Tony

So we shouldn't base our views off of one season, but your argument is to base them on....two seasons? lol

Who he hired, and continue to let run his franchise well after any other owner would have fired him for lack of performance.

Ditching money requires you then spend it...

But if you listen to Schffrin, he’ll tell you opposing teams broadcasters say after the series how surprised they are by the White Sox, how competitive they are…?

I know this is all moot because of Jerry, it’s just still maddening they won’t even consider getting creative. They are going to be bad the next few years. Payroll will be low. Sign Crochet for 5 years, contract starts next year. Why not front load it in years 1 and 2, everyone wins, Crochet gets his money, Sox have a 28 year old Crochet when in a perfect world they are ready to compete, and have some added flexibility because he’s on the backend of the deal. This isn’t Fedde, I actually agree with the gregs of the world, I don’t care who you are, they shouldn’t be trying to trade a 25 year old who has been one of the best pitchers in baseball

Lets remove the sexual assault coverup (which is bad enough) He was awful in Chicago as a pure GM. What are they thinking?

They don’t have anything significant to sell…whoops

If Crochet suffers a significant elbow injury in his next start, after throwing more innings in 2024 than he has in 2020,2021,2022 and 2023 combined...you won't believe that sudden influx of innings on his arm, after not throwing anywhere near that amount recently, will have anything to do with it? At @ptatc just pointed out with his running analogy, building up strength and endurance is a real thing. If you don't, your body and muscles are at a higher risk, which doesn't account for the inherited risk there is of any pitcher throwing a baseball with the amount of force needed to get MLB hitters out.

They better play him everyday. Knowing Pedro, Lopez and DeJong will get the majority of starts because they’ve “earned it” but maybe they’ll surprise me

But just like the draft system is different in MLB, so is BPA. BPA in the MLB Draft isn't about the player TODAY. It's about projection and what you believe the player will develop into. To me, BPA has always meant not drafting for a need or position. I've never agreed with the thought of "The system is really thin on catchers, we need to draft one in the first three rounds." You take the the player who you think has the best opportunity to develop into a quality major leaguer. (This doesn't account for player preference based on organizational strengths in development, which I do think is a real thing and if an organization believes they can develop a certain type of player better, I can get on board with that to some degree)

I don't know what this means?

Every pick, at least in the first 10 rounds of the MLB draft, should be BPA. Yes, the Sox need impact bats in their system, but those can be acquired multiple ways. And as so many others have mentioned, what do you trust the Sox developing…bats or arms? So I have very little issue with the choice

Eh, TA sort of broke that streak, albeit short lived.

Your entire argument (tonight) has been Hahn/Williams didn’t identify the right targets in FA. They went after Wheeler aggressively, which would have fundamentally changed what took place for the Sox over the last 3-4 years. They ended up having to settle for a much lesser pitcher in Keuchle, because they were not able to top another offer that was on the table. They identified the right pitcher, they weren’t able to beat out a much better organization in signing the player. Thats on ownership. Additionally, you mention fundamental problems with culture and team makeup. Jerry is the person that kept Hahn and Williams employed WAY past their expiration date, and just hired someone to run his organization that was, wait for it…hired by Hahn and Williams. But sure, the 88 year old Jerry is going to get it right this time, just watch.

But the argument centered around money, and obviously if it were up to Hahn/Williams, they would have paid what was necessary to close the deal. Jerry clearly didn’t want to go there.

oooof, this is not going well for you.

And I'm not giving them a break on Wheeler. The rumor has always been they offered more money, but his wife wanted to stay on the East Coast. That may or may not be true, but if they wanted Wheeler bad enough, I have a very hard time believing more money doesn't get him to Chicago.

Nice job completely ignoring my detailed response to your question. It's part of the reason most "Boomers" don't get the respect they think they deserve. When responded to with a logical response...you don't have one back.

Like Zach Wheeler and Manny Machado, right?

Man alive, if this is what you are hanging your hat on...yikes. These are all below average Major Leaguers.

Welcome to the other side! We'll send your membership card in the mail.

1. Never made a claim that because I have more posts, I'm more baseball savvy. 2. Valuable perceptive? Or valuable perspective? Not really helping the old man argument with that one... 3. In regards to your question on "my timeline" and the "results that I seek" I've said for years now that none of it matters until Jerry is gone. A true, sustainable winner will not be built under Jerry as he won't invest to proper resources into the places investments need to be made, so we can get that out of the way right off the bat. I agree with you that a random playoff team is about the best we can hope for at this current point, similar to what we saw in 2020 and 2021. Currently, the Sox in 2024 are a ways off from that. Spending A LOT of money is the only way the Sox are competitive by 2026, and we can all agree that won't happen, so we're looking at 3-4 years of development and proper asset management before we should expect to see a respectable ball club. (The Sox did their last fire sale in 2016, took them 2017-2018-2019 to build things back up before being competitive in 2020 and 2021) So using that timeline as our baseline...Crochet will no longer be under club control at that point, and Luis Robert would be on the last year of his deal during the 2027 season. If the Sox used both of those players to acquire 4-5 players that would be making their ML debuts in 2026-2027, you have six years of cost control with those players, and ideally can make a run during that window, adding some free agent pieces around the diamond to supplement that core group, like the Sox have done before (Grandal-Hendricks-Keuchel)

Let's just call it for what it is. The argument from a "certain side" of the fan base just lacks any form of critical thinking. It's an incredibly simplistic viewpoint of "These are good players, why trade them, build around them!" but of course that viewpoint leaves out important context like 1. Who the owner is 2. How far away this team is from competing 3. Contract values and length of term and a host of other factors. Some people just don't want to educate themselves on another viewpoint. Not even to change their mind, but to simply understand the other perspective. Greg said "What's wrong with Robert staying on for 2-3 years and making some memories on the South Side?" When users try and explain that no one wants to stay on a perpetual track of losing, but instead build something sustainable, users like greg simply can't grasp how trading Robert can accomplish that. They can't see the forrest through the trees. The biggest disconnect seems to be users like greg seem to think fans want to get rid of someone like Crochet. Because fans are obsessed with a new shinny prospect. When in reality, 99% of White Sox fans want to see Crochet on the White Sox for a long time. But as noted above, fans are smart enough to know the current owner of the White Sox won't pay for a contract extension for Crochet, and given where this organization is in the rebuild process, the next two seasons won't see the Sox contending for a playoff spot. So knowing he won' be re-signed, and the Sox won't field a team around Crochet that can compete while he's under contract...the choice to move him while his value is high seems like an obvious one, but I guess not for some. Lastly, there is something to be said about fans in their 60's, 70's and 80's. Anecdotal, but in my experience both on this forum and in real life, in talking to those Boomers (not a put down) they just want a slightly competitive team. I don't know if it's a "closer to death" thing, but most can't seem to wrap their head around a "tanking process" that will take multiple years, it just doesn't make sense to them and will never accept it, even if it's a harsh reality for most teams in most sports, and has been shown to work.

There is way more truth to this than you realize.

Posted it in the other thread...I have been all over Schriffren this season...but this call made me laugh. It's so weird and stupid and silly...when the team is this bad, I can laugh about it. This doesn't absolve the other bonehead mistakes he's made this season, but this one is harmless, and if the Sox we're 50-20 this season, everyone would have loved it.