caulfield12

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 06:43 AM) Ok. So he pointed out they have poor production from a single spot in the batting order. That's his opinion as to why the run production is down. It really has nothing to do with acquiring "lesser talented" players in favor of the model that Oakland follows. Using the phrase "lesser talented" is a bit dangerous. Moss is 8th in the majors in OPS, Seth Smith (the quintessential A's player, even though he's now on the Padres) is 9th and Donaldson is 16th but 2nd in WAR to Tulowitzki. Arguably, Cespedes is as talented as any player in the game. If we use "lesser talented" to mean one or two tool players...or incorrectly assessed...or "undervalued," that's a whole different type of discussion. You're right though, the recent examples of Kazmir and Bartolo Colon (two more undervalued/"lesser talented" starters), when compared to the top of the line free agent line starters, or even Santana/Jimenez/Garza...support/reinforce this prevailing idea that the A's will never never outbid the Yankees/Red Sox/Dodgers. The only counter-example, once again, is Cespedes, and he has a very unique contract that lets him become a free agent after just 4 seasons. http://espn.go.com/blog/sweetspot/post/_/i...eat-team-exists Casey McGehee has been the cleanup hitter behind all-universe Giancarlo Stanton, and while he's driven in 36 runs he also has one home run. The Marlins are trying to compete with a cleanup hitter who has one home run. In 2014, that doesn't even sound that silly, but it's also a warning: He's not going to keep hitting .426 with runners in scoring position. (sounds a lot like Conor Gillaspie!) The Mariners beat the Braves 7-5 as the bullpen tossed six scoreless innings against the hitting-impaired Braves (that's the first-place Braves). The Mariners are 30-28, essentially tied with the 29-27 Orioles for the second wild card. This is a team whose DHs are hitting .189 and its first basemen .218. And they have a better run differential than the Tigers. It's that kind of season. A week ago, every Mets fan was fed up and wanted manager Terry Collins and GM Sandy Alderson fired. The Mets were a win away from reaching .500 on Tuesday before suffering a walk-off loss to the Cubs. Now Mets fans are asking who they should be going after at the trade deadline instead of who they should be trading away. It is that kind of season, where one good week makes a team interesting again. Like the Indians. A little five-game winning streak has pushed them up to 29-30. That means they're in the playoff race. They beat the World Series champion Red Sox, who featured a lineup with first baseman Brock Holt, right fielder Alex Hassan and shortstop Jonathan Herrera. The Red Sox are 27-30 and happy to be there after that 10-game losing streak. And so on. The Royals have two home runs combined from their first basemen and DHs (mostly Eric Hosmer and Billy Butler) and yet they're 28-30 after beating the Cardinals 8-7. That's the 30-29 Cardinals, a team barely better than a team that has two home runs from first base and DH. Yes, that kind of season. Parity or mediocrity? Do you like it? In some ways, isn't this what the sabermetric revolution has wrought? As front offices match each other on multiple fronts -- evaluating players correctly, spending money in an efficient manner -- and Selig has chipped away at some of the financial advantages of the bigger markets, isn't this the inevitable result? That playoff berths will be determined by whether Casey McGehee hits well all season with runners in scoring position? I'm reminded of what a friend told me about the Mets-Phillies games this weekend, when they played consecutive games of 14, 14 and 11 innings. I asked him if it was exciting baseball. "It was terrible baseball," he said. In the midst of all this are the Oakland A's. The A's just creamed the second-place Angels in three straight games and Tuesday night they played a good game at Yankee Stadium, scoring a run in the eighth off nearly untouchable Dellin Betances to tie it and then three more in the 10th. Brandon Moss led off the 10th with a home run, his second of the game and the A's would tack on two more runs. To me, the A's -- even more than the Giants -- are the one team in baseball without an obvious weakness. Moss is a legit masher in the middle of the lineup, with 15 home runs and a .598 slugging percentage. Third baseman Josh Donaldson is an MVP candidate. Scott Kazmir, who pitched well in this game, has been great in the rotation behind Sonny Gray. The defense is solid, the bullpen is good (other than deposed closer Jim Johnson) and the manager doesn't do ridiculous things like bat Endy Chavez leadoff or Wil Nieves second. In this season of parity, we may have just one great team.

