The value is they paid $62 million for the cheap years of service. If he turns into a star, they re-coup their investment easily. They get Sale for 3 years. To re-coup the $100 million can be done, but the overall surplus value is going to go down if Moncada is great. I really doubt other teams would have traded him had they made the same investment, but a lot of things lined up. Sale is cheap and great, and DD wasn't around when Moncada was added to their organization.

 

I doubt most teams would have traded Moncada, except the Red Sox

 

He would be an "untouchable" is any other system, lets be honest

I said this a few pages back, but how long would people have been willing to keep negotiating with Boston over this deal, and would they have been OK with it collapsing because of asking too much if that had been the case? Keep in mind, we had two other deals collapse over the winter at the ownership level.

I said this a few pages back, but how long would people have been willing to keep negotiating with Boston over this deal, and would they have been OK with it collapsing because of asking too much if that had been the case? Keep in mind, we had two other deals collapse over the winter at the ownership level.

That's the thing. I wonder if the Sox played the hardball with this deal some wanted how they would feel if the trade wasn't made and it was reported they could have received the same 4 players for him.

 

It's almost assured some of these guys will fail, and some lesser Red Sox prospects will have some success at some point. So the argument the Sox could have received more is probably valid, at least in a future performance sense. In the sense it would affect their prospect rankings, we will never know most likely.

That's the thing. I wonder if the Sox played the hardball with this deal some wanted how they would feel if the trade wasn't made and it was reported they could have received the same 4 players for him.

 

It's almost assured some of these guys will fail, and some lesser Red Sox prospects will have some success at some point. So the argument the Sox could have received more is probably valid, at least in a future performance sense. In the sense it would affect their prospect rankings, we will never know most likely.

 

Also keep in mind that the Eaton deal was being finished up and negotiated at almost exactly the same time. What happens to the public view of this stuff if ONLY the Eaton deal had gotten done? How about if Boston drops out and Sale goes to the Nationals, but the Eaton trade doesn't happen?

The value is they paid $62 million for the cheap years of service. If he turns into a star, they re-coup their investment easily. They get Sale for 3 years. To re-coup the $100 million can be done, but the overall surplus value is going to go down if Moncada is great. I really doubt other teams would have traded him had they made the same investment, but a lot of things lined up. Sale is cheap and great, and DD wasn't around when Moncada was added to their organization.

They paid $62M for Moncada because that's what the going rate was at the time for a potential cost-controlled superstar in an unconstrained market. I'm still not understanding why you think that makes him more valuable Benintendi, who was a victim of a constrained marketplace like the vast majority of prospects.

 

And below is a comment from DD on how they evaluated the potential trade. They completely ignored sunk costs and focused exclusively on future production vs. future costs. They actually felt that in a vacuum 12+ cost-controlled years of Moncada & Kopech was more valuable than three years of Chris Sale. However, they were willing to forgoe some projected surplus value because of how well he fit into their competitive window. That's the proper way of evaluating a decision like this. Worrying about your cost-basis in asset is not.

 

“We did some analytical work on Sunday night for Monday, that if you look at the value of players, Chris Sale’s three years was not going to add up to [the value of having Moncada and Kopech under team contractual control for six big league seasons each],” said Dombrowski.

They paid $62M for Moncada because that's what the going rate was at the time for a potential cost-controlled superstar in an unconstrained market. I'm still not understanding why you think that makes him more valuable Benintendi, who was a victim of a constrained marketplace like the vast majority of prospects.

 

And below is a comment from DD on how they evaluated the potential trade. They completely ignored sunk costs and focused exclusively on future production vs. future costs. They actually felt that in a vacuum 12+ cost-controlled years of Moncada & Kopech was more valuable than three years of Chris Sale. However, they were willing to forgoe some projected surplus value because of how well he fit into their competitive window. That's the proper way of evaluating a decision like this. Worrying about your cost-basis in asset is not.

I never mentioned Benitendi. I'm just mentioning Moncada. Yes, the cost is sunk but it's like they paid in advance. Most teams wouldn't trade Yoan Moncada away even for Chris Sale had they invested the money in him, he wasn't a big flop and is maybe a year, if that, from contrubting, and many evaluators see him as a future star.

 

Who knows, maybe if Benitendi struggled in 30 ABs and Moncada looked really good during his September call up, Benitendi is a White Sox.

