White Sox won. Next time the Sox are down 10 and score 4 runs against a team's worst pitcher in garbage time, let's see if anyone talks momentum. It was ludicrous.

How do all the Hahn fans know he is capable of making the correct moves? This past offseason, all he got was praise, and when those moves didn't work out, it is all KW. If Hahn has been KW's assistant for 10 years before becoming his alleged puppet, what is there to suggest he actually know what he is doing? I guess what I don't understsnd is The notion that KW and JR have no clue, but for some reason their underling, the guy with ZERO baseball expereince before being trained by them has this vision of excellence that needs to ne followed. My point is if you think JR and KW are beyonf their expiration date, tthere is no logical reason you should not think the same of Hahn.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Jul 19, 2015 -> 12:01 AM) I don't hate either, hah. Like I said prior to the year, Beckham is rendered useless when you have Tyler Saladino. Tyler Saladino's TJ recovery was more of an issue than I understood. Now he's recovered, Beckham has been worse than his normal terrible self and he should be gone (not that he should ever been signed as I repeatedly said when he was). There is validity to this, but if Saladino is like every other White Sox prospect, at some point in the next few weeks, many will wonder what he is doing in the major leagues. Conor hit really well albeit with zero power the first half of last year, has regressed, and defensively, is beyond awful. Bonifacio pinch hits before him now. In an hour or 2 I might be proven wrong, but it sure does seem Gillaspie has played his way off the White Sox roster.