soxforlife05

QUOTE (iamshack @ Oct 22, 2016 -> 10:07 PM) I'm still not willing to really judge Hahn. I have no idea which decisions are his and which aren't. The decisions and trades are his but I think the general direction of the team is dictated to him from above. Why would someone want their track record as a GM evaluated on moves that they weren't responsible for?

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Oct 8, 2016 -> 11:03 AM) Agreed. You cannot fail this trade. Boston, in my opinion, is still the best match. I'd be perfectly fine with JBJ starting the deal. JBJ, Moncada, Kopech, Devers and Vazquez would work for me. In this type of deal, you need to get one MLB ready player to start the package. I'd love Betts back in the deal but I don't see them doing that but they may get desperate and feel they can plug in someone else. If they did include Betts, how many players would you get back? 3-4 as opposed to 4-5 if he's not in it? Betts, Moncada, Devers and Kopech would be a dream. Maybe I'm way off on the package I'm just throwing s*** out there so to speak. Question is if Sale got dealt and ya got back a combination of Betts or JBJ, and 3-5 of Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, etc., would that be enough to keep Quintana? No chance they offer Betts. I've already mentioned the problems with JBJ but there's no way they would include Benintendi with him because that would leave 2 holes in their OF. If you ask for JBJ (major league starter for them) and Moncada they are going to put up a ton of resistance to give up more than a Kopech or Vazquez beyond the first 2. Just ask for all their prospects (Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, and maybe Vazquez like you mentioned) and be done with it. The only way it would make sense to keep Quintana is if the team re-signs Frazier to be a 1B after next season. Lineup going into 2018 could look something like this: LF - FA/Cabrera?/Saladino?/Collins? CF - Benintendi RF - Eaton 3B - Devers SS - Anderson 2B - Moncada 1B - Frazier DH - Abreu C - Vazquez Util - Saladino (super utility and plays LF when Collins is catching) C - Collins (backup C but plays most days in LF) Q Rodon FA 2 of Gonzalez/Hansen/Kopech/Fulmer/Adams/2017 #1 Draft Pick Rotation would have a few more holes though. That has the potential to be a really nice lineup. We'd probably need to sign a #3 ish starter in FA. I think in 2019 we could make a run at the division/wild card with that lineup.

The Giants offense was really terrible at times the last month and a half of the season so this doesn't surprise me. I figured the Cubs would handle them with ease, thought the Mets would give them a better run for it. Looks like the Cubs will be in the World Series. A World Series choke would probably set them back more psychologically than if they lost in the NLCS. Seriously, 3 RBI's from the pitchers spot? Ridiculous. Hopefully they use up all their luck early in the playoffs.

QUOTE (Reddy @ Oct 8, 2016 -> 06:05 PM) Personally I don't think the Sox's problem is superstars. We've got enough of those. Our problem is that below the elite tier, we have NOTHING. Our regulars who aren't stars are practically sub-replacement-level. Where our money needs to be invested is not more older, expensive superstars, but in developing the damn farm, drafting well, and signing decent mid tier guys. I know that's what we've tried to do a lot of, but they keep failing. Is it our scouting dept? I dunno. But whatever it is it needs to get fixed, because we'll never win just by throwing more big money for another superstar, if it means another year of 5 replacement level bats in the lineup. We don't have any elite tier players offensively. We have a number of nice players that are capable of putting up one great season but no perennial offensive all stars. Clean out Boston's system: Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Kopech, and some low level high risk high reward prospects (or Vazquez as others have mentioned). Benintendi will be as good if not better than JBJ by the end of next year. There's no reason to ask for a major league regular which will substantially reduce the return. The White Sox need to put some faith in their scouting for a change or make changes if it's not up to par. Demanding major league players makes it look like the team has no confidence in their ability to evaluate young talent. We don't need to deal with Boston, Boston needs to deal with us. Good luck to them if they expect to get an elite SP they desperately need giving up nothing.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 05:37 PM) Yeah, I get it. I just don't know that this makes them go for broke with a guy like Sale or Quintana as opposed to something a bit less expensive. Mid level SP's wouldn't move the needle for them though. They need top flight starters like Sale that can get them big wins in a short postseason series. With Fernandez's passing I don't believe any aces will be on the market besides Sale. No aces in FA either. If Hahn is patient and holds firm he can clean out their system (Moncada, Benintendi, Kopech, Devers). The Red Sox will lose all the leverage they thought they had - it's make this deal or they will keep coming up short the next 2-3 years. They already tried making the patchwork fixes to their pitching staff this year and it's not working. The Red Sox and White Sox are too good of a match for this deal not to happen. Especially if the Indians sweep them on Sunday.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 11:16 PM) Rodon was the #3 pick in the draft and easily the most developed and dominant college pitcher in the draft. As it is, he has a ERA of 4 and a WHIP of 1.4 Is that development? What about the inability to develop anyone beyond Nate Jones in the pen? Or a #4 or #5 starter? What about not letting Junior Guerra pitch and then cutting him? Gonzales is 32 - he was not developed by Cooper. He stabilized Gonzalez into a solid #5. Throw a parade. The staff as a whole has been a little better than average at best, but mostly mediocre, for years. Cooper is a solid coach, but there is something to be said for some fresh thinking. Yes Gonzalez regained velocity which helped him return to form. His velocity was way down in spring training. Unless it was something mechanical it can't be attributed to Cooper. Not sure if Cooper is as great as he used to be but he's gotten an awful lot of credit for the performance of top draft picks. Probably more than deserved. Rodon did spend very little time in the minors though so we need to be patient with him imo.

