25 minutes ago, tray said:

Dude, don't put words in my mouth.  Winning at any and all costs is not what it is all about, and it is not sustainable.

You literally said that, though

25 minutes ago, tray said:

Dude, don't put words in my mouth.  Winning at any and all costs is not what it is all about, and it is not sustainable.

Dying over here.

So what is it about? Homegrown talent? Because Jerry has shown Frank Thomas, Mark Buehrle, and Jose Abreu the door. 

He also didn't spend on the draft when he could have and the Sox don't spend on scouting compared to other franchises.

Is it about a fan experience? Because while I love The Cell (the only park I've ever known), he had the chance to have Camden Yards with the Chicago skyline in the background. Or the beautiful Armor Square Park design that has floated over the years. Instead, they've spent millions fixing a blighted stadium ridiculed for initially being a cookie cutter eyesore.

I will note that the Cell has the best food in the majors and the lower level is phenomenal. Upper Deck sucks ass, especially compared to other stadiums.

Oh, let's also remember that he passed up the name Wintrust Field at Comiskey Park, the ultimate good will name with fans, for a giant down arrow.

Jerry has one thing: He's a loyal man. It's commendable. But his loyalty has also destroyed another shot at winning that didn't require winning at any cost because he had to bring back a has-been manager who couldn't stay awake in dugouts.

1 minute ago, Quin said:

Dying over here.

So what is it about? Homegrown talent? Because Jerry has shown Frank Thomas, Mark Buehrle, and Jose Abreu the door. 

He also didn't spend on the draft when he could have and the Sox don't spend on scouting compared to other franchises.

Is it about a fan experience? Because while I love The Cell (the only park I've ever known), he had the chance to have Camden Yards with the Chicago skyline in the background. Or the beautiful Armor Square Park design that has floated over the years. Instead, they've spent millions fixing a blighted stadium ridiculed for initially being a cookie cutter eyesore.

I will note that the Cell has the best food in the majors and the lower level is phenomenal. Upper Deck sucks ass, especially compared to other stadiums.

Oh, let's also remember that he passed up the name Wintrust Field at Comiskey Park, the ultimate good will name with fans, for a giant down arrow.

Jerry has one thing: He's a loyal man. It's commendable. But his loyalty has also destroyed another shot at winning that didn't require winning at any cost because he had to bring back a has-been manager who couldn't stay awake in dugouts.

JR also took a pass on building a new stadium in the South Loop at Roosevelt and Clark. The City of Chicago wanted  to build the stadium and JR wasn't interested. I've never met anybody who thought the team was better off at  the present location as opposed to the South Loop.

Well done tray, well done

12 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

JR also took a pass on building a new stadium in the South Loop at Roosevelt and Clark. The City of Chicago wanted  to build the stadium and JR wasn't interested. I've never met anybody who thought the team was better off at  the present location as opposed to the South Loop.

This is factually incorrect.  The Sox agreed to the South Loop stadium, the city wouldn't do it unless the Sox and Bears agreed to it.  The Bears were the ones that blocked it.

STADIUM WINS OVER SOX, BUT NOT BEARS – Chicago Tribune

3 minutes ago, ThirdGen said:

This is factually incorrect.  The Sox agreed to the South Loop stadium, the city wouldn't do it unless the Sox and Bears agreed to it.  The Bears were the ones that blocked it.

STADIUM WINS OVER SOX, BUT NOT BEARS – Chicago Tribune

JR wanted to go to Dupage county where he happened to own the land were the stadium was going to be built. When the team moved from Sarasota Florida to Tuscon Arizona for spring training, JR owned the land were the stadium was built. I'm still hoping they  move to the South Loop  when this lease expires in a few years.

1 hour ago, tray said:

The Sox franchise is stronger now...much stronger than when Reinsdorf took over. And it is not even close.  That's just a fact.  There are 30MLB teams to compete with on the field and many of them are either major market teams, or teams that have over-performed with respect to their market size, like the Rays , KC, or the Cardinals - teams you cannot count on beating in certain years or out-bidding for FA.  Did anyone really expect Judge, Correa, Trea Turner to sign here?

The measure of a successful franchise over time is stability. That is why the Cubs have many fans even though they barely won one WS in well over 100 years.  Any calls from cub fans or Ricketts to sell?  Any signs outside of Wrigley?  What is with this circular firing squad on the South side about ? Cry babies wanting to win by having an owner who throw money at player contracts every year like a drunken sailor?  And what is the true value of winning when the championship has to  be bought and paid for? That is a larger question for mlb to address.