 

It could be Moncada being questionable at best to be a contributor in 2017 was what DD was looking at. He's never met a prospect he couldn't trade, and this trade pretty much proved it.

I said this a few pages back, but how long would people have been willing to keep negotiating with Boston over this deal, and would they have been OK with it collapsing because of asking too much if that had been the case? Keep in mind, we had two other deals collapse over the winter at the ownership level.

Look, I'm good with what Hahn landed for Sale. I just think it's fair to point out we may have left a little bit on the table. To your point, there are other factors at play with these types of discussions. I'm willing to give Hahn the benefit of the doubt here that he made the right decision on how much caving was acceptable from his original ask. And I think it's very probable the Sox were higher on Basabe & Diaz than many of the national publications. Having said that, I do think DD would have given up a bit more if we pushed it just a little bit harder.

I can't believe we are beating this horse 3+ months later.

I never mentioned Benitendi. I'm just mentioning Moncada. Yes, the cost is sunk but it's like they paid in advance. Most teams wouldn't trade Yoan Moncada away even for Chris Sale had they invested the money in him, he wasn't a big flop and is maybe a year, if that, from contrubting, and many evaluators see him as a future star.

 

Who knows, maybe if Benitendi struggled in 30 ABs and Moncada looked really good during his September call up, Benitendi is a White Sox.

 

It could be Moncada being questionable at best to be a contributor in 2017 was what DD was looking at. He's never met a prospect he couldn't trade, and this trade pretty much proved it.

You never mentioned Benintendi, but by your logic he should be less valuable because he cost only $3.6M while Moncada cost $62M. You said the Red Sox were effectively paying $62M on top of Sale's salary. That's the way you said they should look at it. However, if they traded Benintendi, they would have only paid the 3.6M on top of Sale's salary. Given they're generally considered similar caliber prospects, your logic would suggest Benintendi was the far less valuable player for the Red Sox.

I never mentioned Benitendi. I'm just mentioning Moncada. Yes, the cost is sunk but it's like they paid in advance. Most teams wouldn't trade Yoan Moncada away even for Chris Sale had they invested the money in him, he wasn't a big flop and is maybe a year, if that, from contrubting, and many evaluators see him as a future star.

 

Who knows, maybe if Benitendi struggled in 30 ABs and Moncada looked really good during his September call up, Benitendi is a White Sox.

 

It could be Moncada being questionable at best to be a contributor in 2017 was what DD was looking at. He's never met a prospect he couldn't trade, and this trade pretty much proved it.

 

The interesting thing is that all of the cost isn't sunk. Boston is still picking up some later piece of the signing bonus.

I can't believe we are beating this horse 3+ months later.

 

This is Soxtalk. There are people beating 40 year old horses.

This is Soxtalk. There are people beating 40 year old horses.

 

We should have a forum for "Beating a Dead Horse Talk".

We should have a forum for "Beating a Dead Horse Talk".

I'm offended by that term. It should be called Dirt surfing equine Talk

Watching the Red Sox game, Sale pitching, the dude is a monster. Leading the league in K's and already has 4 in 2 innings, era under 1, pinpoint control and deception. He looks better now than he did. Moncada and Kopech better be worth what we gave up, especially considering his contract.

Sale's throwing harder this year than last. Never did understand the approach last year

Sale's throwing harder this year than last. Never did understand the approach last year

He had his career high in starts and innings pitched last year and I believe that was the idea. Also most complete games.

Chris Sale is good guys, I'm pretty shocked myself.

I did a few searches, stats wise, Chris Sale may be THE BEST first half pitcher in baseball history, as in better than Pedro or Kershaw.

Great game at Fenway. Tanaka pitching a gem, and Sale's only run is unearned- caused by a cross up passed ball.

Great game at Fenway. Tanaka pitching a gem, and Sale's only run is unearned- caused by a cross up passed ball.

 

Boston forgets that even with Sale pitching they have to score runs to win

Pretty funny he's getting no run support from the Bo Sox so far this season.

Tanaka has an outside shot at a Maddux tonight.

Pretty funny he's getting no run support from the Bo Sox so far this season.

 

Is anyone on the Red Sox getting run support?

Sale's throwing harder this year than last. Never did understand the approach last year

 

The Sox really worked hard to keep him healthy and keep him off of the surgeon's table. I really wonder if Boston will be able to do the same.

Tanaka has an outside shot at a Maddux tonight.

You called it