QUOTE (Dam8610 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 11:20 PM) Why is a Sale trade being discussed in a thread about Cespedes opting out of his current contract? A Sale trade would signal a full rebuild and should logically be followed by trading Q, Frazier, Cabrera, Robertson, Abreu...pretty much everyone for whom a decent return could be had except Eaton, Anderson, and Rodon. Meanwhile, signing Cespedes would be a clear signal that the White Sox intend to compete in 2017. This doesn't make sense. If Cespedes wasn't interested last year what would change things this year? He will have plenty of suitors in a weaker FA class. Upton was rumored to not be interesting in playing here either. Obviously it would be a big splash to sign him but we'd still be 2 players away.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 11:00 PM) It helps that he's not surrounded by garbage. Then again, if he hits in the 2-hole in just about any lineup, he's going to get pitches to hit. Nobody's going to pitch around Bradley to get to Abreu. I think it's obvious that his struggles two and three years ago had to do a lot more with his age and experience level than the composition of his team. No, you get a 2-5 WAR CF in addition to 2-3 of their top prospects (many of whom are Top 50 overall and ML-ready). It's difficult to define the "centerpiece" of that bunch. I'd love to get a package of Moncada, Benintiendi, Devers, and Kopech in return for Sale, but I don't think that's going to happen. (I don't see Dombrowski giving up Benintiendi, given the way he's played this season, and they have a ton of money invested in Moncada already.) IF the Sox could get those four guys, then I don't see the point in Bradley. But I just don't see Dombrowski giving away his farm system to Hahn for Sale. The problem for the Sox in dealing with Boston is that, unlike 15 years ago, they're not desperate for a ring. They have plenty of fans, plenty of money, and they have the player talent to be competitive for another decade. The Sox may be better off doing business with the Yankees. Bradley has never batted top of the order. You really can't make that assumption. In fact he's been almost exclusively a 6-9 hitter in their order his entire career. Benintendi doesn't have as much value to the Red Sox as you think. They won't be constrained financially to sign a corner outfielder if they were to trade him. All of their young superstars are locked up on cheap deals for a long time. He isn't a CF for them so he has less defensive value to Boston than he would have to the White Sox. Moncada is blocked and learning a new position. Devers will be blocked if Moncada sticks at 3B. Kopech is still a ways away from the bigs. There is no reason they shouldn't be willing to move some combination of 4-5 of their top prospects for any reason other than stubbornness. So hope they get swept by CLE so they will find a sense of urgency and stop playing games when the Yankees jump into the Sale sweepstakes this offseason. If they clear out the farm for Sale, sign Encarnacion, and sign a corner OF (Cespedes?) they are all-in and will be the favorites next year to win the World Series.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 10:40 PM) Yeah, what a shocker that he wasn't raking at age 23, and didn't become a really solid ML hitter until he was 25. That's totally abnormal and a sign that he'll definitely be a bust going forward. I never did, but if he's a 3 WAR, he'd be a vast improvement over our current CF options. Throw in 2-3 of Boston's best prospects, and that'd be a decent return for Sale. He didn't start hitting well until Betts and Bogaerts started playing like all-stars and Hanley regained his all star form. Add Pedroia and Ortiz as healthy/steady producers and obviously it's going to help his stats. If you deny that you've lost all credibility. Oh and they dropped him to #9 in the order since he's been slumping for months on end. I don't want a 3 WAR player being a centerpiece in a Sale deal. We need at least a few guys who project as all stars regardless of what lineup they are playing in. We should instead be trusting our major/minor league scouts to make the correct player evaluations on guys like Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, Rodriguez, Kopech, etc. If we don't trust our scouts enough to evaluate minor league talent NO players should be moved off the major league roster until house cleaning is done.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 10:21 PM) You're so sure of this, yet are incapable of offering a shred of supporting evidence. I have no idea which post you're referring to. And that doesn't surprise me, given the content of your remarks. I just said look at his performance when Boston wasn't stacked with all stars. He's been protected hitting in the 6-7 hole all year for Boston because he's batting behind 5 all star caliber players. Of course he's going to see more pitches to hit as a result. You also can't provide a shred of supporting evidence he will be a 5+ WAR player for years to come outside of 1 season.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 10:10 PM) Um, Bradley just turned 26, so it's understandable that he was not that great three or four years ago. That's pretty normal. I love how you cite him being 0-6 in the playoffs as evidence that he's not very good, rather than the previous two seasons of .830+ OPS hitting. Dude was a 5.3 WAR this year and if you think that's comparable to Trayce Thompson, I have to conclude that you don't know what you're talking about. You're also wrong about getting 1-2 useful seasons out of him, as he's under team control through 2020. Yeah I said 5.3 WAR is a career year for him. Jackie Bradley will NEVER top that again in his career. His career will go the way of Chris Young, who ironically is currently on their roster as well. Feel free to add this to your sig. I never compared Trayce Thompson to him, I said they are both examples of selling high on a player. The Sox successfully sold high on him this offseason which was a great move. He has an April birthday he will be 31 at the start of the first season after he hits the FA market. This team won't be rebuilt until 2019-2020 if they go the rebuild route. Stop being so butthurt because I picked apart your post on Ventura. He's a terrible manager and it's a good thing he's gone.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 09:30 PM) Yeah, it'd really suck to get a 26-year-old CF who can hit in the 2-spot, who's put up an .830 OPS in each of the past two seasons, and is under team control through 2020. If I'm dealing Sale, I want at least one proven young major-leaguer. Bradley and Betts are the best two fits for the Sox, and Bradley is going to be the more realistic centerpiece. I don't want to buy high on a guy having a career year who looked like a bust with a large sample size before that. He's having a better year because that lineup is stacked and he's getting more hittable pitches as a result. He'd revert to being terrible if he came here like he was when Boston was losing a few years ago. He disappears for months at a time with sub .200 batting averages he's not a guy who's capable of carrying this lineup. Selling high on guys like Trayce Thompson, Bradley are the type of moves that make sense and how you build a championship team with payroll constraints. Billy Beane is the master of this. This team bought high on Samardzija, Swisher, Koch, need I go on? So far he's been a complete bust this year in the playoffs (0-6 with 5 k's) and has a very inconsistent track record as a hitter year to year and month to month. And we'd only get 1 maybe 2 useful seasons out of him before he leaves since I doubt this team pays up for a guy at the end of his prime years.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 7, 2016 -> 06:39 PM) With the way that Benintiendi has been raking, I think that they'll be reluctant to move him. From what I've heard, they've been reluctant to move Moncada as well. For Sale alone, I think that the Sox could realistically get Bradley, Devers, and Kopech, and possibly more. That would fill a need in CF, an upcoming need at 3B, and would replace Sale's loss with another pitcher. Will be very upset if Bradley is the centerpiece. If Boston gets swept they will feel the pressure to make a splash.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 07:16 PM) I said earlier a trade of Sale to Boston for Benintendi, Kopeck, Devers, Vazquez, and one more probably does it for me. I really want Moncada but I'm not sure they do it. Now I do wonder if CWS stick to wanting Betts or Bradley in the deal and expand the trade to include Melky to help the loss of one of those two. It's going to be fun debating and creating mocks for these trades. Or I at least have fun with these. I could see a mega deal involving Sale, Melky and Robertson (to help dump his contract combined with Kimbrel's struggles) for JBJ, Moncada or Benintendi, Kopeck, Devers, Vasquez, Rodriguez, Swihart. That's crazy but I could see a mega deal like that happening if Boston fizzles in the playoffs and I hope they do. I can get on board with that. I would probably ask for the first deal minus Vazquez and plus Moncada but potentially settle for something like what you have listed. That fills two huge holes (CF and 3B) that would be extremely difficult to fill within the organization at this time. I guess you take the great framing and defense with Vazquez and hope he figures how to hit with 2-3 years of being the every day catcher. Collins would be the backup plan for catcher and I'm sure we could find him another position if Vazquez worked out (try him in LF early in his career and later at 1B/DH if Abreu leaves after his contract).

