2nd Base I guess it’s going to be Sosa or Gonzalez?

[Eminor3rd]

1 hour ago, ChiSox59 said:

Grandal has said he's healthy right now.  People can recover from back injuries.  They just need him to be like 60% of his 2019-2021 self to be useful in a platoon.  If he simply can't do it, they have Zavala who is already at least an average MLB catcher - 1.9 fWAR in 2022 was good for 7th in the AL, and 13th in the game.  His fWAR per game played ranked 7th in the game in 2022.

Now is that sustainable for Seby?  Probably not.  But he's at least a league averagish catcher by measure of fWAR.  If Seby had options, I'd be all for brining in another catcher.  But let's not act like the FA market was flush with good options for what they needed.  It just is what it is with Grandal.  Hope he's healthy and can produce in a part time role.  If not, you cut bait in May or June and Seby and Perez duke it out.  Sox also signed that Rivero kid from KC who Grifol loves and at least you have a guy who can excel defensively back there in the event he is needed. I also think Grifol's influence on Seby behind the plate shouldn't be downplayed. 

I made a post a few weeks back about why I didn’t understand what the Blue Jays were doing, having traded most of their OF away before suddenly aggressively trading FOR OFers, but then several posters pointed out that they actually got a whole lot better, at least potentially, in the process because in shuffling those pieces around, they improved the defense drastically while also rebalancing  the handedness in their lineup.

That’s the type of front office work that makes it hard to accept what the Sox have done at catcher. You’ve done your best to steelman what Hahn has done, but unfortunately the argument comes down (as it so often does) to “well if these guys just stay healthy and play up to their potential, it’ll be alright,” which just doesn’t cut it when you’re talking about guys that are over 30 and (in this case) piling up chronic injuries.

I mean, I was equally confused with the Murphy trade talk because, before we learned about Grandal’s health situation, it seemed like there were positions that should have been higher priorities. In retrospect, it made a ton of sense to be aggressive there and, once again, they just didn’t get it done. And, man, we can come with excuses about why it was hard or maybe not even possible in this instance, but at the end of the day, this is a remarkably consistent pattern of results that becomes more glaringly unacceptable when you watch another team pull off something similar in the same timeframe. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

10 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

I’m not anti rookie, but rookies usually struggle at some, point if not right away.  A supposed championship window isn’t when you usually put that much on them. Who do they have to give Colas a break if he needs if? Who do they have if he struggles? He might be great right away, but it’s unlikely. And they are doing it at 2B as well. Why can’t they ever really go for it?

That's why I wanted Colas up at the end of last year. A lot of people were against it and still want the Sox to gain the extra year. We know rookies struggle. It would have been nice to get any struggles out of the way at the end of the season. Now if he struggles it'll have to be  when , after they hold him down to get the extra year ?

People also got sick of me mentioning Outman, another rookie, but right about now he's looking better and better as 4th OF, but the Dodgers are themselves thin in the OF so it's highly unlikely they trade him. Duvall will cost probably closer to $10M than $5M ,maybe right in the middle at $7.5M, but right now, as fans ,we are in the unenviable position of not knowing if they spend any more or how much if they do.  Spending another $15M could get them what they need or spend $7/8M and make a trade.

Hahn doesn't seem to want to trade any of our top rookies so that doesn't leave much to trade with unless you find takers for Sheets, Burger, Yolbert Sanchez, or Cespedes.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 hours ago, Texsox said:

Yep. And 87 might be optimistic. They are a couple injuries from a 79 win team. 

You are right.Even with reasonable health you still have to get some career years from guys like Eloy and Robert to get favorable outcomes. Kopech, Giolito, Lynn, Clevinger are all guys who can be much better or total blahs. Anderson has to field better and still hit.

Grandal could be feeling 100% better and screw up his back in the 1st week playing in bad weather. He better be rubbing the Tiger Balm or Icy Hot or over his damn body. Maybe the rest of the team should too, all over their hamstrings, obliques, shoulders, elbows, quads, calves, groins (be careful with the IcY Hot there). Go out there smelling like an old folks home.

 

[Texsox]

3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

They were an 81 win team last year, almost no one was healthy, nearly everything went wrong and were managed by a guy that appeared to intentionally put them in a terrible position to win each night.  We basically played the entire 2nd half of the season without TA or Robert.  Robert had 0 HRs and 2 RBI after July 14th. Sure, we lost an aging Abreu.  That hurts.  But our defense has improved drastically getting AV out out the OF, and our lineup is going to perform better against RHP with Benintendi and Colas in the lineup.

IMO, "a couple injuries away from a 79 team" seems wildly pessimistic considering what we saw in 2022. 

It is wildly pessimistic. Still we lost our best player and the core we count on are on the downside age wise of their careers or sustained potentially career limiting injuries. We didn't address key problem areas like RF and C. Plenty of reasons to be neutral or slightly pessimistic. 

[Texsox]

19 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

You are right.Even with reasonable health you still have to get some career years from guys like Eloy and Robert to get favorable outcomes. Kopech, Giolito, Lynn, Clevinger are all guys who can be much better or total blahs. Anderson has to field better and still hit.

