Just now, chitownsportsfan said:

well correct me if I'm wrong but Vaughn can't be traded until June.  Trading Madrigal opens a huge hole at 2B.  Who is a FA at 2B?  There are a lot of solid to great SP on the market.

They changed that rule. He can be traded after the WS. 

Mookie Betts is the type of player Sox fans should know will never play for this team, yet here we are ?

I'm not sure why the Red Sox would be interested in Madrigal but if they can package him with a couple other players it's a no bariner.

1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

I'm not sure why the Red Sox would be interested in Madrigal but if they can package him with a couple other players it's a no bariner.

Because he’s the closest thing to Dustin Pedroia out there.

Devers, Bogaerts, Madrigal, Betts and Benintendi...that’s a solid enough core if they jettison JDM’s salary and inject it back into the pitching staff.

They can always plug someone like Chavis, Smoak, Adams, etc., into the DH spot.

Edited October 1, 20196 yr by caulfield12

We're gonna disagree on that one.  I would think if the Red Sox trade Betts they'd be looking for players with higher ceilings.  But yeah if they'd take him I'm all in.

11 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

No I would not trade for him. If the Red Sox can't get an extension inked with him then we can't either, and that's not an indictment of our front office. Whatever dollar amount we're willing to pay...Betts's side will know that if we're willing to pay it, there will likely be other teams willing to match it, and he wants to let the market play out. That is a respectable decision. If the White Sox put an offer on the table next March, and then they faced the prospect of losing him for nothing, they might up their bid under that pressure.

From the White Sox's side, we cannot afford to lose a top 5 draft pick in a trade for a guy with 1 year of control who intends to hit the free agent market. 

It just does not work.

 

11 hours ago, mqr said:

Mookie is great and I would love to have him here, but the price is probably way to high for 1 year of great player in a window that still might not quite be open. If you want him pony up the dough next offseason. 

I agree with these 2 in the most polite way I can think of saying hell no. Never ever trade for 1 year of a great player headed to free agency. It's lunacy especially with so many young players who still need to prove themselves ( Kopech , Cease, Collins, Robert, Madrigal. Lopez and Rodon and Dunning coming back in the 2nd half also having to prove themselves. I know many want to be in the playoffs next year but it's not quite there yet. Solidify the roster, get rid of much of the dead weight and give the team some more OBP, lefthanders and versatility and then when /if if he hit's free agency tackle it then. If he get's extended by Boston so be it. It will not crush the rebuild but trading for him and hoping for an extension just might crush it. The elephant you talked about is a Mastodon like those LOTR's creatures and you aren't doing them any favors putting them in a position for even bigger mistakes.

11 hours ago, Jack Parkman said:

Just wait a season. Dickerson is still a huge upgrade in RF. It doesn't take much to upgrade a -3.0 WAR. 

or Gardner might be even better.

Only if it grants some sort of extension window. Don't do the 2018 idea of trading for him to "pitch him for a year" and then sign him as a FA. 

So in other words...never going to happen.

Betts has already said he is going to free agency. So are we willing to give up guys like Giolito, Kopech, Robert, Vaughn...for a guy that very likely is gone after 1 season? To me this is an easy answer - no.

9 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Well they'd obviously want a cornerstone back.   If I'm RH to get them to pickup the phone you're going to have to throw around names.  Giolito would get them talking I'd imagine.  Giolito and then they get the pick 2 of the next 5 guys: Rutherford, Micker, Walker, Basabe Yolbert/etc.  Preferably you'd deal from strength all the time but the Sox aren't in a position to do that really position player wise.  So you get them to buy super high on Gio and then get off pretty easy.

I have no idea if that's even close to his value but Gio + a couple B- guys is a solid opening offer I'd guess.

You people knock Hahn then come up with trade ideas like this.  Thank God we have RH making the deals.

47 minutes ago, poppysox said:

You people knock Hahn then come up with trade ideas like this.  Thank God we have RH making the deals.

No kidding. That proposal is brutal from the White Sox perspective. Imagine trading Giolito+ for one year of Machado a couple years back. Man, that would have been terrible.

11 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

They need a 2B in the Pedroia mode, and Madrigal is the perfect match there.

It would be something like Madrigal, Lopez and Walker.

Thats too much capital to run the risk of losing him at the end of the year when they’re probably not competing without a DH, two more solid starting pitchers and some major additions in the pen (thanks for nothing, Herrera.)

Chavis hit 18 HR in 350 AB replacing Pedroia. He also plays 3B and IB. They will not want Madrigal. Vaughn would be a better idea. 

No one here has any idea whether BOS would want Madrigal.  He's probably one of the more polarizing prospects out there.  Just because he's a small guy doesn't make him the next Dustin Pedroia.  If Madrigal develops 15-20 HR power, we'd all be thrilled.

Realistically, I'd think Vaughn would have to be the centerpiece of a Betts trade, and no thanks.  Trading for Betts really only makes sense if you're going all out for a world series in 2020.  Otherwise, just bid on him when he hits the open market next year.  

18 hours ago, bmags said:

Built largely may have been not the right way to think of it, but last year the twins spent roughly 38 million on Gonzalez, Cron, Cruz, Perez, Parker and Schoop. That got them 9.1 fWAR combined.

The white sox spent 38 million on Alonso, Colome, Herrera, Nova, McCann, Jay, Banuelos, Osich, and Santana (i'm actually not sure how to count santanas)

They got 3.1 fWAR combined

For similar price, they received 3x as much production out of their offseason additions.

So as we lower our sights to add to this team through just money, I really wonder how much people can expect this management team to nab through injury gambles and depth plays.

Everyone knows ALonso and Jay were Manny acquisitions . It's also probably why the Sox supposedly had interest in Nelson Cruz, If anyone remembers Manny wrote an article in the Players Tribune on why he was playing for the DR in the WBC and it emphasized family. So it's perhaps the reason why the Sox did what they did regarding Machado.

It might also be the reason for Colome and Nova and Welington Castillo from earlier , all team mates on that 2017 team.

I'm as leery of the front office as you and there are some good value picks out there along with the headliner. Our best hope is they get 2 headliners 1 from the starting pitching group and 1 from positional players then mix and match to maximize power, OBP, left handedness , positional versatiilty, defense and the bullpen. If they keep these things in mind there are plenty of names that could be had on reasonable deals,

I do not expect failure but I also do not expect 100% hits and I also don't expect them to fill all the holes to make a playoff team but enough to put the Sox into a position for a big run in 2021. Betts can be discussed then if available.

The original plan was to trade for Machado the year before he hit free agency and confince him to sign an extension.  They made a legit offer but Baltimore (Angelos) turned it down so it's certainly not out of the relm of possibility that they would try again with Betts.  

Alrighty then.

11 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

 

I agree with these 2 in the most polite way I can think of saying hell no. Never ever trade for 1 year of a great player headed to free agency. It's lunacy especially with so many young players who still need to prove themselves ( Kopech , Cease, Collins, Robert, Madrigal. Lopez and Rodon and Dunning coming back in the 2nd half also having to prove themselves. I know many want to be in the playoffs next year but it's not quite there yet. Solidify the roster, get rid of much of the dead weight and give the team some more OBP, lefthanders and versatility and then when /if if he hit's free agency tackle it then. If he get's extended by Boston so be it. It will not crush the rebuild but trading for him and hoping for an extension just might crush it. The elephant you talked about is a Mastodon like those LOTR's creatures and you aren't doing them any favors putting them in a position for even bigger mistakes.

One other random thought I had...I might have actually thought about doing a move like this one, trading for Betts, had it not been for the number of flops and breakdowns in our minor league system.

If we had a bunch of breakouts - Hansen, Adolfo, and Rutherford all having good 2019s or something like that, where we seemingly had guys to trade and we had some depth - this could be an interesting gamble. Trade an outfielder and a pitcher for Betts, but leave Madrigal and Vaughn in place. Put Betts out there, say that we now have a team we think can win the wild card, at least play some competitive baseball in September even if we don't make the playoffs, and maybe we're in an even better shape to re-up with Betts due to increased revenue.

But since we have so little minor league depth behind our top flight guys/first round picks, we're not in a position where we can afford to give them up. If we give up one of them for Betts, that means we have to replace the guy we gave up with another trade or free agent. We don't have anything to spare in a deal like this because things went so poorly outside our top 5 in the minors.

Teams are valuing their good prospects more than ever, because with the CBT you need good cost-controlled players in order to avoid going over the tax threshold.  Is there a team out there that would be willing to give up a top 50 prospect for 1 year of Betts?  Maybe, but I don't think that's as sure a bet as some national writers seem to think.  I have no problem with the Sox making an offer, but it shouldn't be more than say Zack Collins + Jonathan Stiever.  If that's not enough, then so be it.  

It wouldn't even be close to enough.  He still made FG's "Honorable Mention" at midseason (top 60 trade value in MLB).

A C+ guy and a B- like Collins and Stiever and Boston would just hang up the phone laughing and never pick up a Hahn call again.

1 hour ago, Perfect Vision said:

Teams are valuing their good prospects more than ever, because with the CBT you need good cost-controlled players in order to avoid going over the tax threshold.  Is there a team out there that would be willing to give up a top 50 prospect for 1 year of Betts?  Maybe, but I don't think that's as sure a bet as some national writers seem to think.  I have no problem with the Sox making an offer, but it shouldn't be more than say Zack Collins + Jonathan Stiever.  If that's not enough, then so be it.  

Remember what happened with Machado. The Orioles took calls on him in the offseason and no one made a good enough offer, so they held him and eventually Seager went down with an injury and suddenly the Dodgers needed him. They didn't get a top 50 prospect, but they got a top 100 prospect from a good organization plus 3 other guys, so it was a pretty good deal.

As I said above, another thing that makes this difficult for the White Sox is that they have no one right now in that 75-100 range, so either they give up Vaughn/Madrigal as a headliner or they have no top 100 prospects to offer. And the Red Sox should not move him without at least a top 100 guy as a strong return.

4 hours ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Everyone knows ALonso and Jay were Manny acquisitions . It's also probably why the Sox supposedly had interest in Nelson Cruz, If anyone remembers Manny wrote an article in the Players Tribune on why he was playing for the DR in the WBC and it emphasized family. So it's perhaps the reason why the Sox did what they did regarding Machado.

It might also be the reason for Colome and Nova and Welington Castillo from earlier , all team mates on that 2017 team.

I'm as leery of the front office as you and there are some good value picks out there along with the headliner. Our best hope is they get 2 headliners 1 from the starting pitching group and 1 from positional players then mix and match to maximize power, OBP, left handedness , positional versatiilty, defense and the bullpen. If they keep these things in mind there are plenty of names that could be had on reasonable deals,

I do not expect failure but I also do not expect 100% hits and I also don't expect them to fill all the holes to make a playoff team but enough to put the Sox into a position for a big run in 2021. Betts can be discussed then if available.

If last year was an anomaly in Hahns tenure I wouldn't mention it, but that type of return has been all too common (despite even striking gold with McCann).

On 9/30/2019 at 11:15 AM, BackDoorBreach said:

I posted this in another thread, but I only trade for him if Boston allows us to negotiate an extension with him before pulling the trigger.  I don't think he is going to be crazy expensive trade wise since it's only 1 year but they are definitely going to want a piece that might be better spent elsewhere.

Pass on him altogether. We need pitching more than Betts.

6 minutes ago, zisk said:

Pass on him altogether. We need pitching more than Betts.

Yeah right field is definitely figured out for us long term.

19 minutes ago, zisk said:

Pass on him altogether. We need pitching more than Betts.

Wrong.

If we trade with Boston I don't think you'd have to give up top prospects for him. They want to unload his salary and would probably take a few mid level prospects for him, especially as a rental. If Hahn can make some big signings for pitching and a DH this offseason I wouldn't be opposed to that.