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 01:53 PM) If the Sox can get a budding 3B star via trade this winter, I wouldn't have a problem with that. But it would have to be a very highly-regarded 3B prospect, as I don't see anybody in their farm system that they can fall back on. The Sox have had a ton of difficulty filling this position since Crede and it would be bad for them to go down that road again. My major caveat is that I expect the Sox to get ML-ready or near-ML-ready prospects to fill positions of need in return for somebody like Sale. That would mean that they're competitive by 2019, in which case Frazier would still be close enough to his prime to be useful in that lineup. Devers is the guy they should target. He should be ready by 2018. Then if they still want Frazier they can sign him to be a 1B and move Abreu's bad defense to DH. Devers fills the hole at 3B and Benintendi can take over CF which keeps Eaton's ++ defense in RF.

QUOTE (CanOfCorn @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 10:18 AM) If the Sox were successful, FO decisions wouldn't be slammed. End of story. Go back and look at the Shields thread. There was plenty of opposition to the move at the time. I said Latos and Gonzalez were both better than Shields.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 2, 2016 -> 10:10 PM) Overall, I think that Robin is a decent and classy guy who was limited by a bad farm/player development system. You should've probably just kept it at that. QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 2, 2016 -> 10:10 PM) I don't think that anybody will ever accuse Robin of being a super-exceptional leader of men, but I think that he took way too much criticism from the fans. He led the team to the worst winning pct in franchise history. The criticism is well deserved. QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 2, 2016 -> 10:10 PM) His job was to fill out the lineup card, handle the pitching staff, diffuse tension in the clubhouse, and get the guys to play for him. While I occasionally didn't agree with some of his bullpen moves and never understood his seeming lack of acknowledgement of the importance of OBP in the 2-hole, I thought that he did a semi-decent job of in-game management. There were plenty of mistakes he made he never learned from. I'm not about to go back through every game thread to find poor in game decisions he made but they were common. QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 2, 2016 -> 10:10 PM) I never saw guys dogging it out there, which is more than I can say for some other teams. Navarro dogged it plenty of times. Lengthy DL stints by certain players. QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 2, 2016 -> 10:10 PM) He did a reasonable job of managing the mental-midget tandem of Sale and LaRoche, as well as the Executive VP who seems to go out of his way to get into fights with players. He was a big part of the reason those two situations became issues that ended up being covered by the national media. Too passive to take charge and put guys in their place. It's why all the players will always say he's a good guy. He wouldn't tell them anything they don't want to hear.

QUOTE (Lemon_44 @ Oct 2, 2016 -> 12:40 AM) Personally, I like KW and his try to win every year mentality. To me, that's what you should do. His biggest mistake was not getting along with, or coming to some kind of workable situation with Guillen. He let it become personal and that's started the downfall. As for his "bad" trades. The only one of significance I can think of is the Swisher trade. There may be some more that have slipped my mind but nothing of significance. I know there was a lot of much wasted hand-wringing over Daniel Hudson and Holmberg but those guys really did nothing. Well he traded Gio Gonzalez twice..

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Oct 1, 2016 -> 06:09 PM) Renteria has been praised for his work with young players. Bringing Robin back and taking a step back is only going to make the people who think managers are worth 15 wins a season more frothy at the mouth. Another sign of a rebuild. Given the half assed approach in attempting to contend by the front office we can't afford to give up even 1 win because of a poor manager.

A move that should have been made earlier this season. But better late than never.

That's an interesting package for Q. I think we should opt for quality over quantity though. I'd rather get E Rod, Benintendi, Devers. You figure we let Frazier go or re-sign him to be a 1B/DH for 2018 and bring Devers up to be our 3B starting in 2018.

QUOTE (SpankyEaton @ Oct 1, 2016 -> 04:48 PM) Hopefully Benetti doesn't leave the organization for another job because it's not full time. I hope he does

QUOTE (chitownsportsfan @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 08:06 PM) I can honestly say that I forgot all about the hot start. That is how disconnected I am. When I read your post just now I remembered how I felt during that start and how excited I was for the season. SOB. I hope you're not being sarcastic but I can't tell. No reason a team with Sale, Q, and Rodon can't play .500 ball the rest of the season from that point.

QUOTE (BrianAnderson @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 01:55 PM) Honest question, and not to get off topic, what do you think Joe Maddon would have done different. I am not in total agreement, but some agreement that he could or would have squeezed a few more wins out of this team. I'd think Saladino would have had a lot more playing time on this team all over the field. I'd think that we'd have way less Avi Garcia anywhere. And that there'd be more shifting of Lawrie and Frazier around the diamond. Like for example Abreu at DH, Frazier at 1B, Saladino at 3B some nights. Or even Melky at DH, Saladino in the OF, etc. Other than that, I'm not sure than morale how much he would have improved the team. Maybe instead of our record now we are like the Royals at just above .500. Just my completely unjusitifed stab at a guess. Do you even watch the games? Ventura is easily one of the worst in game managers in the league. And his team choked away a 23-10 start after one bad loss. After a start like that there is no excuse to not be in the wild card hunt until the last day of the season at a minimum.

QUOTE (Rowand44 @ Sep 28, 2016 -> 01:27 PM) He's the least of our problems in my mind as I'm never going to go crazy one way or another about a manager. Still, this organization is an absolute mess and you need to start to change some things. Fair or not that has to start with the guy in charge of the players. I'm also not surprised by this at all, not sure why anyone would be to be completely honest. Nothing is going to change with this organization. How can you expect this organization to fix big problems if they can't even fix what you claim to be a small one?