2021 NFL Season Thread

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

See this just isn’t ok. With the White Sox we have a case of their owner wanting to hire his old white guy at any cost and the org conducting a clear sham interview. It was blatant at the time and frankly more obvious than the Giants would have been without the texts. 

You either can act in a just way every time or not, and when an owner decides to advantage the old white guy, he should be called out for it. He does get to build up nonracist credits that he can cash in when the time is right to do a racism. The sham interview should have him being lumped in with the Giants, Texans, Dolphins, etc, not praised because he didn’t do it every time.

Here's the thing.  I don't think what Tony LaRussa looks like made any difference to the hire.  Looking back on the Sox history, they bring in their guys to do jobs, simply because they were their guys.  As much as a I hate Tony LaRussa and the joke of a process that brought him in here, I have very little reason to think it was race related and that Jerry only hired him because he was white.  He hired him because he was Tony LaRussa and he has wanted him back since 1986.

[Texsox]

20 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

See this just isn’t ok. With the White Sox we have a case of their owner wanting to hire his old white guy at any cost and the org conducting a clear sham interview. It was blatant at the time and frankly more obvious than the Giants would have been without the texts. 

You either can act in a just way every time or not, and when an owner decides to advantage the old white guy, he should be called out for it. He does get to build up nonracist credits that he can cash in when the time is right to do a racism. The sham interview should have him being lumped in with the Giants, Texans, Dolphins, etc, not praised because he didn’t do it every time.

OK, I'm with you. Now how would you write a rule so that JR was not allowed to hire a HoF manager, and a former team employee,  to lead his team? 

I'll take a run at it. I like @southsider2k5 idea of a monetary reward.I'm going to go a little off that. It should have cost JR some money and I would have a stepped system. Hire a white guy and it costs you some. It would cost more the more other chances the guy had to manage (the retread penalty) and finally the biggest penalty of all for bringing a white guy who managed multiple teams out of retirement to manage.

 

[bmags]

6 minutes ago, Chisoxfn said:

I am very good with this. Cousins quietly had the best season of his career (or at least close to it) and the only reason Vikings stunk was because their defense was a sieve. 

I mainly just like that there is alignment here. Among many things, I assume our offense looked like a disheveled mess because Nagy's staff couldn't understand what he was trying to do and were from different backgrounds.

The OL coach, WR coach, QB coach are now all from a Shanahan/Kubiak background. They should all know responsibilities for the wide/outside zone run scheme and we'll see what passing-wise Getsy wants to include. Now, hopefully they are good at teaching this.

[Chisoxfn]

3 minutes ago, bmags said:

I mainly just like that there is alignment here. Among many things, I assume our offense looked like a disheveled mess because Nagy's staff couldn't understand what he was trying to do and were from different backgrounds.

The OL coach, WR coach, QB coach are now all from a Shanahan/Kubiak background. They should all know responsibilities for the wide/outside zone run scheme and we'll see what passing-wise Getsy wants to include. Now, hopefully they are good at teaching this.

You are very much on to something - that is why I Like the approach we took with Getsy bringing in people he supported and trusted who (hopefully) fit his system. I think Nagy outthought himself thinking all the various disciplines would help but reality it just created too much conflict (at least early on).  

[southsider2k5]

15 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Here's the thing.  I don't think what Tony LaRussa looks like made any difference to the hire.  Looking back on the Sox history, they bring in their guys to do jobs, simply because they were their guys.  As much as a I hate Tony LaRussa and the joke of a process that brought him in here, I have very little reason to think it was race related and that Jerry only hired him because he was white.  He hired him because he was Tony LaRussa and he has wanted him back since 1986.

To further this. look at this list from a couple of days ago.  All kinds of ethnic backgrounds here.  What to do almost all of them have in common?  They played for the White Sox at some point.

https://theathletic.com/3108064/2022/02/02/on-the-other-side-of-the-game-nicky-delmonico-rejoins-white-sox-as-a-minor-league-hitting-coach/

[Balta1701]

34 minutes ago, Texsox said:

OK, I'm with you. Now how would you write a rule so that JR was not allowed to hire a HoF manager, and a former team employee,  to lead his team? 