QUOTE (ChiSox_Sonix @ Jun 4, 2014 -> 06:30 AM) They are nothing alike. The second bolded part is exactly why they are not alike. Curious as to why they even come up as comparisons to each other. Saladino has a much higher upside, even as a super utility player, than what Escobar brings Not referring to the HISTORICAL, fielding-only version of Escobar, but the .781 OPS, 15 doubles in 130+ ab's version. THIS year. Career-wise, he's at only .646, or basically what Gordon Beckham has produced the past 3 seasons, more or less. A slightly better version of Andy Gonzalez, maybe. But, if you honestly believe Saladino can come up this season and put up those numbers, then he should be starting somewhere in the White Sox line-up on a nearly everyday basis.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 3, 2014 -> 10:35 AM) It's correlated to winning against all teams and pitchers including the bad to average ones. If you take away the bad to average pitchers who give up more walk and hits the average hitter will not fair as well. However, the highly talented player has a better chance. This is what happens in the playoffs. It doesn't always workout of course as all players have bad games and series. However, the Oakland practice of less talented players but with the high OBP and such has a lesser chance to succeed than the talented player. Now in Oakland Beane needs to do this a with his payroll. He needs to take these chances and make the team look good during the season to maximize his earnings from the fan base. This doesn't mean that all teams should adopt this model that do not have his same limitations. Well, one writer with the Detroit Free Press is apparently blaming their playoff problems on two specific positions in the batting order...not pitching, not shaky bullpen or fielding issues. The Tigers are 27th in the majors in OPS (on base plus slugging percentage) from the fifth spot in the batting order. Their RBI production ranks 18th overall in the majors. They rank 28th in RBI production and OPS from the sixth spot. That’s the biggest problem with this team. That’s why they lost Tuesday. It’s why they’ve failed in the playoffs the past two years. As great as the Prince Fielder trade was for the Tigers in unloading a bad contract — as well as acquiring Ian Kinsler — it created another hole in a batting order that already was challenged at providing run production. Victor Martinez has performed at an All-Star level replacing Fielder in the cleanup spot behind Miguel Cabrera. But it created another hole in the lineup that Austin Jackson and others haven’t adequately filled. Blaming the bullpen for the Tigers’ recent inconsistencies might make the panicked feel a little better, but it doesn’t address the real issues facing this team if they’re indeed a serious championship contender. Drew Sharp (freep.com/sports)

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article/mlb/white-...p;vkey=news_mlb MLB.com now has a comprehensive story up about the Sox draft with lots of information and quotes.

QUOTE (ron883 @ Jun 3, 2014 -> 08:01 PM) I read somebody call Saladino a non-prospect recently. The guy is hitting very respectably for a SS. Anybody think he can be a starter in the MLB? He was a Top Ten prospect a couple of seasons ago, when the system was REALLY weak, even compared to now. Sure, he can make it to the big leagues, but I wouldn't compare him favorably to, say, Eduardo Escobar. He's more likely to be the last man on the roster, in Garcia's role. Tyler brings better offense, but not the speed/range/arm. Kind of a toss-up. Versatility is a plus for both...especially being able to play OF as well as INF.

QUOTE (Butter Parque @ Jun 3, 2014 -> 08:56 AM) A's Article I could read about the way the A's go about their business all day everyday. I found it interesting that their draft philosophy completely goes against the philosophy of the White Sox. According to them, they don't care about tools and don't chase potential stars. Unless they're higher contact/pitch count elevating guys with good walk rates/plate discipline. They don't chase after toolsy, athletic guys like Trout or Buxton if their K rates are too high....thinking the majority of those guys bust, and it's better to take elevated floor/lower risk players.

If Flowers looks more like this May version for the remainder of the season, and continues to struggle with passed balls/blocking pitches (erratic at best, but still better than AJ, which isn't saying a whole lot)...then I would rather see Kevan Smith or Phegley in 2015. Almost every position other than SS can get better defensively... By the way, what's his percentage of caught stealing/opportunities compared to 2013? League average?

It's not like platoons can't work. At one point, we were looking at going into the season with DeAza/Viciedo, Dunn/Konerko and maybe Semien/Gillaspie at 3B...and not sure how long Flowers would survive receiving 80% of the playing time, either. That said, none of those hitters are in the same area code right now as the incredible numbers that B.Moss is putting up this season. We also never anticipated having Garcia, Eaton, Gillaspie, Beckham and Abreu all getting injured, and DeAza completely falling off the map.

Or more pitching changes/overmanaging...

Perhaps not being 3rd in the majors in errors and 5th in unearned runs would help as well. I can't remember where I saw something recently about how the White Sox are infamous for making it easier for their hitters to bunt down the lines (since we haven't had any really good bunters since Guillen and Karkovice)...just thought it was funny in this day and age for someone to bring it up like it actually gave the Sox an advantage over the last 20 years or so. For groundskeeper Gene Bossard, lending the Chicago White Sox an underhanded hand was the family business. Gene managed the turf at Comiskey Park from 1940 to 1983, and when he stepped down, his son Roger took over operations. Together, the Bossards were known for doctoring and dampening the diamond to give the Sox a true home field advantage. In fact, opposing teams took to calling the infield "Bossard's Swamp," because Gene kept it watered down to benefit the Sox's sinkerball pitchers and to slow opposing baserunners. Bossard's most infamous trick, however, seems to be inventing the "frozen baseball." Perhaps Roger Bossard explained the phenomenon best: "In the bowels of the old stadium my dad had an old room where the humidifier was constantly going. By leaving the balls in that room for 10 to 14 days, they became a quarter- to a half-ounce heavier." The Sox manager during the frozen ball era in the late 1960s? Number 7 on this list, Eddie Stanky. neatorama.com

White Sox 3rd in the majors in errors and 5th in unearned runs surrendered.

It would also help if Adam Eaton looked like the 2012 version and not the 2013/14 one.

QUOTE (Buehrle>Wood @ Jun 2, 2014 -> 10:21 PM) Well let's hope he didn't catch the yips Between DeAza, Beckham and Lindstrom's injury, our pre-season trade targets aren't doing so hot at the moment. Then you have Belisario not exactly locking down the closer's role, which shouldn't be a surprise, but it's certainly not helping his trade value, either. Beckham's worth SOMETHING still, but it was supposed to be for his defense.

QUOTE (onedude @ Jun 2, 2014 -> 10:19 PM) Has a position player been benched in the middle of an inning before? Wtf Beckham? ? I'm trying to remember if that happened with either Lillibridge or Rios. Maybe...once?

QUOTE (flavum @ Jun 2, 2014 -> 10:17 PM) This game has the potential of being a "beginning of the end" game. I hope it's not. Thought that would be the Danks/Belisario Yankees game. Surprised they've hung so tough without Abreu...up until that inning at least.

Beckham made ANOTHER ERROR? You're kidding, right? He has essentially made 3 errors in one plus inning now. Shades of Steve Sax/Chuck Knoblauch here.

At least Ventura had the sense to remove Quintana after that disastrous inning and not make him go out there again.

White Sox now have the 3rd most errors in MLB after CLE and Washington. Except for Alexei Ramirez and Eaton, not much of an improvement at all on last year's terrible season...and Eaton can't throw consistently.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 2, 2014 -> 07:25 PM) I think it means the Sox see Semien as a super sub with a bat (say: 270/330/400) that you could squint hard and say "ok, if someone gets injured 30 games of this guy in left won't kill us". I dunno, it's arguable that he has 3 more talented players ahead of him already on the 25 man (Conor, Alexei, Gordo) and 2 players more talented than him (Micah and Sanchez) in AAA and the Sox see his future as a super sub. 300 PA a year as a guy that can cover 2B,3B and the Corners is a nice piece, especially at min salary. edit: not to jinx it, but this is the first time in recent memory the Sox actually have enough talented position infield players to where you actually have to feel a bit bad about someone getting sent down. I think it's way too premature to make any observations or comparisons with the latter two...let alone Gillaspie and Beckham, based mostly on the last 2 months.

