The MLB lockout is lifted!

[Harry Chappas]

I don't know the dollars and cents but the minor league reductions may be tied to the poor working conditions.  If the pay is increased by 20% the headcount needs to be reduced by 20%.

I'm not sure about the guys living in their cars and eating mayonnaise sandwiches but this feels like an attempt to cut back on those jobs and whittling down the filler guys more and more.

You'd have to look into the support minor league teams receive from their MLB affiliation to really see what the cost is to the owners. 

[chitownsportsfan]

14 minutes ago, Harry Chappas said:

I don't know the dollars and cents but the minor league reductions may be tied to the poor working conditions.  If the pay is increased by 20% the headcount needs to be reduced by 20%.

I'm not sure about the guys living in their cars and eating mayonnaise sandwiches but this feels like an attempt to cut back on those jobs and whittling down the filler guys more and more.

You'd have to look into the support minor league teams receive from their MLB affiliation to really see what the cost is to the owners. 

They aren't in the union so the owners cynically expect the union to concede on shit like this in order to get a few more pennies into the union.

Of course the owners are being short sighted and blinded by greed, but no matter they just want to see more black on the books in the next few years. Doesn't matter if the quality of play goes down or whatever they figure (perhaps rightly) that the slack will be picked up by someone else, maybe private academies, maybe expanding Juco budgets, maybe for profit academies expanding in LA and Pacific Rim.

But fuck them. Fuck the owners. This business will not end well for anybody -- including them. It's going to get out of control and a season will likely be lost one way or another -- a partial season isn't a real season and we all know that. 

[Harold's Leg Lift]

The more guys playing baseball is good.  What the random fan calls a "minor league washout" is actually the life blood of the game.  When those guys are done playing they go back to their hometowns and become HS coaches, travel ball coaches, JC or college coaches and they pass the professional instruction they received to the next generation of players.  People in the game understand how vital these guys are but unfortunately this new age of owner is more than willing to sacrifice the future well being of the game for short term financial gains.  These short sighted decisions will do long term damage but they couldn't care less.  It's all about cutting costs.  

[Quin]

15 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

The more guys playing baseball is good.  What the random fan calls a "minor league washout" is actually the life blood of the game.  When those guys are done playing they go back to their hometowns and become HS coaches, travel ball coaches, JC or college coaches and they pass the professional instruction they received to the next generation of players.  People in the game understand how vital these guys are but unfortunately this new age of owner is more than willing to sacrifice the future well being of the game for short term financial gains.  These short sighted decisions will do long term damage but they couldn't care less.  It's all about cutting costs.  

I'm sorry Harold, but it's called "Saving America's Pastime."

[ChiSox59]

57 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

The more guys playing baseball is good.  What the random fan calls a "minor league washout" is actually the life blood of the game.  When those guys are done playing they go back to their hometowns and become HS coaches, travel ball coaches, JC or college coaches and they pass the professional instruction they received to the next generation of players.  People in the game understand how vital these guys are but unfortunately this new age of owner is more than willing to sacrifice the future well being of the game for short term financial gains.  These short sighted decisions will do long term damage but they couldn't care less.  It's all about cutting costs.  

Point well taken, but no one (even the owners) are suggesting getting rid of the minor leagues.  We're talking about a 16.67% reduction.  150 minor leaguers per org still provides plenty of washouts to go be coaches and steward the next the next generation of players.  Not to mention all the guys that played collegiately and didn't have what it takes to hack it in pro ball aren't eliminated from being travel ball coaches because they didn't play a couple seasons riding pine in the Pioneer league.  

I am not that passionate about it, but I don't think a 16.67% reduction in the size of the minor leagues is the death kneel to baseball.  There are plenty of other things that have resulted in today's youth having a lack of interest in the game, and a small reduction in minor league washouts being available to coach is pretty far down the list. 

[bmags]

We've all read the dayton moore quote but it's not like the only way to have that same thing happen is with the current affiliate system. They could provide better partnership opportunities for independent leagues, help expand baseball leagues to foreign markets, etc. The affiliates are a player development tool, and they can focus their marketing and growth in other areas that don't get collectively bargained.

[poppysox]

26 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Point well taken, but no one (even the owners) are suggesting getting rid of the minor leagues.  We're talking about a 16.67% reduction.  150 minor leaguers per org still provides plenty of washouts to go be coaches and steward the next the next generation of players.  Not to mention all the guys that played collegiately and didn't have what it takes to hack it in pro ball aren't eliminated from being travel ball coaches because they didn't play a couple seasons riding pine in the Pioneer league.  

I am not that passionate about it, but I don't think a 16.67% reduction in the size of the minor leagues is the death kneel to baseball.  There are plenty of other things that have resulted in today's youth having a lack of interest in the game, and a small reduction in minor league washouts being available to coach is pretty far down the list. 

These are negotiations...this is IMO just something to give in on much like DH in the NL.  Players never thought they would get early free agency...just something to give in on.  It isn't like anyone had to create 180 jobs in the first place.

[Harold's Leg Lift]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

I'm sorry Harold, but it's called "Saving America's Pastime."

Bunch of scumbags.

[caulfield12]

9 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

Start counting MiLB franchises.

But that's also counting international and DSL players....well, it used to be every team had a minimum of five US-based minor league affiliates, and quite a few had six, meaning two for rookie ball/short season, like Great Falls and Bristol with the Sox.

[caulfield12]

4 hours ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

Bunch of scumbags.

Let's save Jared (not Subway dude) first...

[MiddleCoastBias]

Mark Appel with a good a thread about being a minor leaguer and what they need to be successful re: housing, food, and off-season training. Lays out a pretty decent proposal that makes a ton of sense from the practical perspective, but owners will hate from a financial perspective.

https://twitter.com/markappel26/status/1493693618988720137?s=20&t=KaSaeV1eqf_cY7VrDvMcZA

[poppysox]

I wonder what is taking so long for the players to respond to the owner's latest offer.

[Balta1701]

27 minutes ago, poppysox said:

I wonder what is taking so long for the players to respond to the owner's latest offer.

Maybe the owners should lock them out, that will create pressure to get negotiations to happen faster.

[poppysox]

Just now, Balta1701 said:

Maybe the owners should lock them out, that will create pressure to get negotiations to happen faster.

Mediation was the way to go.

[Balta1701]

37 minutes ago, MiddleCoastBias said:

Mark Appel with a good a thread about being a minor leaguer and what they need to be successful re: housing, food, and off-season training. Lays out a pretty decent proposal that makes a ton of sense from the practical perspective, but owners will hate from a financial perspective.

https://twitter.com/markappel26/status/1493693618988720137?s=20&t=KaSaeV1eqf_cY7VrDvMcZA

What drives me batty is that it should pay for itself. One player coming up and being a utility guy for one year, making it so you don’t have to sign a Leury, is worth $5 million right now. One back of the bullpen reliever is worth a couple million in savings. For the White Sox, they’ve signed guys like Bonifacio and Beckham and spent millions on them. One guy who comes up and has a solid season could be worth way more than that. But they put guys at a disadvantage for such a small comparative cost savings? This doesn’t speak to these owners being very good businessmen, let alone anything about baseball.

[Dick Allen]

6 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

What drives me batty is that it should pay for itself. One player coming up and being a utility guy for one year, making it so you don’t have to sign a Leury, is worth $5 million right now. One back of the bullpen reliever is worth a couple million in savings. For the White Sox, they’ve signed guys like Bonifacio and Beckham and spent millions on them. One guy who comes up and has a solid season could be worth way more than that. But they put guys at a disadvantage for such a small comparative cost savings? This doesn’t speak to these owners being very good businessmen, let alone anything about baseball.

They spent $13 million on Yonder Alonso and Jon Jay.  It wouldn't cost them half of that to throw at their minor leagues and get better, cheaper solutions.

[southsider2k5]

10 minutes ago, poppysox said:

Mediation was the way to go.

Too bad the owners didn't accept the mediator the players proposed. 

[poppysox]

37 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Too bad the owners didn't accept the mediator the players proposed. 

I suspect you know better than that.

[MiddleCoastBias]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

What drives me batty is that it should pay for itself. One player coming up and being a utility guy for one year, making it so you don’t have to sign a Leury, is worth $5 million right now. One back of the bullpen reliever is worth a couple million in savings. For the White Sox, they’ve signed guys like Bonifacio and Beckham and spent millions on them. One guy who comes up and has a solid season could be worth way more than that. But they put guys at a disadvantage for such a small comparative cost savings? This doesn’t speak to these owners being very good businessmen, let alone anything about baseball.

Yep, the owners seem to work against their own long-term interests, saving a penny when it could pay off millions at the major league level. Just seems like the opportunity cost for teams to spend a little more earlier on to fully realize their prospects' potential could pay off huge down the line.

Hell, teams throw int'l signing bonus money at 16 year olds on pure speculation, then turn around and squeeze pennies on the development of these same players once they're in the fold. It just doesn't make sense for anyone involved.

[Tnetennba]

 

[Balta1701]

10 minutes ago, MiddleCoastBias said:

Yep, the owners seem to work against their own long-term interests, saving a penny when it could pay off millions at the major league level. Just seems like the opportunity cost for teams to spend a little more earlier on to fully realize their prospects' potential could pay off huge down the line.

Hell, teams throw int'l signing bonus money at 16 year olds on pure speculation, then turn around and squeeze pennies on the development of these same players once they're in the fold. It just doesn't make sense for anyone involved.

Want an example of a guy who had a bad offseason conditioning program and then his career completely changed when he improved that? Carlos Rodon. Obviously he also worked with a different pitching coach, but last year was the first offseason where he really was in proper shape by the end. Suddenly a cy young caliber pitcher, after badly struggling with injuries. 

Imagine that you draft and sign these guys and drop them into a culture where 95% of their teammates are working with trainers and coaches responsibly in the offseason. They’re all what, 18-23 years old? Do any of them pick up better habits? Make some changes in their body type as a consequence? Some scrawny kid starts putting on muscle late and suddenly they’re a 2.5 win RF and the roster saves $80 million? Those organizations that turn out positive minor leaguers regularly, could they have that type of culture? This seems like such a no brainer to me that I can’t figure out why it isn’t at the very top of an organizational priority list without insulting people, because it seems really stupid.

[SCCWS]

2 hours ago, poppysox said:

I wonder what is taking so long for the players to respond to the owner's latest offer.

The Lawyers are in no hurry. They punch clocks. .................................

[southsider2k5]

1 hour ago, poppysox said:

I suspect you know better than that.

Oh, are you saying there was an ulterior motive in offering a specific arbitrator?  Almost as if they knew it would be rigged against the ownership group?  Huh, I wonder why the owners offered arbitration then?  Was it almost a PR ploy which had no real chance at working?  Nah, the owners would ne...

 

[ptatc]

21 hours ago, bmags said:

Yeah, and I have to wonder if teams are also in the process of reconsidering whether the affiliate system is the be-all, end-all after the use of complexes during the pandemic. Playing real games is important, but we also know that players don't really do mid-season adjustments because it's too hard. Would it be better to just be in a complex, back-field league for the youngest players? Learning technique daily, working on swings, and playing games, etc. 

One thing though, is I don't know if Front Offices are consulted at all in these negotiations. I'd love to know their perspective on what they would push for in terms of game changes. I'm sure they would like the International market getting sorted out. I know Adam Silver did engage with NBA front offices in 2020 to get their ideas for how to make it work.

I think the pandemic really changed the way many organizations are thinking about preparing players for the MLB. There were many reports that the players that had the best opportunities to make the MLB received better instruction and development in the off site training as opposed to spending the vast majority of their time in games with the current MiLB set up. I think this is the second step, the first was decreasing the number of minor league teams, in phasing out the current development system. They didn't just want to end on MiLB teams as it could be catastrophic to lose all of that employment overnight.

[southsider2k5]