I'll take a run at it. I like @southsider2k5 idea of a monetary reward.I'm going to go a little off that. It should have cost JR some money and I would have a stepped system. Hire a white guy and it costs you some. It would cost more the more other chances the guy had to manage (the retread penalty) and finally the biggest penalty of all for bringing a white guy who managed multiple teams out of retirement to manage.

 

I don’t want a rule where he’s not allowed to take that into account. If he has procedures that have worked in the past to give an effective and diverse workforce, he does not get to short circuit those procedures, and he deserves to be called out when he does. 

Being anti racist sometimes doesn’t give you credits you can cash in. If I’m recruiting students for something, and over a 2 year period 75% of my students come from underrepresented groups (true by the way), I don’t get to say “I did my part now I can recruit a bunch of white students.” Rather, I say “this procedure worked so I will keep doing it, so what else can I work on this year in another subject to continue improving”.  If I decided to recruit a team that was all white one year, even if I pointed to their exemplary performance and my previous history to justify it, and changed my procedures to make sure it happened, I’m still the asshole. 

If there’s a place for a rule, it’s a monstrous fine for passing over his own procedures that worked for creating diversity in the past. Have the team create standard procedures and don’t deviate from them. If they do, that’s where the penalty comes in.

[southsider2k5]

7 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I don’t want a rule where he’s not allowed to take that into account. If he has procedures that have worked in the past to give an effective and diverse workforce, he does not get to short circuit those procedures, and he deserves to be called out when he does. 

Being anti racist sometimes doesn’t give you credits you can cash in. If I’m recruiting students for something, and over a 2 year period 75% of my students come from underrepresented groups (true by the way), I don’t get to say “I did my part now I can recruit a bunch of white students.” Rather, I say “this procedure worked so I will keep doing it, so what else can I work on this year in another subject to continue improving”.  If I decided to recruit a team that was all white one year, even if I pointed to their exemplary performance and my previous history to justify it, and changed my procedures to make sure it happened, I’m still the asshole. 

If there’s a place for a rule, it’s a monstrous fine for passing over his own procedures that worked for creating diversity in the past. Have the team create standard procedures and don’t deviate from them. If they do, that’s where the penalty comes in.

Get me a white dude is not the same as get me the guy who used to work for me.  I am still curious of the evidence that Tony was hired because he was white.

[Balta1701]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

Get me a white dude is not the same as get me the guy who used to work for me.  I am still curious of the evidence that Tony was hired because he was white.

Get me the guy who used to work for me who happens to be white and you’re not allowed to realistically consider any black guys is not an ok sentiment. It’s literally what the Rooney and Selig rules are written to say teams should not do, and a team short-circuiting that rule is now getting sued.

Get me the guy from Buffalo he’s the most qualified and conduct a sham interview with a black guy. Is that an ok sentiment for you? I would say it isn’t, and the fact that it keeps happening in the NFL is a symptom of the embedded racism. If the Giants’ last coach was black would that make it ok for them to target only a white guy this time?

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

Get me the guy who used to work for me who happens to be white and you’re not allowed to realistically consider any black guys is not an ok sentiment. It’s literally what the Rooney and Selig rules are written to say teams should not do, and a team short-circuiting that rule is now getting sued.

Get me the guy from Buffalo he’s the most qualified and conduct a sham interview with a black guy. Is that an ok sentiment for you? I would say it isn’t, and the fact that it keeps happening in the NFL is a symptom of the embedded racism. If the Giants’ last coach was black would that make it ok for them to target only a white guy this time?

You are the saying the White Sox hired him because he was white, not me.

[Texsox]

As @southsider2k5pointed out the Sox "system" has resulted in Kenny Williams and Tony Larussa. Both hires are consistent with Sox and JR history. I'm trying to think of a way to eliminate the sham interview and increase minority hiring at the same time. Stopping the "retread" hiring I think can be a step in the right direction. To me TL was the ultimate retread hiring.