Grandal could be feeling 100% better and screw up his back in the 1st week playing in bad weather. He better be rubbing the Tiger Balm or Icy Hot or over his damn body. Maybe the rest of the team should too, all over their hamstrings, obliques, shoulders, elbows, quads, calves, groins (be careful with the IcY Hot there). Go out there smelling like an old folks home.

 

Come on it's baseball, they will use 

 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Come on it's baseball, they will use 

 

Better get it by the 5 gallon drum !

[Texsox]

Just now, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

Better get it by the 5 gallon drum !

Just fill the hot tub and dip them. 

[Tony]

2 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

I guess I don't really follow.  Be mad, gnash your teeth and light your pitchforks if you wish.  There is good reason to be fed up - the Sox were awful in 2022, and have mostly botched every decision of note since losing to Oakland in October 2020.

But you cannot possibly be suggesting the Chicago White Sox were going to operate with a $250M payroll in 2023.  Its just not reality. 

You can carry 2 MLB catchers on the roster.  One of them is getting paid $18.25M and is going nowhere because of that.  He has also been the 2nd or 3rd best catcher in the game over the past half decade +, and if he can get healthy, its reasonable to expect a better 2023.  Seby Zavala by measure of fWAR was the 6th most valuable catcher in the AL last season. He is also out of options.  Again, there is no room to add another catcher to the roster. 

Clevinger was a perfectly acceptable backend SP add with upside.  I see no reason to be upset about that move. 

Yes, the lack of any move at 2B is frustrating.  I agree.  But again they weren't going to blow by $200M payroll, and its reasonable to expect that Sosa/Romy/JRod can give you close to what Harrison did for 15% of the cost.

It was pretty obvious that the Sox were going to move on from Tony, add around the edges with a focus on getting more left handed and better defensively, and run it back in 2023.  And that is what they've done to date.  I struggle to see why anyone would be surprised by this. 

I thought I explained it pretty clearly, but I’ll try one more time, and keep it simpler. 
 

No one is surprised by the moves they made this offseason. It’s what the White Sox do. 
 

We shouldn’t accept it being OK. 

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

2 minutes ago, Texsox said:

Just fill the hot tub and dip them. 

There are areas that you do not want to get that stuff on !

[TheFutureIsNear]

3 hours ago, ChiSox59 said:

I guess I don't really follow.  Be mad, gnash your teeth and light your pitchforks if you wish.  There is good reason to be fed up - the Sox were awful in 2022, and have mostly botched every decision of note since losing to Oakland in October 2020.

But you cannot possibly be suggesting the Chicago White Sox were going to operate with a $250M payroll in 2023.  Its just not reality. 

You can carry 2 MLB catchers on the roster.  One of them is getting paid $18.25M and is going nowhere because of that.  He has also been the 2nd or 3rd best catcher in the game over the past half decade +, and if he can get healthy, its reasonable to expect a better 2023.  Seby Zavala by measure of fWAR was the 6th most valuable catcher in the AL last season. He is also out of options.  Again, there is no room to add another catcher to the roster. 

Clevinger was a perfectly acceptable backend SP add with upside.  I see no reason to be upset about that move. 

Yes, the lack of any move at 2B is frustrating.  I agree.  But again they weren't going to blow by $200M payroll, and its reasonable to expect that Sosa/Romy/JRod can give you close to what Harrison did for 15% of the cost.

It was pretty obvious that the Sox were going to move on from Tony, add around the edges with a focus on getting more left handed and better defensively, and run it back in 2023.  And that is what they've done to date.  I struggle to see why anyone would be surprised by this. 

I agree with most/all of this. We can all b**** and moan about more than a handful of things Hahn and the front office have done/not don’t in the past 2-3 years. But right now? Short of saying the Sox should have signed Nimmo, Turner or Carlos I struggle to point to many/any moves made that make me think “the Sox really missed out.”
Especially in RF, again, short of signing Nimmo I’m not sure there was a move to be made that justifies blocking Colas.

Even 2B, would Segura have been nice? Sure, but is the difference between Segura and seeing what we have in Romy/Sosa going to make or break this year? I highly doubt it. Not sure what other legit 2B we could get either.
And not sure what was expected out of a 5th starter, but Clevinger was a perfectly logical fit with upside.
 

Now there are definitely still moves to be made to round out this roster (viable 4th OF’er and SP depth at least) and if they aren’t made I totally understand and will participate in the bitching. 
 

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by TheFutureIsNear

[Dick Allen]

8 hours ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

I agree with most/all of this. We can all b**** and moan about more than a handful of things Hahn and the front office have done/not don’t in the past 2-3 years. But right now? Short of saying the Sox should have signed Nimmo, Turner or Carlos I struggle to point to many/any moves made that make me think “the Sox really missed out.”
Especially in RF, again, short of signing Nimmo I’m not sure there was a move to be made that justifies blocking Colas.