However, if you put Beane in Chicago, where he would have significant revenue advantages, getting to the playoffs more often would provide him a significant amount of payroll leeway to fix whatever holes they have. Same with Friedman of the Rays. We'll probably never know the answer to how he/they would do with the White Sox. We do, on the other hand, have a pretty good idea what will happen when you have PEDs testing and the inability to spend $175 million or so every season like the Red Sox/Epstein. Mistakes like JD Drew, Julio Lugo, Edgar Renteria, Carl Crawford, Dice-K, Beckett or Lackey weren't automatic death sentences like the Edwin Jackson one. The Red Sox won two World Series during his tenure, but those are achievements that will largely be associated with those year's players and the now departed Terry Francona. Epstein's legacy is far more mixed. He's leaving a mess behind him as he leaves Fenway for Wrigley. Theo will be remembered for his gutsy trading of Nomar and his wooing of Curt Schilling. He'll be remembered as the guy who drafted Dustin Pedroia and Jacoby Ellsbury. But he'll also be the guy linked to a litany of poor free-agency decisions. Did any one tell Theo that the Cubs are plain terrible? He's going to have his work cut out for him in Chicago. If the local boy really wanted to do good, he would not have left. And certainly not now. As it is, few are complaining that he's gone. bleacherreport.com

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jun 2, 2014 -> 06:26 PM) The problem with this is that the theory is based on a player using the averages such as OBP to be succeesful. This works in the regular season where you get to face average or below average pitchers. This type of player has less of a chance in the playoffs against good to great pitchers which the playoff teams typically have. This is why they don't do as well in the playoffs. In a 7 game series the talent wins not playing the averages. Of course, going by the averages occasinally they do win. Right. The only way around this fact is simply to be so good at scouting and drafting/development that you can have 4-5 Josh Donaldson's on your team in their cost-controlled years. Those early 2000's A's teams had the pitching (Mulder/Zito/Hudson) but not quite enough clutch hitting, despite the presence of Giambi, Eric Chavez, Damon, Dye and perennial-MVP candidate Miguel Tejada. Nick Swisher, later on. Part of it was freaky bad luck, or just talent, or however you want to describe it...the Jeter/Jeremy Giambi play at the plate, for example. It's also a bit ironic that those A's and Twins teams of that era, the only team they could beat was each other in the playoffs.

QUOTE (Charlie Haeger's Knuckles @ Jun 2, 2014 -> 06:26 PM) f***ing release/fire whoever threw the ball. With the way the White Sox season has gone so far, that would have us releasing Alexei, arguably our co-MVP so far this year.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 2, 2014 -> 06:04 PM) Oh yea Marte. Also while doing some research for this thread I ran across the name: Mike MacDougal. Also, Nick Massett was a thing for a minute. Coop can't fix'em all -- but overall the Sox have acquired so much low cost above replacement pitching it's kept them afloat and papered over a really bad position player development history. There were actually four guys with differing pedigrees (and potentially-dominant stuff) who "failed" with the White Sox at right around the same time (2007-2008)... Aardsma, MacDougal, Massett and Sisco

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 2, 2014 -> 05:38 PM) Thornton, Sale, Contreras, Hector, Santos, Jenks, Jones, Edwin Jackson off the top of my head. Jackson was actually pretty damn good his season under Cooper then went back to being the exact same guy after he left. Jackson had one really solid season for the Tigers before tapering off and he has been "decent" this year with the Cubs, but he probably owes Cooper about 1/3rd of that deal Epstein gave him. As far as Nate Jones goes, the jury is still out. Another name you could add to the list would be Damaso Marte, FWIW.

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Jun 2, 2014 -> 05:26 PM) I certainly think that you have to have a philosophy as an organization about the type of player you think you can work with and those that you can't. Chicago seemingly just realized they can't take every toolsy football player and teach him baseball. On the flip side, taking hard throwers and turning them into pitchers -- they've had a lot of success there. Agree that you have to give yourself a bunch of lotto tickets and the Sox are doing better with that by signing the latin guys. Only 1 in 20 might pan out but if you strike a superstar on that 1 guy it's totally worth it. In a way, that's what they've been trying to do with all the toolsy outfielders they've drafted but you have to wonder if the Sox are doing something wrong wrt to player development if none of those guys pans out -- certainly Hawkins will be a litmus test. I mean look at the Royals, those guys make the Sox' track record on position player development look downright Bean esque. They had the top rated farm system for seemingly half a decade and hardly any of those guys developed. Examples? I assume you're talking about pitchers we've brought in from other organizations, moreso than the pitchers the White Sox have drafted over the Don Cooper years. Jenks and Santos, Floyd, Danks (pre-surgery), Contreras, Sale? Santiago? (Certainly hasn't worked with Paulino or Cleto). Our biggest success story of the last five years is Quintana, who profiles more like an A's pitching find, even though he does throw 92-93, which is very solid for a lefty.