At the same time if you own a team and decide that you love your coach but if Belichick was available you would fire your guy and hire Belichick, I don't think the sham interview helps anyone. But admittedly there may only be three or four guys  alive in that category and it is not worth stepping on that slippery slope. Thank you @Kyyle23 who pointed that out to me earlier. 

[southsider2k5]

Just now, Texsox said:

As @southsider2k5pointed out the Sox "system" has resulted in Kenny Williams and Tony Larussa. Both hires are consistent with Sox and JR history. I'm trying to think of a way to eliminate the sham interview and increase minority hiring at the same time. Stopping the "retread" hiring I think can be a step in the right direction. To me TL was the ultimate retread hiring.

At the same time if you own a team and decide that you love your coach but if Belichick was available you would fire your guy and hire Belichick, I don't think the sham interview helps anyone. But admittedly there may only be three or four guys  alive in that category and it is not worth stepping on that slippery slope. Thank you @Kyyle23 who pointed that out to me earlier. 

And I have no doubt that if Tony LaRussa had all of the baggage and history of Tony LaRussa and the skin pigment of Kenny Williams, Jerry will would have thrown process out the window to rehire him.  Even the Sox sham interview was a guy who had a history here.

[southsider2k5]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

And I have no doubt that if Tony LaRussa had all of the baggage and history of Tony LaRussa and the skin pigment of Kenny Williams, Jerry will would have thrown process out the window to rehire him.  Even the Sox sham interview was a guy who had a history here.

And to further add to this, I have zero doubt that five years from now, if Jerry still is a part of this organization, that we will throw out procedure to hire Jose Abreu to some management position in this organization just because he was a beloved and long term member of this organization.

[Texsox]

1 minute ago, southsider2k5 said:

And I have no doubt that if Tony LaRussa had all of the baggage and history of Tony LaRussa and the skin pigment of Kenny Williams, Jerry will would have thrown process out the window to rehire him.  Even the Sox sham interview was a guy who had a history here.

x2

 

[Texsox]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

And to further add to this, I have zero doubt that five years from now, if Jerry still is a part of this organization, that we will throw out procedure to hire Jose Abreu to some management position in this organization just because he was a beloved and long term member of this organization.

Tim Anderson is managing this team one day if JR is still around. 

[Balta1701]

3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

And I have no doubt that if Tony LaRussa had all of the baggage and history of Tony LaRussa and the skin pigment of Kenny Williams, Jerry will would have thrown process out the window to rehire him.  Even the Sox sham interview was a guy who had a history here.

So how many black coaches could have gotten hired twice in the 1980s and managed to keep their jobs despite that baggage? 

[southsider2k5]

1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

So how many black coaches could have gotten hired twice in the 1980s and managed to keep their jobs despite that baggage? 

Did the work for the White Sox?  I mean this is the organization that keeps finding places for Ozzie Guillen, for example.

[Balta1701]

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

Did the work for the White Sox?  I mean this is the organization that keeps finding places for Ozzie Guillen, for example.

So was there any racism in hiring in the early 1980s?

[Kyyle23]

Larussa represents the gray area that we all know exists.  Yes he is a hall of fame manager with many accolades.  No, there was not a valid open hiring process that we all know should exist.  The white Sox past hiring practices show that they have been progressive in hiring minority candidates and do not shy from it, but they did not give one chance here and that really sucks.  Should there be a rule similar to the Rooney rule in the mlb?  Maybe, it seems that in the majors that they have gotten to the point where minority candidates aren't a surprise or sham interview anymore

[Texsox]

9 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

So how many black coaches could have gotten hired twice in the 1980s and managed to keep their jobs despite that baggage? 

Dusty Baker seemed to have weathered his comment about black and Latino  players being better in the heat and sun and white players being slow. Plus has he ever won a postseason series? 

But no doubt being white is a huge and unfair advantage in America. 

[bmags]

Baseball manager as a job cannot be compared to football coach.

