witesoxfan

Also, the Sox should bring back Juan Uribe because he would be an upgrade on a lot of guys on the offense.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 07:18 PM) I would like to take this time to mention how right I was this offseason. Tyler Flowers is terrible. Just awful. To everyone who argued with me, I was right. You were wrong Too bad they didn't resign him because 33-40 and 8.5 games back puts the Sox right in contention. Resigning AJ was not the right move, so no, I don't agree with you that you're right. If they were in 2nd and 40-33, then yeah, sure, we can have this discussion. Until then, no, you're not right, and now the Sox know that they will need to find an upgrade over Flowers. Goal accomplished.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 07:10 PM) Prediction: Toews gets a goal, Hawks win 3-2. Hawks win Lord of the Flies Cup. f***ing NAILED IT

BOYZZZZZ!

QUOTE (kitekrazy @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 04:44 PM) Unfortunately this organization likes to gamble on those players to satisfy their "lightening in a bottle" epidemic. If LA kicks in about $10 mill a year, then I think you might see a chance. The idea of the Sox taking on Ethier is just not likely whatsoever.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 03:00 PM) That is a plus in Robin's corner. I was just pointing out the results are the same: very very bad baseball (good pitching). It has been, and the team just lacks talent this year. A little blow up will be good for this team in the long run.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 02:54 PM) I also expect flies all over the overhead cameras. That place is apparently quite disgusting. The flies drive me nuts! I saw that the other game was all "WTF?!" when they continued to show those cameras. Time for the Hawks to end this thing.

QUOTE (greg775 @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 02:42 PM) Sox have lost games in all imaginable ways the last month of last season and all this season. There's been no difference between he and Ozzie. Good pitching under both managers; losing games every way possible last 3 years under Ozzie and during Ventura era. Thankfully, Ventura doesn't talk about how much he drinks nor does he throw young pitchers under the bus for failing to hit players nor does he use homosexual slurs against certain sports journalists.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 02:31 PM) How do those percentages/ratios compare to other pitchers? Are you sure those tendencies prove anything that would bode will for him here onward? I don't mean this with any condescending angle but I don't see how these numbers comes into play. You didn't say a Cy Young pitcher but you did try to compare him to Tom Glavine. Who could very well end up in HOF next year... I don't think they are interchangeable. I think Quintana may be the safer pick but Santiago is more dynamic and has better upside. Quintana gives up a lot more flyballs, strikes out a lot less guys, lacks composure, lacks the stuff Hector has, lacks the velocity Hector has and Quintana has been given time to grow under Coop while Hector has not been given the same stability/learning experience. Aside from all of this, Hector has basically aborted his screwball this year. If he could implement that into his game again it could be a huge factor moving forward. Santiago has basically dominated RH bats and had trouble with LH bats. I think being a LHP struggling against LH bats at the moment only leaves room for improvement. It's a lot easier to teach/train a pitcher to retire hitters that bat with their pitching arm rather than the other way around. I didn't compare him to Tom Glavine, I compared the idea of two pitchers living on the outside corner for his entire career, and I even qualified that "comparison" by stating that Quintana might not be able to make a career of it, just merely saying that it can be done. If you have good enough command of your pitches, you can do it. He's not as good as Tom Glavine and I didn't feel the need to clarify such a silly thought. And, right now, the pitchers he reminds me of are John Danks and Mark Buehrle. It's coincidental that both pitched as long as they did for the Sox, but I don't think it's unfair. Buehrle - 50% fastballs, 20% cutters, 20% curveballs, 10% changeups Danks - 50% fastballs, 20% cutters, 20% changeups, 10% curveballs These vary from year to year, but these show their most preferred pitches and it shows that some of Cooper's methodology. QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 02:41 PM) Very fair assessment. Not that we are in a position to choose between the two, I think with the state of the organization, you go with Hector just for his upside alone. I don't think you give up on either one of them. If you can get good value in a trade for one of them, I think you make the trade. I think they are equally as likely to fail as they are to break through. I would say that the best thing to do would be to get them as many starts as possibly between now and the end of the year. If that means using a 6-man rotation, then use a 6-man rotation.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 12:35 PM) Ventura's managing miscues continue to escalate. Yesterday, he's playing steal a base and pinch run in the 7th inning, playing for 1 run. The result: Jordan Danks instead of Viciedo gets the 9th inning at bat. Now that philosophy is questionable for any team, but particularly curious for this team, completely devoid of any bench bat at all (the only close, Keppinger, was also used in the 7th, and to replace a decent hitter). As if Viciedo against Greg Holland would have yielded a different result

