4 minutes ago, iamshack said:

Not sure Madrigal has an elite eye...perhaps elite hand-eye coordination, but from what he has said in interviews, he prefers to swing at anything close rather than leave the decision up to the umpires. 

Is there a way to combine Moncada and Madrigal into the ultimate player?

I enjoy the optimism around Madrigal, but the more I think about his profile, and see his early returns, the more “blah” I feel about him. 

Not that we don’t need that type of player in our org - we do - but I just don’t know if he will be the type of high level producer that some might expect. 

I just can't imagine the Sox took Madrigal without thinking he's going to be their 2B someday. They could have taken a half dozen other players and just as easily said that that player was the best available. The proof will come out over the next couple years, but I just can't see Madrigal as the guy they trade.

Just now, flavum said:

I just can't imagine the Sox took Madrigal without thinking he's going to be their 2B someday. They could have taken a half dozen other players and just as easily said that that player was the best available. The proof will come out over the next couple years, but I just can't see Madrigal as the guy they trade.

The Red Sox went out and spent $60 million plus on Moncada with Dustin Pedroia at 2B.

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

The Red Sox went out and spent $60 million plus on Moncada with Dustin Pedroia at 2B.

And they also brought him to the big leagues as a 3B.

12 minutes ago, flavum said:

And they also brought him to the big leagues as a 3B.

So they went out and spent on the best available player despite having depth.  They let them play their natural position until forced to do otherwise and then they spun him into one of the greatest pitchers on the planet.

We should pray that the Madrigal saga ends half this well.

1 hour ago, Flash said:

Lol...Moncada, even when he was #1 on MilB prospect lists was a 65 FV...same as Giolito (who was ranked 3rd). It is unlikely either would still be rated as high based on their MLB performances. Your example of Urias for Moncada is not as obvious as you portray. Swap Tatis for Urias and SD would definitely decline, as would Toronto if you swapped Bichette for Vlad Jr. You, along with many others on this board have bought in on the hype which was largely based upon his tools as he progressed through the minor leagues. He has never been more than a tooled up prospect. If you want to see what its supposed to look like, check out Acuna, Soto and Torres to name a few 65-70 FV prospects whose performances befit their tools.

I have no idea what you’re even talking about at this point as you continue to move the goalposts from post to post.

But this idea that Moncada didn’t put up great statistics in the minors is nothing more than a false narrative you’ve constructed to aid in your pessimism towards him.  Let’s actually look at some numbers to put an end to this bullshit.  

Yoan put up wRC+ of 156 & 152 at A+ & AA respectively as a 21 year old.  Those ranked were amongst the leaders in both leagues and were very comparable to the numbers fellow uber prospect Andrew Benintendi put up despite Yoan being a year younger.  He then put up a wRC+ of 130 in AAA as a 22 year old & actually had much better numbers before he got banged up.  

Point is, there is a reason almost every single publication had him as a top 1 or 2 overall prospect: he combined elite tools with high end production.  The hype was and still is warranted no matter how hard you try to spit it.

15 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

I have no idea what you’re even talking about at this point as you continue to move the goalposts from post to post.

But this idea that Moncada didn’t put up great statistics in the minors is nothing more than a false narrative you’ve constructed to aid in your pessimism towards him.  Let’s actually look at some numbers to put an end to this bullshit.  

Yoan put up wRC+ of 156 & 152 at A+ & AA respectively as a 21 year old.  Those ranked were amongst the leaders in both leagues and were very comparable to the numbers fellow uber prospect Andrew Benintendi put up despite Yoan being a year younger.  He then put up a wRC+ of 130 in AAA as a 22 year old & actually had much better numbers before he got banged up.  

Point is, there is a reason almost every single publication had him as a top 1 or 2 overall prospect: he combined elite tools with high end production.  The hype was and still is warranted no matter how hard you try to spit it.

I just don’t understand what the folks are watching that are already calling the guy a bust. 

I cannot pretend as though his stubborn approach at times doesn’t frustrate me. 

However, when he does square up a pitch he likes, do you not see how the ball comes off his bat? Do you not see how f’ing fast he is? Even when he is down 0-2, do you see how he pisses on pitches out of the zone? Did you see that in July, his RH PAs have taken a large step forward?

I don’t know how else to say it, as so many other folks have said it, but Yoan already HAS the most difficult to acquire tools/skills he needs to be a superstar player. The ones he has to improve upon are those that come far more easy.  He learn that he simply cannot be so selective. He will understand how much damage he can do on pitches in the zone, even if they are not precisely to his liking. This will come with more PAs, and with continued study. 

When it does...watch out

 

2 minutes ago, iamshack said:

I just don’t understand what the folks are watching that are already calling the guy a bust. 

I cannot pretend as though his stubborn approach at times doesn’t frustrate me. 

However, when he does square up a pitch he likes, do you not see how the ball comes off his bat? Do you not see how f’ing fast he is? Even when he is down 0-2, do you see how he pisses on pitches out of the zone? Did you see that in July, his RH PAs have taken a large step forward?

I don’t know how else to say it, as so many other folks have said it, but Yoan already HAS the most difficult to acquire tools/skills he needs to be a superstar player. The ones he has to improve upon are those that come far more easy.  He learn that he simply cannot be so selective. He will understand how much damage he can do on pitches in the zone, even if they are not precisely to his liking. This will come with more PAs, and with continued study. 

