Tyler Saladino

[greg775]

I posted their career PA's to show that one is a finished product and the other is not despite their similar age.

 

And I would have expected a lot more from you than simply comparing career wRC+ of a guy who has played 4+ full seasons vs. a guy with less one full season. One guy is improving and the other guy is arguably regressing. And take out Lawrie's ridiculous cup of coffee, which clearly has been an abberation, and he's closer to a 96 wRC+ hitter for his career (or basically where Saladino is right now). Factor in 2B defense, where Saladino has been the superior player this season (SSS) and I'm not sure what the argument is.

 

Seems like you're expecting Saladino to regress for some reason and I can't understand why.

I just hope we get rid of Lawrie. Saladino is ready.

[Balta1701]

I posted their career PA's to show that one is a finished product and the other is not despite their similar age.

 

And I would have expected a lot more from you than simply comparing career wRC+ of a guy who has played 4+ full seasons vs. a guy with less one full season. One guy is improving and the other guy is arguably regressing. And take out Lawrie's ridiculous cup of coffee, which clearly has been an abberation, and he's closer to a 96 wRC+ hitter for his career (or basically where Saladino is right now). Factor in 2B defense, where Saladino has been the superior player this season (SSS) and I'm not sure what the argument is.

 

Seems like you're expecting Saladino to regress for some reason and I can't understand why.

I don't know how you can see an argument that Lawrie is regressing. He looks to me like 100% the most consistent player I've ever seen. His OPS since that cup of coffee you refer to is .718, and it's .723 this season. His OBP outside of that season is .310, and in 2016 it's .310. He's hit the disabled list once every year other than 2015, and he hit the disabled list once in 2016.

 

He's good for something in the range of 100-140 games, and he'll put up a .720 OPS. He's the most consistent ballplayer I've seen in years.

[Y2Jimmy0]

It's amazing the amount of people that in here clamoring for a .750 .OPS player. He's fine. Not special by any means though and would be best suited in a utility role.

[Hatchetman]

Second Basemen: 300+ PAs, 32 total

 

 

Rank Name wRC+ WAR

1 Daniel Murphy 158 5.4

2 Jose Altuve 152 6.4

3 Matt Carpenter 143 3.3

4 Brian Dozier 140 5.7

5 Robinson Cano 137 5.2

 

26 Brett Lawrie 91 0.8

Edited September 13, 2016 by Hatchetman

[Quin]

I just get mad when people can't see what I see: In Saladino I see a regular, everyday player. He's more than some once a week utility guy.

 

1) Super-utility implies he's essentially playing as frequently as the starters, but rotating. This keeps everyone fresh and get's Saladino at-bats while also keeping him as a defensive sub or pinch runner when he sits.

 

2) You just immediately throw people that follow the draft and advanced metrics as being anti-Saladino. That's hogwash. "Draftniks" would probably be FutureSox people, who would likely be the most bullish on Saladino and have followed him for years. Advanced metrics last year showed us that Saladino has value, especially with the glove.

[Quin]

I just get mad when people can't see what I see: In Saladino I see a regular, everyday player. He's more than some once a week utility guy.

 

1) Super-utility implies he's essentially playing as frequently as the starters, but rotating. This keeps everyone fresh and get's Saladino at-bats while also keeping him as a defensive sub or pinch runner when he sits.

 

2) You just immediately throw people that follow the draft and advanced metrics as being anti-Saladino. That's hogwash. "Draftniks" would probably be FutureSox people, who would likely be the most bullish on Saladino and have followed him for years. Advanced metrics last year showed us that Saladino has value, especially with the glove.

[bmags]

It's amazing the amount of people that in here clamoring for a .750 .OPS player. He's fine. Not special by any means though and would be best suited in a utility role.

 

.750 OPS players that can play 4 infield positions are valuable, especially when you have 4 more years of them for dirt cheap. This is the exact type of player we've been able to supplement into our lineup for the last decade.

[southsider2k5]

It's amazing the amount of people that in here clamoring for a .750 .OPS player. He's fine. Not special by any means though and would be best suited in a utility role.

 

The MLB average for 2B in 2016 is .773. Throw into that Saladino ranks 22nd in all 2Bs in defensive WAR according to fangraphs while only playing 87 games so far this year means you are looking at a middle of the pack second baseman as is. Sure if a stud comes along you don't turn it down, but if this really is Tyler Saladino, he is a pretty acceptable player, assuming he doesn't improve or fall off. If he continues to improve you have a top 10 2B.

[bmags]

The MLB average for 2B in 2016 is .773. Throw into that Saladino ranks 22nd in all 2Bs in defensive WAR according to fangraphs while only playing 87 games so far this year means you are looking at a middle of the pack second baseman as is. Sure if a stud comes along you don't turn it down, but if this really is Tyler Saladino, he is a pretty acceptable player, assuming he doesn't improve or fall off. If he continues to improve you have a top 10 2B.