There is a lot of truth to this. Many don't remember the late sixties and seventies when the Sox were barely solvent. Moves to Milwaukee with actual games played there, moves to Seattle and Denver almost happened. They stopped firing fireworks after homeruns for a while because the supplier cut them off for non payment.  Debartolo was thought to be a savior but was rumored to be thinking of New Orleans as their future home.  In the early 1900's NY, Boston, Philadephia, St Louis Chicago all had more than one team.  Chicago somehow was the only market to maintain both teams from that era.  We used to have two NFL teams, one moved.  The fact that the Sox and Cubs have survived in one market for as long as they have is truly remarkable. JR should get a lot of credit for this, he made unpopular threats and moves that eventually secured the Sox. At this point, and probably for the last 15 years or so he has been unwilling or unable to do what is now necessary to win. Recognizing this isn't being a cry baby, its facing reality.  JR probably saved the Sox for Chicago and should be regarded as such.  But he is not capable of running a team in this era. 

30 minutes ago, Quin said:

Dying over here.

So what is it about? Homegrown talent? Because Jerry has shown Frank Thomas, Mark Buehrle, and Jose Abreu the door. 

He also didn't spend on the draft when he could have and the Sox don't spend on scouting compared to other franchises.

Is it about a fan experience? Because while I love The Cell (the only park I've ever known), he had the chance to have Camden Yards with the Chicago skyline in the background. Or the beautiful Armor Square Park design that has floated over the years. Instead, they've spent millions fixing a blighted stadium ridiculed for initially being a cookie cutter eyesore.

I will note that the Cell has the best food in the majors and the lower level is phenomenal. Upper Deck sucks ass, especially compared to other stadiums.

Oh, let's also remember that he passed up the name Wintrust Field at Comiskey Park, the ultimate good will name with fans, for a giant down arrow.

Jerry has one thing: He's a loyal man. It's commendable. But his loyalty has also destroyed another shot at winning that didn't require winning at any cost because he had to bring back a has-been manager who couldn't stay awake in dugouts.

I don’t know if I could love a post more. 

1 minute ago, ThirdGen said:

There is a lot of truth to this. Many don't remember the late sixties and seventies when the Sox were barely solvent. Moves to Milwaukee with actual games played there, moves to Seattle and Denver almost happened. They stopped firing fireworks after homeruns for a while because the supplier cut them off for non payment.  Debartolo was thought to be a savior but was rumored to be thinking of New Orleans as their future home.  In the early 1900's NY, Boston, Philadephia, St Louis Chicago all had more than one team.  Chicago somehow was the only market to maintain both teams from that era.  We used to have two NFL teams, one moved.  The fact that the Sox and Cubs have survived in one market for as long as they have is truly remarkable. JR should get a lot of credit for this, he made unpopular threats and moves that eventually secured the Sox. At this point, and probably for the last 15 years or so he has been unwilling or unable to do what is now necessary to win. Recognizing this isn't being a cry baby, its facing reality.  JR probably saved the Sox for Chicago and should be regarded as such.  But he is not capable of running a team in this era. 

I mean, the Dodgers and Giants only moved because Robert Moses was a dick and wanted them to move to Queens, when both teams wanted to stay in Brooklyn and Manhattan, respectively. The Mets moving right in shows that NY could always support two teams.

1 hour ago, tray said:

The Sox franchise is stronger now...much stronger than when Reinsdorf took over. And it is not even close.  That's just a fact.  There are 30MLB teams to compete with on the field and many of them are either major market teams, or teams that have over-performed with respect to their market size, like the Rays , KC, or the Cardinals - teams you cannot count on beating in certain years or out-bidding for FA.  Did anyone really expect Judge, Correa, Trea Turner to sign here?

The measure of a successful franchise over time is stability. That is why the Cubs have many fans even though they barely won one WS in well over 100 years.  Any calls from cub fans or Ricketts to sell?  Any signs outside of Wrigley?  What is with this circular firing squad on the South side about ? Cry babies wanting to win by having an owner who throw money at player contracts every year like a drunken sailor?  And what is the true value of winning when the championship has to  be bought and paid for? That is a larger question for mlb to address.

Holy hell. 

4 minutes ago, Quin said:

I mean, the Dodgers and Giants only moved because Robert Moses was a dick and wanted them to move to Queens, when both teams wanted to stay in Brooklyn and Manhattan, respectively. The Mets moving right in shows that NY could always support two teams.

Moses was a major problem for them, but neither team was doing well financially at the time either.  No doubt NY could support two teams, the market is much larger than Chicago. Three teams was probably a stretch, particularly sharing a market with the Yankees in the 1950's.