When it does...watch out

 

Great post & 100% agree.  It’s going to take some time and it won’t always be pretty along the way, but IMO the kid is going to be a damn good player in this league at some point.  People just need to be patient with him, which seems to be a challenge with some posters here.

6 minutes ago, iamshack said:

I just don’t understand what the folks are watching that are already calling the guy a bust. 

I cannot pretend as though his stubborn approach at times doesn’t frustrate me. 

However, when he does square up a pitch he likes, do you not see how the ball comes off his bat? Do you not see how f’ing fast he is? Even when he is down 0-2, do you see how he pisses on pitches out of the zone? Did you see that in July, his RH PAs have taken a large step forward?

I don’t know how else to say it, as so many other folks have said it, but Yoan already HAS the most difficult to acquire tools/skills he needs to be a superstar player. The ones he has to improve upon are those that come far more easy.  He learn that he simply cannot be so selective. He will understand how much damage he can do on pitches in the zone, even if they are not precisely to his liking. This will come with more PAs, and with continued study. 

When it does...watch out

 

21 minutes ago, iamshack said:

I just don’t understand what the folks are watching that are already calling the guy a bust. 

I cannot pretend as though his stubborn approach at times doesn’t frustrate me. 

However, when he does square up a pitch he likes, do you not see how the ball comes off his bat? Do you not see how f’ing fast he is? Even when he is down 0-2, do you see how he pisses on pitches out of the zone? Did you see that in July, his RH PAs have taken a large step forward?

I don’t know how else to say it, as so many other folks have said it, but Yoan already HAS the most difficult to acquire tools/skills he needs to be a superstar player. The ones he has to improve upon are those that come far more easy.  He learn that he simply cannot be so selective. He will understand how much damage he can do on pitches in the zone, even if they are not precisely to his liking. This will come with more PAs, and with continued study. 

When it does...watch out

 

This post should get every like in this thread.

2 hours ago, SoxAce said:

This post should get every like in this thread.

Yes it should. Great post...

 

 

> Ted Williams (considered by many as the greatest hitter ever) always said you can't judge a hitter until he has has 1,500 at bats in the MLB. So I'm hoping Moncada is a much better hitter the next few years than what he has been this year.

So @flippedoutpunk and @Goober this thread seems pretty confusing to you guys?

6 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So @flippedoutpunk and @Goober this thread seems pretty confusing to you guys?

 

14 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

So @flippedoutpunk and @Goober this thread seems pretty confusing to you guys?

 

7 hours ago, flavum said:

And they also brought him to the big leagues as a 3B.

Just a little history. Moncada in his first season in Cuba minors was a 3B but was eventually moved to 2nd. When signed by Red Sox, he was projected to play 2nd , 3B or corner outfield.  Ironically, when he played A ball , the Red Sox top 3 prospects were he(#1) Devers(#2 )and Benintendi (#3).  Then in AA when the Red Sox saw his progress , they moved him to 3B ( despite Devers being a year behind him) because Sandoval had  flopped.  Obviously he struggled at 3B. When he came to the White Sox they immediately moved him back to 2B.  

I don't see the White Sox moving him to 3B again since twice in his young career he was moved away from 3B.  Maybe corner outfield if Madrigal forces the issue. 

Moncada has also said that one of the reasons he was somewhat glad to be traded away from Boston was that it meant he could go back to 2B.

 

22 hours ago, Wanne said:

Yes it should. Great post...

I second this point. If Avi would have stayed healthy this year he probably would have exploded. He is exhibit A for patience with Moncada. 

Edited August 5, 20187 yr by Jack Parkman

21 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

 

A full 25% of his Ks are bad calls.  Turn even 25% of those into hits and his average is up to basically .250. His OPS is probably somewhere around .800 or close to it, and people are talking about Yoan as an all-star instead of a bust.

4 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

A full 25% of his Ks are bad calls.  Turn even 25% of those into hits and his average is up to basically .250. His OPS is probably somewhere around .800 or close to it, and people are talking about Yoan as an all-star instead of a bust.

Though to be fair, anyone unironically calling a player who has been pretty average overall a bust at age 23 probably shouldn't be taken seriously anyway. 

Just now, Jose Abreu said:

Though to be fair, anyone unironically calling a player who has been pretty average overall a bust at age 23 probably shouldn't be taken seriously anyway. 

Totally agree,  but that stat shows a big hole in the biggest worry about Yoan. The umpiring has cost him probably 75 to 100 OPS points this year.  That is insane. 

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Totally agree,  but that stat shows a big hole in the biggest worry about Yoan. The umpiring has cost him probably 75 to 100 OPS points this year.  That is insane. 

And the detractors say we're making excuses for him, but whatever. If Politics has taught us anything, it is that people are irrational, facts don't matter and people will believe what they want to believe. To each their own. 

Edited August 5, 20187 yr by Jack Parkman

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

A full 25% of his Ks are bad calls.  Turn even 25% of those into hits and his average is up to basically .250. His OPS is probably somewhere around .800 or close to it, and people are talking about Yoan as an all-star instead of a bust.

That's not actually the statistic.  You're ignoring half of it's definition.

 

Edited August 5, 20187 yr by Juschill

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

And the detractors say we're making excuses for him, but whatever. If Politics has taught us anything, it is that people are irrational, facts don't matter and people will believe what they want to believe. To each their own. 

It's not just that he is striking out. His approach at the plate isn't very good if he has lost so many points because of umpires. He may need to start swinging at close calls until this is figured out. 

 

1 hour ago, Jack Parkman said:

 

 

Edited August 5, 20187 yr by SonofaRoache