Even 2B, would Segura have been nice? Sure, but is the difference between Segura and seeing what we have in Romy/Sosa going to make or break this year? I highly doubt it. Not sure what other legit 2B we could get either.
And not sure what was expected out of a 5th starter, but Clevinger was a perfectly logical fit with upside.
 

Now there are definitely still moves to be made to round out this roster (viable 4th OF’er and SP depth at least) and if they aren’t made I totally understand and will participate in the bitching. 
 

 

Thats just because you have accepted the White Sox way. What other team who supposedly thinks of multiple championships, RH's words, operates like this? No one. The White Sox settle and hope. It's their SOP. We were told at the beginning of the rebuild things would be different. It's back to the future. Hope 2 or 3 rookies come up big. Hope 6 or 7 guys stay healthy and bounce back after losing your best player who actually stays on the field....They don't have to have a $250 million payroll to act like a contender. I hope Sosa is better than any 2B they could have signed or traded for. I hope Colas is the best RF in the AL, but will that be in 2023? Almost assuredly not. Maybe that will make them better in 2024 when there will be even more question marks. Gio will be gone. Lynn will probably be gone. If Clevinger is good in 2023, he will be gone, and it's not like the Sox will go on a spending spree to replace them. 

[bmags]

11 hours ago, Eminor3rd said:

I made a post a few weeks back about why I didn’t understand what the Blue Jays were doing, having traded most of their OF away before suddenly aggressively trading FOR OFers, but then several posters pointed out that they actually got a whole lot better, at least potentially, in the process because in shuffling those pieces around, they improved the defense drastically while also rebalancing  the handedness in their lineup.

That’s the type of front office work that makes it hard to accept what the Sox have done at catcher. You’ve done your best to steelman what Hahn has done, but unfortunately the argument comes down (as it so often does) to “well if these guys just stay healthy and play up to their potential, it’ll be alright,” which just doesn’t cut it when you’re talking about guys that are over 30 and (in this case) piling up chronic injuries.

I mean, I was equally confused with the Murphy trade talk because, before we learned about Grandal’s health situation, it seemed like there were positions that should have been higher priorities. In retrospect, it made a ton of sense to be aggressive there and, once again, they just didn’t get it done. And, man, we can come with excuses about why it was hard or maybe not even possible in this instance, but at the end of the day, this is a remarkably consistent pattern of results that becomes more glaringly unacceptable when you watch another team pull off something similar in the same timeframe. 

 

28 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Thats just because you have accepted the White Sox way. What other team who supposedly thinks of multiple championships, RH's words, operates like this? No one. The White Sox settle and hope. It's their SOP. We were told at the beginning of the rebuild things would be different. It's back to the future. Hope 2 or 3 rookies come up big. Hope 6 or 7 guys stay healthy and bounce back after losing your best player who actually stays on the field....They don't have to have a $250 million payroll to act like a contender. I hope Sosa is better than any 2B they could have signed or traded for. I hope Colas is the best RF in the AL, but will that be in 2023? Almost assuredly not. Maybe that will make them better in 2024 when there will be even more question marks. Gio will be gone. Lynn will probably be gone. If Clevinger is good in 2023, he will be gone, and it's not like the Sox will go on a spending spree to replace them. 

I love these two posts.

@Dick Allen is spot on laying out how first how they are refusing to finish the job after initiating a multi-year rebuild. And second how Reinsdorf teams tend to successfully create the image they operated with their very difficult constraints. A classic was paxson, who limited himself in team building strictly thru draft and adding free agents with salary cap space and was constantly saying well who else could we have gotten with those very specific routes?

And then you pair that with @Eminor3rdsummarizing the Jays offseason in which they were unsatisfied with their first round exits after years long rebuilds, saw their right handedness and poor defense as a culprit and did a huge renovation of their outfield and added pitching. The $$ added is less, though obviously prospect capital out was much more.

The Sox did also address their handedness and defense, going from a LF that was very below avg to avg and improving on a bizarrely bad year from AJ pollock.

The blue jays took a bad defense and made it one of the best in the league. They added one of the best starters available and added pitching depth.

 

 

[TheFutureIsNear]

1 hour ago, Dick Allen said:

Thats just because you have accepted the White Sox way. What other team who supposedly thinks of multiple championships, RH's words, operates like this? No one. The White Sox settle and hope. It's their SOP. We were told at the beginning of the rebuild things would be different. It's back to the future. Hope 2 or 3 rookies come up big. Hope 6 or 7 guys stay healthy and bounce back after losing your best player who actually stays on the field....They don't have to have a $250 million payroll to act like a contender. I hope Sosa is better than any 2B they could have signed or traded for. I hope Colas is the best RF in the AL, but will that be in 2023? Almost assuredly not. Maybe that will make them better in 2024 when there will be even more question marks. Gio will be gone. Lynn will probably be gone. If Clevinger is good in 2023, he will be gone, and it's not like the Sox will go on a spending spree to replace them. 

Again, aside from guys like Nimmo, Turner and Carlos…who would you have signed and or traded for? 
 

And isn’t saying that I “accept the White Sox way” just another way of saying that I accept reality? What do you think I/you can do about it? