I’m 99 pct sure Madrigal won’t be on Opening Day roster. If he was going to be, he would be getting reps with the first team. Heck, they played Delmonico at 2nd instead of him last night.

23 minutes ago, fathom said:

I’m 99 pct sure Madrigal won’t be on Opening Day roster. If he was going to be, he would be getting reps with the first team. Heck, they played Delmonico at 2nd instead of him last night.

I would agree. He's not starting with the club initially. I am curious to see how they pull 30 players from the 40 man roster though. Might have to DFA a guy or two. 

46 minutes ago, fathom said:

I’m 99 pct sure Madrigal won’t be on Opening Day roster. If he was going to be, he would be getting reps with the first team. Heck, they played Delmonico at 2nd instead of him last night.

With that line of thinking...Delmonico will be the starting 2nd baseman...don't think so.

On 7/16/2020 at 6:16 PM, gusguyman said:

He would have the best case yet (in this exact scenario) though, right? As SoxFan2014 noted, players lose that grievance because the teams have plausible deniability. The player needs to work on some specific skill, and they do that in the minors, then they get called up. With no minors to play in, how is Madrigal supposed to have proved to the team that whatever skill he is supposedly lacking in has been fixed? They also can't use the vague "he needed seasoning/ to see more AAA at-bats/etc." Maybe they could get away with it if the starting 2B or Cuthbert or whoever plays horribly in the first week, but I think Madrigal would have a far stronger case than any minor leaguer so far.

He'd lose the grievance. Like Bryant he has zero chance of winning one. The service time rule is black and white and there's still a taxi squad so it's not like he'd just be sitting at home.

To win, he'd need actual hard evidence the Sox conspired to keep him down solely for service time. Like an email chain from Hahn to Renteria saying that they won't call Madrigal up until a certain date. It's an almost impossible standard for a player to win but that's the way the CBA was written.

If Madrigal doesn’t start with the team, they have no intentions of winning. 

9 minutes ago, Orlando said:

If Madrigal doesn’t start with the team, they have no intentions of winning. 

I despise service time manipulation. That said, is Madrigal really that much better than Leury right now?

13 minutes ago, Orlando said:

If Madrigal doesn’t start with the team, they have no intentions of winning. 

If somebody asked me to predict the team’s record with Madrigal starting all 60 games at 2B, I’d go with 32-28. If somebody then asked me to predict their record with García starting the first 6 games at 2B and Madrigal starting the remaining 54, I’d go with 32-28. 

1 hour ago, Timmy U said:

I despise service time manipulation. That said, is Madrigal really that much better than Leury right now?

Mendick is out playing them both.

12 hours ago, Timmy U said:

I despise service time manipulation. That said, is Madrigal really that much better than Leury right now?

Leury is a very nice bench piece...he is not an everyday 2nd baseman IMO.  For all the service time manipulation talk I don't see any examples where the FO has engaged in this behavior.  

1 minute ago, poppysox said:

Leury is a very nice bench piece...he is not an everyday 2nd baseman IMO.  For all the service time manipulation talk I don't see any examples where the FO has engaged in this behavior.  

They did it with Eloy Jimenez and Luis Robert. They convinced them to sign extensions instead though ultimately. 

6 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Leury is a very nice bench piece...he is not an everyday 2nd baseman IMO.  For all the service time manipulation talk I don't see any examples where the FO has engaged in this behavior.  

If the plan is to keep Madrigal down to start the year, and if Moncada is good for opening day, I’d just let Mendick start at 2B to start the year. Then after a week, you reevaluate. If Mendick is struggling, you bring up Madrigal and nobody can argue about service time manipulation. If Mendick is playing well, then that’s a good problem to have. 

I think Madrigal would scratch out a few more hits than his competitors would. That could be a factor in a 60 game season.

Fulmer might be history after his bad inning Sunday.

Would much rather see guys like Dunning, Lambert, and Heuer make the roster than guys like Fulmer and Herrera

Updated 30 man Guess

Pitchers (16)

1. Giolito

2. Keuchel

3. Cease

4. Rodon

5. Lopez

6. Gonzalez

7. Bummer

8. Colome

9. Cordero

10. Cishek

11. Heuer*

12. Fry

13. Marshall

14. Fulmer**

15. Herrera

16. Detwiler ***

Position Players (14)

1. Grandal

2. Abreu

3. Garcia

4. Anderson

5. Moncada

6. Jimenez

7. Robert

8. Mazara

9. Encarnacion

10. Mendick

11. Engel

12. McCann

13. Collins

14. Cuthbert

* Heuer deserves it on the merits, I thought he might be kept down because of service time but based on CWS view that the team won't likely play that game with relievers ill keep him in.

**I have Fulmer in just because the team might wait to see if they can get something for him via trade before cutting him loose when the roster goes down to 28. 

***Detwiler expected to get moved down the moment Dunning is brought up after service time secured. 

 

Edited July 20, 20205 yr by SoCalChiSox

12 minutes ago, chitown87 said:

Would much rather see guys like Dunning, Lambert, and Heuer make the roster than guys like Fulmer and Herrera

Dunning and Lambert look really good - but do you want to place them in the pen and slow down their starting development for next season?

 

Are they better than Giolito, Keuchel, Gonzalez, Cease, or Lopez?

14 minutes ago, chitown87 said:

Would much rather see guys like Dunning, Lambert, and Heuer make the roster than guys like Fulmer and Herrera

Ah that's who I was forgetting ....Lambert. I should have put him in Detwiler's place. I definitely would prefer him now on second thought.

 

48 minutes ago, knightni said:

Dunning and Lambert look really good - but do you want to place them in the pen and slow down their starting development for next season?

 

Are they better than Giolito, Keuchel, Gonzalez, Cease, or Lopez?

I guess I don't really see the downside. They can get stretched out to go back to starting next spring. I would rather see them getting some innings against MLB batters than doing nothing - it's not like they can go start at AAA this year.

25 minutes ago, chitown87 said:

I guess I don't really see the downside. They can get stretched out to go back to starting next spring. I would rather see them getting some innings against MLB batters than doing nothing - it's not like they can go start at AAA this year.

I don't think that they want to start their "clocks" until they are dominant enough to earn a spot in the rotation.

34 minutes ago, chitown87 said:

I guess I don't really see the downside. They can get stretched out to go back to starting next spring. I would rather see them getting some innings against MLB batters than doing nothing - it's not like they can go start at AAA this year.

I agree. And Dunning will be 26 in December. I wouldn't be that concerned about his service time starting. Get some innings in relief and then stretch out next spring and start the year in the minors.

Madrigal over Cuthbert -

Mercedes by a mile over Collins. We don't need a third catcher in a short season but Yermin's bat could come in big for us.

Fulmer is toast burned over three times. Release him and end the suffering.

Edited July 20, 20205 yr by tray

1 hour ago, SoCalChiSox said:

Updated 30 man Guess

Pitchers (16)

1. Giolito

2. Keuchel

3. Cease

4. Rodon

5. Lopez

6. Gonzalez

7. Bummer

8. Colome

9. Cordero

10. Cishek

11. Heuer*

12. Fry

13. Marshall

14. Fulmer**

15. Herrera

16. Detwiler ***

Position Players (14)

1. Grandal

2. Abreu

3. Garcia

4. Anderson

5. Moncada

6. Jimenez

7. Robert

8. Mazara

9. Encarnacion

10. Mendick

11. Engel

12. McCann

13. Collins

14. Cuthbert

* Heuer deserves it on the merits, I thought he might be kept down because of service time but based on CWS view that the team won't likely play that game with relievers ill keep him in.

**I have Fulmer in just because the team might wait to see if they can get something for him via trade before cutting him loose when the roster goes down to 28. 

***Detwiler expected to get moved down the moment Dunning is brought up after service time secured. 

 

You need to create two 40 man spots to add Detwiler, Heuer and Cuthbert FWIW. 

3 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

You need to create two 40 man spots to add Detwiler, Heuer and Cuthbert FWIW. 

Yeah, I can see them opening up one spot max and don’t see Detwiler getting one of them.

 

On 7/17/2020 at 7:34 PM, CeaseAndExist said:

He'd lose the grievance. Like Bryant he has zero chance of winning one. The service time rule is black and white and there's still a taxi squad so it's not like he'd just be sitting at home.

To win, he'd need actual hard evidence the Sox conspired to keep him down solely for service time. Like an email chain from Hahn to Renteria saying that they won't call Madrigal up until a certain date. It's an almost impossible standard for a player to win but that's the way the CBA was written.

I still think we need to be careful. Everyone used to reference what the Cubs did with Bryant as a reason to play the service game. That is true, but for years I said Bryant was pissed and would hold it against them. They will have to trade their best talent this winter because of that manipulation. I am okay doing it, I just want the Sox to make sure they can smooth things over to avoid a disgruntled star. I think they did a great job with Eloy because you could tell he was hurt by not being called up.