How does the guy who finishes 3rd in fWAR among 3B in all of MLB not get nominated for SS or GG?

11 minutes ago, CentralChamps21 said:

How does the guy who finishes 3rd in fWAR among 3B in all of MLB not get nominated for SS or GG?

He definitely didn't deserve a SS nomination. Gold Glove is a travesty.

18 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

How does the guy who finishes 3rd in fWAR among 3B in all of MLB not get nominated for SS or GG?

According to baseball savant, Yoan was T-25th among qualified third baseman for Outs Above Average in 2021. In fact, they say he prevented (-1) runs.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/outs_above_average?type=Fielder&startYear=2021&endYear=2021&split=no&team=&range=year&min=q&pos=5&roles=&viz=show

So maybe he isn't a stand out defender? To be honest, my knowledge of fielding metrics is limited so I'm not sure.

Edited October 29, 20214 yr by KipWellsFan
Grammar

16 hours ago, KipWellsFan said:

According to baseball savant, Yoan was T-25th among qualified third baseman for Outs Above Average in 2021. In fact, they say he was prevented (-1) runs.

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/outs_above_average?type=Fielder&startYear=2021&endYear=2021&split=no&team=&range=year&min=q&pos=5&roles=&viz=show

So maybe he isn't a stand out defender? To be honest, my knowledge of fielding metrics is limited so I'm not sure.

Defensive metrics often give massively different results. I believe people put the most faith in the savant one but they make them all different so the fans can argue

16 minutes ago, MackowiakYakYak said:

Defensive metrics often give massively different results. I believe people put the most faith in the savant one but they make them all different so the fans can argue

Unfortunately, all of the defensive metrics last year say Moncada was middle of the pack average. Not terrible, but not deserving of being in the Gold Glove conversation.

8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Unfortunately, all of the defensive metrics last year say Moncada was middle of the pack average. Not terrible, but not deserving of being in the Gold Glove conversation.

I retract my earlier statement upon further review and admit my biases were similar to old school dudes who get wowed by flash plays.

I just wish the guy could get past the 3rd inning, the GG award be damned 

If I’m Hahn, I’m definitely calling up Farhan and selling him on how Dallas and his gold glove caliber defense could really help them out next year.  ?

Edited October 29, 20214 yr by Chicago White Sox

Now, if only Keuchel could pitch.

19 hours ago, Jerry McNertney said:

Now, if only Keuchel could pitch.

And the rest of the pitching staff could be GG finalists.  

2 hours ago, kitekrazy said:

And the rest of the pitching staff could be GG finalists.  

I'll settle for them even attempting to stop runners. 

23 minutes ago, ron883 said:

I'll settle for them even attempting to stop runners. 

Definitely.  Lack of fundamentals seems a staple in this organization.

Keuchel won the gold glove. If you're going to lap the field in balls in play, you better field your position at an elite level.

Edited November 8, 20214 yr by CentralChamps21

 

Probably the only thing he was good at this season, so congrats to Keuchel.

Marcus Semien (the whole defensive recognition for overwhelming offensive and above average D award), O'Neill (St.Louis), Adam Duvall...among the interesting names that won.

 

2 hours ago, CentralChamps21 said:

Keuchel won the gold glove. If you're going to lap the field in balls in play, you better field your position at an elite level.

Many of those balls were fielded in self-defense.  Joking aside, he does induce a lot of ground balls.

Well worth 18 million a year or so.

8 hours ago, Stinky Stanky said:

Many of those balls were fielded in self-defense.  Joking aside, he does induce a lot of ground balls.

Well, that's the problem. Keuch is a ground ball pitcher - that's what he gets paid to do. But in 2021, he started giving up fly balls and fairly hard hit flies at that. Whether he can correct what went wrong is the question mark with him.  He took a lot of flak for his comments on the positioning of fielders as if he were criticizing his team mates, when he was mostly critiquing the coaching that was calling the defensive positions. However, he dropped the ball in getting hit so hard and missing the zone so much that the alignments almost didn't matter. 
If Keuchel can get his true sinker and low stuff in order and the infield is set and adjusted to his game, he could still be effective. The first is anyone's guess as to how well he gets back on track - the second is reliant on the willingness of TLR and Co. to start playing smarter in the field re: pitcher/batter matchups.

Edited November 8, 20214 yr by FoxForce2

40 minutes ago, FoxForce2 said:

Well, that's the problem. Keuch is a ground ball pitcher - that's what he gets paid to do. But in 2021, he started giving up fly balls and fairly hard hit flies at that. Whether he can correct what went wrong is the question mark with him.  He took a lot of flak for his comments on the positioning of fielders as if he were criticizing his team mates, when he was mostly critiquing the coaching that was calling the defensive positions. However, he dropped the ball in getting hit so hard and missing the zone so much that the alignments almost didn't matter. 
If Keuchel can get his true sinker and low stuff in order and the infield is set and adjusted to his game, he could still be effective. The first is anyone's guess as to how well he gets back on track - the second is reliant on the willingness of TLR and Co. to start playing smarter in the field re: pitcher/batter matchups.