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 01:55 PM) That's a bogus argument. The Braves were my favorite team other than the Sox growing up and I watched a lot of Tom Glavine when the Braves were still on TBS. Tom Glavine's circle change was so good he basically pushed the pitch into the mainstream of baseball. His change up was an out pitch. Give me one pitch that Quintana throws that even slightly rivals Glavine's change. You can't. Not to mention Glavine (and Maddux FWIW) got every call on the corners. Sure he's young and has good control but that doesn't make him a better option than Santiago or Johnson in my mind. I don't necessarily dislike Quintana, but he is lacking in important areas. If we had to move a starter other than Peavy, Quintana would be the first one on my wish list. I don't like to bag on our guys (besides Flowers) but I am being realistic here. How sustainable is his success? His out pitch is his fastball. He uses it a little more than half the time (55%), and then plays off of it with a curve (22%), his cutter (15%), and his changeup (8%). He uses the three secondary pitches enough that you have to be anticipating them and then he gets you with the fastball. I'm not saying he will ever be a Cy Young type of pitcher, but to me, he and Santiago are pretty interchangeable. Obviously very different pitchers, but I think given a full season they put up similar numbers.

QUOTE (bbilek1 @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 01:28 PM) I don't see Quintana lasting long. You need to have an out pitch and Quintana doesn't have anything near it. How long is his nibbling/above average control going to let him succeed? He doesn't have stamina and he seems to s*** the bed every time there is an error or a couple base runners in the 5th/6th inning. Composure is definitely an issue with him. Don't you wonder why RV never messes around pulling him? For the initial question here, Tom Glavine made a career of it. Not saying that Quintana can do that, but with stuff like Quintana's, it can be done. Beyond that, he's also still very young and he can improve pretty rapidly. I wouldn't put any of these guys in any particular order though. I don't trade Johnson, and I have Santiago/Quintana higher than Axelrod, but if push came to shove and I had to move one of Santiago and Quintana...I'd take the best offer I got for either of them. As of this moment, they are 3a and 3b to me.

QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 12:02 PM) Pierce is slow. I don't think he adds much value other than some ticket sales on a small market team. Pierce isn't the player he once was, but still put up a PER of 19.1 last year, .559 TS%, and a .502 EFG% last year. If used properly, he would be a huge upgrade to the Bulls and he'd help make Derrick Rose a better player too. You are basically looking at a guy who can do a little bit of everything but nothing particularly well which is a lot better than the Bulls running out guys who are basically specialty players. He'd also prove to be a guy that Butler could learn from as they really do play similar styles of ball. Those two would actually be really good additions and they're familiar running Thibs' defense too. Still, I don't see any way they don't end up in LA with Rivers.

QUOTE (chw42 @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 11:57 AM) There is no way we sign Paul Pierce to play backup SF. No way he agrees to that. And Oladipo with the #1 pick? If nothing else, it would be a very good defensive team. Oh, and if you took in Pierce, he would definitely start with Jimmy Buckets off the bench as the 6th man.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 11:46 AM) MLBTR says the Nats are an aggressive buyer. They could use a SP & it looks like they could use a lefty reliever, too. Who knows their system? What do they give us for Peavy + Thornton? Anything worth trading the Jakemeister? I'm not giving him up easily. Also I think Texas is a great fit for a couple of our players, and I would love to sausage slap the Tiggers in a Reed deal. Rendon would fill a monstrous void at 3B but I find it difficult that they trade him given the start he's had with them. The Sox badly want to sign Brian Goodwin when they drafted him a few years ago. He's a very Mitchell-esque player - decent power, decent speed, ability to draw a walk, strikes out like crazy. Cole and Giolito would also be nice. Not sure how realistic any of that is.

That's a lot of talent you're giving up when McLemore is probably outside of the top 5 next year. With so much uncertainty throughout this draft, I just don't think you want to give up extra picks for a the #1 pick. If Cleveland will do the #1 for Deng, you can't turn it down, but I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to acquire the pick right now.

QUOTE (GoSox05 @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 11:11 AM) @ESPN_Burnside Jonathan Toews not only on the ice for pre-game skate but looking none the worse for wear. View from the peanut gallery to be sure but fwiw. No way it wasn't a stinger. He's fine.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 10:57 AM) Serena Williams and Maria Sharapova have gotten catty with each other and clearly the only way to settle this is naked jello wrestling. I approve this message