 

Further - losing your starting second baseman, and being able to recreate that production, is the depth that playoff teams require (see Jose Ramirez).

 

People should be excited about that.

[elrockinMT]

The real question isn't what to do with Saladino but can Lawrie recover from what appears to be a very serious injury. Lawrie proved his worth to the Sox and so did Saladino. Having them both on the team is a very good thing for next year

Edited September 13, 2016 by elrockinMT

[bmags]

The real question isn't what to do with Saladino but can Lawrie recover from what appears to be a very serious injury. Lawrie proved his worth to the Sox and so did Saladino. Having them both on the team is a very good thing for next year

 

I thought he just kept reaggravating a hammy. Is there an update?

[Chicago White Sox]

I don't know how you can see an argument that Lawrie is regressing. He looks to me like 100% the most consistent player I've ever seen. His OPS since that cup of coffee you refer to is .718, and it's .723 this season. His OBP outside of that season is .310, and in 2016 it's .310. He's hit the disabled list once every year other than 2015, and he hit the disabled list once in 2016.

 

He's good for something in the range of 100-140 games, and he'll put up a .720 OPS. He's the most consistent ballplayer I've seen in years.

You're using a stat that isn't park adjusted. His wRC+ has gone from 103 to 95 to 91 over the past three years, while his K rate has gone from 17.4% to 23.9% to 28.4% during this same time period. His BB rate is up a little bit this year, but that appears to be the result of a flukey April & May and it was dropping significantly before he got injured. The power numbers haven't really fluctuated much either. Like I said, I think an argument can be made he's regressing and base case scenario you can say he is what he is.

 

And I'm not sure how using a 40 game range of missed playing time demonstrates consistency, but you do bring up another mark against him which is that he's frequently hurt. We're lucky we have a quality backup in Saladino, because if we did not, the overall production at the position could be drained by being forced to play replacement level players there more than you'd ideally like.

 

Outside of slightly above average power for a 2B, I'm not sure what the big draw is to be honest. There is a reason Beane paid a hefty price for him and promptly gave him away. The dude is a physical freak, but a pretty mediocre baseball player. With only one year left of control and a better option already on the roster, I don't see the reason to keep him another year.

[caulfield12]

You're using a stat that isn't park adjusted. His wRC+ has gone from 103 to 95 to 91 over the past three years, while his K rate has gone from 17.4% to 23.9% to 28.4% during this same time period. His BB rate is up a little bit this year, but that appears to be the result of a flukey April & May and it was dropping significantly before he got injured. The power numbers haven't really fluctuated much either. Like I said, I think an argument can be made he's regressing and base case scenario you can say he is what he is.

 

And I'm not sure how using a 40 game range of missed playing time demonstrates consistency, but you do bring up another mark against him which is that he's frequently hurt. We're lucky we have a quality backup in Saladino, because if we did not, the overall production at the position could be drained by being forced to play replacement level players there more than you'd ideally like.

 

Outside of slightly above average power for a 2B, I'm not sure what the big draw is to be honest. There is a reason Beane paid a hefty price for him and promptly gave him away. The dude is a physical freak, but a pretty mediocre baseball player. With only one year left of control and a better option already on the roster, I don't see the reason to keep him another year.

 

He does play with a lot of energy, swagger and flair...Hawk overrated it early, but it's not a negligible factor, either.

 

[Chicago White Sox]

He does play with a lot of energy, swagger and flair...Hawk overrated it early, but it's not a negligible factor, either.

I love those traits and he can be fun to watch, but you don't make roster regions over things like swagger and flair.

[Quin]

I love those traits and he can be fun to watch, but you don't make roster regions over things like swagger and flair.

 

If we go off of that, Brett Lawrie is starting every position.

[greg775]

It's amazing the amount of people that in here clamoring for a .750 .OPS player. He's fine. Not special by any means though and would be best suited in a utility role.

The guy was hitting .280 before tonight. Limited at bats. How many players nowadays can hit? Saladino can hit. Name five second basemen who are or would be better hitters than Saladino over 550 at bats?

 

1) Super-utility implies he's essentially playing as frequently as the starters, but rotating. This keeps everyone fresh and get's Saladino at-bats while also keeping him as a defensive sub or pinch runner when he sits.

 

2) You just immediately throw people that follow the draft and advanced metrics as being anti-Saladino. That's hogwash. "Draftniks" would probably be FutureSox people, who would likely be the most bullish on Saladino and have followed him for years. Advanced metrics last year showed us that Saladino has value, especially with the glove.

1. The Sox never have a super utility guy that plays as much as the regulars. Saladino was completely buried on the bench by Robin earlier on, before the injury. He was the forgotten man, in fact.