Just going through Keuchel’s 2020 and 2021 stats and some of this is hard to interpret. Did you know he actual had a higher ground ball rate in 2021 than in 2020? Going through is stats a lot of the massive drop off is hard to explain. Not a big difference in how many strikes he threw, not a big difference in the opposing swing profiles in and out of the zone. The heat maps on his pitches look generally similar, it doesn’t look like he was missing up with his sinker unusually much. Each of his pitches just got worse.

Some of that is likely just luck. He had a great HR/FB rate in 2020 that probably wouldn’t have lasted an entire season, 2021 that did shoot back up, although not the worst of his career. 2020 BABIP was narrowly the best of his career, comparable to his best seasons in Houston, while in 2021 it was his worst since 2013. No drop in velocity. There is some funkiness with his spin rates the last 2 years but it’s not totally clear that means anything - his slider spin rate shot up in 2021 for example. I could certainly be missing something but he doesn’t look like that different of a pitcher in his profile as he does in the results.

Short season is probably part of the story, defense is probably part of it, but it also just seems that he plain got hit harder. Exit velocity was a career worst on his slider and 4 seamer, second worst on his changeup. But, nothing special about exit velocity on his sinker. If you told me he was tipping his offspeed stuff I would probably believe that.

33 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Just going through Keuchel’s 2020 and 2021 stats and some of this is hard to interpret. Did you know he actual had a higher ground ball rate in 2021 than in 2020? Going through is stats a lot of the massive drop off is hard to explain. Not a big difference in how many strikes he threw, not a big difference in the opposing swing profiles in and out of the zone. The heat maps on his pitches look generally similar, it doesn’t look like he was missing up with his sinker unusually much. Each of his pitches just got worse.

Some of that is likely just luck. He had a great HR/FB rate in 2020 that probably wouldn’t have lasted an entire season, 2021 that did shoot back up, although not the worst of his career. 2020 BABIP was narrowly the best of his career, comparable to his best seasons in Houston, while in 2021 it was his worst since 2013. No drop in velocity. There is some funkiness with his spin rates the last 2 years but it’s not totally clear that means anything - his slider spin rate shot up in 2021 for example. I could certainly be missing something but he doesn’t look like that different of a pitcher in his profile as he does in the results.

Short season is probably part of the story, defense is probably part of it, but it also just seems that he plain got hit harder. Exit velocity was a career worst on his slider and 4 seamer, second worst on his changeup. But, nothing special about exit velocity on his sinker. If you told me he was tipping his offspeed stuff I would probably believe that.

Or that a lack of tack in the 2nd half of the season when he fell apart was the problem.

2 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Or that a lack of tack in the 2nd half of the season when he fell apart was the problem.

As I said in that post there is some funkiness in his spin rates, but it’s not a clear pattern. His 2 seamer spin rate dropped compared to 2020, but his slider spin rate shot up in 2021 to the highest of his career. There’s also no obvious drop off when the rule came into effect. I can’t rule it out, but a first look doesn’t scream that as the answer.

39 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

Just going through Keuchel’s 2020 and 2021 stats and some of this is hard to interpret. Did you know he actual had a higher ground ball rate in 2021 than in 2020? Going through is stats a lot of the massive drop off is hard to explain. Not a big difference in how many strikes he threw, not a big difference in the opposing swing profiles in and out of the zone. The heat maps on his pitches look generally similar, it doesn’t look like he was missing up with his sinker unusually much. Each of his pitches just got worse.

Some of that is likely just luck. He had a great HR/FB rate in 2020 that probably wouldn’t have lasted an entire season, 2021 that did shoot back up, although not the worst of his career. 2020 BABIP was narrowly the best of his career, comparable to his best seasons in Houston, while in 2021 it was his worst since 2013. No drop in velocity. There is some funkiness with his spin rates the last 2 years but it’s not totally clear that means anything - his slider spin rate shot up in 2021 for example. I could certainly be missing something but he doesn’t look like that different of a pitcher in his profile as he does in the results.

Short season is probably part of the story, defense is probably part of it, but it also just seems that he plain got hit harder. Exit velocity was a career worst on his slider and 4 seamer, second worst on his changeup. But, nothing special about exit velocity on his sinker. If you told me he was tipping his offspeed stuff I would probably believe that.

Not only was his GB number up, but his FB rate was up as well. Barrels, hard hit and HR's were above or near career highs. The fact that he's gone much more to his change in the past two years stands out. He's using the slider sparingly. Pitches in-zone was down. Velocities are pretty much unchanged over the past 5 years.  Bottom line for 2021 is that all of his pitches were valued in the negative.
My impression was that he was getting behind in the count and was often forced to come into the zone and usually TOO into the zone.  I don't have numbers on that. Control problems - loss of precision. Simple aging?
<------ shrugs. I dunno.

Good defense beats bad pitching. .

Congrats DK!