If you trade Chris Sale, contract and all, you really need to hold out to a package similar to one the Red Sox apparently offered up for Felix a few years back... http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=73570 RHP Clay Buchholz RHP Daniel Bard RHP Justin Masterson LHP Nick Hagadone RHP Michael Bowden LHP Felix Doubront OF Josh Reddick SS Yamaico Navarro ...was offered for Felix Hernandez. You don't need that much pitching, but you are talking about a #1 starter (Buchholz), a #2 starter (Masterson), a #3-4 starter (Doubront), a pitcher who was, at one point, capable of closing (Bard), a left handed reliever (Hagadone), a righty reliever (Bowden), a lefty power bat (Reddick), and a utility infielder (Navarro). Or you could take the secondary package, which included a proven power hitter (Adrian Gonzalez), a #1 starter (Buchholz), and whatever else they'd include. You always want to listen, but you have to legitimately be getting a monstrosity of a package. That package from the Cardinals might get close, but I think you would need at least one more lower level guy to get it done.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 10:32 AM) I agree that you can go back and find plenty of lopsided trades to support either side, but in that particular trade I think the Padres were looking more to dump salary than to get players that were going to help them win anything. I think you can say the same thing with the Quentin deal though too. The Sox didn't trust his health long-term, he was in his final year before free agency, and the Sox had seen enough from both Viciedo, Rios, and De Aza to move on from him. Rather than keep $7 million in salary in the fold when there's not enough playing time, move it on and get something for it before you lose it.

QUOTE (jthunder93 @ Jun 22, 2013 -> 11:01 PM) Let's see if I can follow this Quentin trade outcome. The initial trade was Quentin for Simon Castro and Pedro Hernandez. Hernandez was traded 7 months later with Eduardo Escobar for Francisco Liriano. White Sox receive: LHP Simón Castro - from San Diego on December 31, 2011 LHP Pedro Hernandez - from San Diego on December 31, 2011 - traded on July 28, 2012 LHP Francisco Liriano - from Minnesota on July 28, 2012 - contract ended White Sox trade: OF Carlos Quentin - traded to San Diego on December 31, 2011 LHP Pedro Hernandez - traded to Minnesota on July 28, 2012 2B Eduardo Escobar - traded to Minnesota on July 28, 2012 Essentially, the Sox traded Quentin, Hernandez, and Escobar for: Castro - who hasn't pitched in the majors yet... Six months of Hernandez - just one horrible start in the majors with the Sox Two months of Liriano - he was 3-2 with a 5.40 ERA with the Sox It was made last year though, and while Castro looks pretty awful now, he's still got a big arm and I think they'll try him out of the bullpen at some point too. For kicks and giggles, we can look at the Peavy trade too. White Sox get: Jake Peavy Padres get: Clayton Richard (4.16 ERA, 88 ERA+, essentially a 4th or 5th starter) Aaron Poreda (pitched in 4 games - 2.1 IP, 1 H, 5 BB, 0 K). Last professional pitching was last year for Pittsburgh Dexter Carter - never got above A-ball. Was released the following season and resigned by the Sox. Pitched in an Indy league last year Adam Russell - pitched 28 innings for the Padres with mixed results. Was included in a trade for SS Jason Bartlett. Bartlett put up a .231/.299/.292/.591 with the Padres and no longer appears to be playing professionally. Like I said, these things happen.

Starting pitching is definitely not a big problem moving forward. This team needs hitters though and in a bad way.

QUOTE (The Ultimate Champion @ Jun 24, 2013 -> 09:54 AM) Probably just getting ahead with the fastball all the time, being predictable & leaving it up in the zone more, then having to use the slider to get the K. Check out the HR rate compared to SV situations. 3 HR vs. 237 batters against 6 HR vs. 170 batters, also the BB rate is a whole lot higher in SV situations than non-SV. He probably mixes things up a lot more in SV situations, also probably is more careful, whereas non-SV he's just getting the ball over the plate, leading to fewer BBs but more hard hit balls. Maybe fangraphs or something shows pitch differentials in splits. I dunno. Don't use that site, I don't have the will to calculate. This seems pretty much like it's on the spot. More aggressive in the zone in non-save situtations because a mistake doesn't hurt you nearly as much.

QUOTE (bighurt4life @ Jun 23, 2013 -> 08:21 PM) Not saying he's the next MB, I just think that pure stuff can only get you so far. I'll always take someone with average stuff and smarts over the guy with the 98 mph fastball who has no clue what he's doing. No single one of Buehrle's pitches are above average, but once his arsenal of pitches is put together, he does have good stuff. If you take away any one of his pitches and his ability to locate it, he goes from a 3.75-4.00 ERA pitcher to a 4.50 ERA pitcher just like that, and if you take away one more beyond that, he's no different than Josh Stewart or Heath Phillips

QUOTE (Swingandalongonetoleft @ Jun 21, 2013 -> 02:07 PM) Worse than Nascar talk, though, is Fantasy Football talk. The world would be a better place without Fantasy Football and any talk pertaining to it. Fantasy football is awesome, but discussing it on ESPN is stupid. 30 for 30's are really the only thing ESPN is good for anymore QUOTE (Disco72 @ Jun 21, 2013 -> 03:01 PM) I hope that there isn't too much sun because I've heard that Gordon Beckham sucks in the day. Classic thread