[CentralChamps21]

1 hour ago, Texsox said:

At the same time if you own a team and decide that you love your coach but if Belichick was available you would fire your guy and hire Belichick, I don't think the sham interview helps anyone. But admittedly there may only be three or four guys  alive in that category and it is not worth stepping on that slippery slope. Thank you @Kyyle23 who pointed that out to me earlier. 

Even if in one specific instance you know who you already want to hire, I think the "Rooney Rule" interview still helps because the minority candidates accumulate the experience of the interview process which might help them land the next job.

I do think it's weird though, that because the Bears have a minority GM they weren't racist for not hiring him but the teams with white GMs who didn't hire him are.

[bmags]

56 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Larussa represents the gray area that we all know exists.  Yes he is a hall of fame manager with many accolades.  No, there was not a valid open hiring process that we all know should exist.  The white Sox past hiring practices show that they have been progressive in hiring minority candidates and do not shy from it, but they did not give one chance here and that really sucks.  Should there be a rule similar to the Rooney rule in the mlb?  Maybe, it seems that in the majors that they have gotten to the point where minority candidates aren't a surprise or sham interview anymore

I think the NFL recent rule of rewarding teams for having their minority talent hired would be good practice in MLB. I believe it would encourage teams like the Dodgers, Yankees, Red Sox, etc who can afford large front office staffs to make sure they are casting nets because a few extra draft picks would be quite nice. And Friedman ain't going away, so this is a good opportunity to diversify the f.o. ranks.

[The Beast]

3 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

So this creates an interesting question…would people do that contract for Harbaugh?

I am almost certain i wouldn’t, and It’s the years more than the money. Too many reasons why things might not work even with a good coach.

I wouldn’t do it. If I remember correctly, NFL HC deals are guaranteed (unless there is cause like Urban Meyer, which I don’t fully know how that works), so they would have to pay that out if they fire Harbaugh.

We will never know if Eberflus or Harbaugh would have been the better hire in terms of results because Harbaugh isn’t the Bears HC. But I’m satisfied with the moves they have taken, primarily because Pace got fired when Nagy was shown the door and their front office and coaching moves make modern football sense.

2 hours ago, Texsox said:

As I said earlier I don't have a better solution all figured out but I will toss a start of an idea and see if smarter people than I can work with it. What if in addition to the Rooney Rule they put in place a rule to increase the number of POC coaches in the league? Let's build the NFL coaching staff better. If I was a POC I'm not certain I would want a career that leads nowhere. So we need to keep the pressure on the GM and HC positions but also fill the ranks with coaches. 

As a kid who grew up in the 60s and 70s I'm just crushed that we would be having this conversation forty years after I left high school. The future looked so much better back then. My generation failed to make this better other than requiring sham interviews. 

I have always thought the way teams operated hiring within the Rooney Rule was somewhat unfair. They skirted the rules, bringing in a minority candidate just to satisfy the Rooney Rule requirement. There have been many minority hires, but there have been lots of snubs, like Eric Bienemy. Regardless of his legal issues since the early 2000s, he’s a good coordinator under Andy Reid. A team would be lucky to have him as their head coach. Lovie Smith was probably the best Bears head coach of my lifetime and he was a defensive coordinator from St. Louis.

As for fixing the rule, incentivizing teams with a mid to late round pick to hire a certain percentage of minority and female coaches would be a good addition. High picks should continue to be awarded to teams who hire minorities as HCs and executive front office types. For head coaching interviews, try making it so a minimum amount of candidates of color have to be interviewed. If those candidates do not get the job, make it so all candidates who did not get the job get written and specific feedback for why they did not get the job. Consider a revenue stream from the league for minority owners. Significantly fine teams who don’t follow the new reformed protocols. Incentivize teams with either more salary cap room or more league revenue for hiring minorities for HC or executive front office employees. 

[Middle Buffalo]

4 hours ago, Texsox said:

Tim Anderson is managing this team one day if JR is still around. 

Catcher/Manager

[Balta1701]