6 minutes ago, Quin said:

I mean, the Dodgers and Giants only moved because Robert Moses was a dick and wanted them to move to Queens, when both teams wanted to stay in Brooklyn and Manhattan, respectively. The Mets moving right in shows that NY could always support two teams.

If anything NYC needs one or two more teams.  When you look at their population draw and their average income in the area, there is a reason they are able to spend more than anywhere else in baseball.  It will never happen, but that would be the best thing to happen to baseball in terms of balance and equity.

18 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

JR wanted to go to Dupage county where he happened to own the land were the stadium was going to be built. When the team moved from Sarasota Florida to Tuscon Arizona for spring training, JR owned the land were the stadium was built. I'm still hoping they  move to the South Loop  when this lease expires in a few years.

The attempted Addison move was just after the South Loop deal fell through.  The residents rejected a referendum basically blocking that move.  That land currently houses Dave and Busters among others.

 

12 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If anything NYC needs one or two more teams.  When you look at their population draw and their average income in the area, there is a reason they are able to spend more than anywhere else in baseball.  It will never happen, but that would be the best thing to happen to baseball in terms of balance and equity.

This actually has been floated from time to time. The last time I remember was when the Expos were ready to move.

56 minutes ago, Quin said:

Dying over here.

So what is it about? Homegrown talent? Because Jerry has shown Frank Thomas, Mark Buehrle, and Jose Abreu the door. 

He also didn't spend on the draft when he could have and the Sox don't spend on scouting compared to other franchises.

Is it about a fan experience? Because while I love The Cell (the only park I've ever known), he had the chance to have Camden Yards with the Chicago skyline in the background. Or the beautiful Armor Square Park design that has floated over the years. Instead, they've spent millions fixing a blighted stadium ridiculed for initially being a cookie cutter eyesore.

I will note that the Cell has the best food in the majors and the lower level is phenomenal. Upper Deck sucks ass, especially compared to other stadiums.

Oh, let's also remember that he passed up the name Wintrust Field at Comiskey Park, the ultimate good will name with fans, for a giant down arrow.

Jerry has one thing: He's a loyal man. It's commendable. But his loyalty has also destroyed another shot at winning that didn't require winning at any cost because he had to bring back a has-been manager who couldn't stay awake in dugouts.

True...but loyalty without accountability (in other words blind loyalty) is usually counter productive and sometime dangerous.

Edited December 15, 20223 yr by Lip Man 1

1 hour ago, tray said:

The Sox franchise is stronger now...much stronger than when Reinsdorf took over. And it is not even close.  That's just a fact.  There are 30MLB teams to compete with on the field and many of them are either major market teams, or teams that have over-performed with respect to their market size, like the Rays , KC, or the Cardinals - teams you cannot count on beating in certain years or out-bidding for FA.  Did anyone really expect Judge, Correa, Trea Turner to sign here?

The measure of a successful franchise over time is stability. That is why the Cubs have many fans even though they barely won one WS in well over 100 years.  Any calls from cub fans or Ricketts to sell?  Any signs outside of Wrigley?  What is with this circular firing squad on the South side about ? Cry babies wanting to win by having an owner who throw money at player contracts every year like a drunken sailor?  And what is the true value of winning when the championship has to  be bought and paid for? That is a larger question for mlb to address.

Good lord, so how are you related to JR?  Cause this post is just hilariously awful.

Edited December 15, 20223 yr by Rowand44

18 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

If anything NYC needs one or two more teams.  When you look at their population draw and their average income in the area, there is a reason they are able to spend more than anywhere else in baseball.  It will never happen, but that would be the best thing to happen to baseball in terms of balance and equity.

That's an interesting thought. And I know you've already acknowledged it will never happen but can you imagine the litigation on media rights if another team were to try to enter the market? Wasn't it San Diego and LAD that have been fighting over media rights for basically all of southern California? 

Now that has me thinking of how difficult it will be to move a team *anywhere* (aside from Montreal, maybe) that won't face a major fight on media rights with all of the exclusive TV deals now.

1 hour ago, southsider2k5 said:

If anything NYC needs one or two more teams.  When you look at their population draw and their average income in the area, there is a reason they are able to spend more than anywhere else in baseball.  It will never happen, but that would be the best thing to happen to baseball in terms of balance and equity.

Put it in Hartford.  Wealthy area, would pull revenue away from both NY and Boston.  I know the NHL didn't stick there, but that was a different sport many years ago.

1 hour ago, ThirdGen said:

Moses was a major problem for them, but neither team was doing well financially at the time either.  No doubt NY could support two teams, the market is much larger than Chicago. Three teams was probably a stretch, particularly sharing a market with the Yankees in the 1950's.

Just for additional insight, here's attendance from 1948-1957 for all three clubs (not refuting what you're saying; just thought it might be interesting to look at the trend):

Giants:
1948    1,459,269
1949    1,218,446
1950    1,008,878
1951    1,059,539 (Pennant)
1952    984,940
1953    811,518
1954    1,155,067 (WS)
1955    824,112
1956    629,179
1957    653,923

Dodgers:
1948    1,398,967
1949    1,633,747 (Pennant)
1950    1,185,896
1951    1,282,628 (84 home games)
1952    1,088,704 (Pennant)
1953    1,163,419 (Pennant)
1954    1,020,531
1955    1,033,589 (WS)
1956    1,213,562 (Pennant)
1957    1,028,258

Yankees:
1948    2,373,901
1949    2,283,676 (WS)
1950    2,081,380 (WS)
1951    1,950,107 (WS)
1952    1,629,665 (WS)
1953    1,537,811 (WS)
1954    1,475,171
1955    1,490,138 (Pennant)
1956    1,491,784 (WS)
1957    1,497,134 (Pennant)

1 hour ago, MiddleCoastBias said:

That's an interesting thought. And I know you've already acknowledged it will never happen but can you imagine the litigation on media rights if another team were to try to enter the market? Wasn't it San Diego and LAD that have been fighting over media rights for basically all of southern California? 

Now that has me thinking of how difficult it will be to move a team *anywhere* (aside from Montreal, maybe) that won't face a major fight on media rights with all of the exclusive TV deals now.

I was thinking of the fight over Washington DC with Baltimore doing everything they could to block it.

1 hour ago, Hamhock said:

Just for additional insight, here's attendance from 1948-1957 for all three clubs (not refuting what you're saying; just thought it might be interesting to look at the trend):

Giants:
1948    1,459,269
1949    1,218,446
1950    1,008,878
1951    1,059,539 (Pennant)
1952    984,940
1953    811,518
1954    1,155,067 (WS)
1955    824,112
1956    629,179
1957    653,923

Dodgers:
1948    1,398,967
1949    1,633,747 (Pennant)
1950    1,185,896
1951    1,282,628 (84 home games)
1952    1,088,704 (Pennant)
1953    1,163,419 (Pennant)
1954    1,020,531
1955    1,033,589 (WS)
1956    1,213,562 (Pennant)
1957    1,028,258

Yankees:
1948    2,373,901
1949    2,283,676 (WS)
1950    2,081,380 (WS)
1951    1,950,107 (WS)
1952    1,629,665 (WS)
1953    1,537,811 (WS)
1954    1,475,171
1955    1,490,138 (Pennant)
1956    1,491,784 (WS)
1957    1,497,134 (Pennant)

Yeah, even if the Dodgers had worked out their stadium issue with Moses, the Giants were leaving anyway. Think I heard Minneapolis had been on their radar for a few years before they agreed to move west with dodgers.

So, are the Cubs a "successful franchise"   ? Yes of No? Great trade of Cease and Eloy to the Sox...Great trade to get Madrigal. Any Cub fans pining for Rickettes to sell? As much as Cub fans whine, it seems like nothing compared to this.  But maybe it is a generational thing.  My guess is that most posters here weren't even born when JR bought the W Sox and cannot fully understand the state of the franchise before he acquired it.  Old Comiskey was a dilapidated, filthy , dump. Extremely limited parking around the  stadium and given its condition and the probable move of the Sox out of town, no incentive for real estate investment in the surrounding area. Saving the Sox for Chicago  was critical to the neighborhood and it meant everything for Sox fans.

Unfortunately, JR and the late Einhorn made some serious mistakes by firing Harry Carey, moving off channel 9, and selecting an incompetent relative to select the location, the architectural firm  and the design for the new stadium. It was and arguably is one of the worst in baseball. JR made some  efforts to correct things by cutting rows off the upper deck, changing every seat from the original blue color, adding parking , etc, , and it is now just OK.

JR has stayed within a budget not because he is cheap but because it is a business.   He feels that spending on player contracts like the LA Angels does not guarantee "multiple championships"  That is a promise that Hahn made and one that he has to live with.

 

I sense a lot of frustration and even some anger. Maybe try to be grateful for what we have in Chicago...and what you have in life. And try to place things in perspective if you can.

19 minutes ago, tray said:

I sense a lot of frustration and even some anger. Maybe try to be grateful for what we have in Chicago...and what you have in life. And try to place things in perspective if you can.

No.