2. I haven't seen the metrics people speaking up for Saladino much. I'm pretty much reading from everybody that he's a sub at best.

[LittleHurt05]

I just hope we get rid of Lawrie. Saladino is ready.

 

Your hatred for Lawrie rivals your hatred of Alex Rios and Hillary Clinton.

[Quin]

The guy was hitting .280 before tonight. Limited at bats. How many players nowadays can hit? Saladino can hit. Name five second basemen who are or would be better hitters than Saladino over 550 at bats?

 

 

1. The Sox never have a super utility guy that plays as much as the regulars. Saladino was completely buried on the bench by Robin earlier on, before the injury. He was the forgotten man, in fact.

2. I haven't seen the metrics people speaking up for Saladino much. I'm pretty much reading from everybody that he's a sub at best.

 

Murphy, Altuve, Cano, Odor, LeMahieu, Kipnis, Kinsler, Dozier, Forsythe, Zobrist

 

To name a few.

 

As for your other points...

 

1) People are advocating him as a super-sub. Robin may be gone.

 

2) That's because when people have dissenting opinions or you think they do, you cover your eyes and ears and ignore it.

[Vance Law]

So you posted their ages and career PA, and then immediately put their 2016 numbers below them?

 

For anyone who is justifiably confused, Lawrie's career wRC+ is 100, and Saladino's is 80. And that is why Lawrie will get the first chance to start over Saladino.

 

That was a confusing way of displaying Saladino's superior offense this year. Yes, Lawrie has better career numbers. And Saladino is the notably better defensive player. And Lawrie will cost, what? $5.5, $6 million next year? And the team, if going for it, will need to spend on a catcher, an outfielder or 1B/DH, a starting pitcher and maybe bullpen. Those are some reasons, along with Lawrie's injury history, for not bringing him back and going with Saladino next year.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

Shiiiiiiit. I was apparently sitting near Tyler's girlfriend and their dog Luna tonight. I didn't realize until after the game when a mutual friend of mine and Tyler's saw my snap and told me I was sitting right by her. Wish I would have introduced myself. My buddy had some interesting things/stories to tell me about Sale and Melky from this summer.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Shiiiiiiit. I was apparently sitting near Tyler's girlfriend and their dog Luna tonight. I didn't realize until after the game when a mutual friend of mine and Tyler's saw my snap and told me I was sitting right by her. Wish I would have introduced myself. My buddy had some interesting things/stories to tell me about Sale and Melky from this summer.

Well ?

[GreenSox]

Lawrie's numbers aren't even that noticeably better- and Saladino has yet to have a full season starting and improved a lot in his second semi-season.

I'd like to see Leury get work in September. He could really be the super sub ( OF and IF) if he could hit a little, which he finally did this season in AAA. Pitching is thinner out in Sep so numbers are inflated (just as they are for Sox starters who can suddenly hit) but it will give the team an idea.

[Eminor3rd]

I posted their career PA's to show that one is a finished product and the other is not despite their similar age.

 

And I would have expected a lot more from you than simply comparing career wRC+ of a guy who has played 4+ full seasons vs. a guy with less one full season. One guy is improving and the other guy is arguably regressing. And take out Lawrie's ridiculous cup of coffee, which clearly has been an abberation, and he's closer to a 96 wRC+ hitter for his career (or basically where Saladino is right now). Factor in 2B defense, where Saladino has been the superior player this season (SSS) and I'm not sure what the argument is.

 

Seems like you're expecting Saladino to regress for some reason and I can't understand why.

 

I'm not expecting Saladino to do anything, I'm just telling you why Lawrie is the de facto starter.

[Dick Allen]

Lawrie's numbers aren't even that noticeably better- and Saladino has yet to have a full season starting and improved a lot in his second semi-season.

I'd like to see Leury get work in September. He could really be the super sub ( OF and IF) if he could hit a little, which he finally did this season in AAA. Pitching is thinner out in Sep so numbers are inflated (just as they are for Sox starters who can suddenly hit) but it will give the team an idea.

So you are saying Sox veterans are padding their stats against thinner September pitching (although playing contenders, I don't agree) but on the other hand have been whining about not playing these AAA players so you can see what you have. It really makes no sense.

[southsider2k5]

Lawrie's numbers aren't even that noticeably better- and Saladino has yet to have a full season starting and improved a lot in his second semi-season.

I'd like to see Leury get work in September. He could really be the super sub ( OF and IF) if he could hit a little, which he finally did this season in AAA. Pitching is thinner out in Sep so numbers are inflated (just as they are for Sox starters who can suddenly hit) but it will give the team an idea.

 

The last two days the White Sox got fat against Trever Bauer and Carlos Carrasco.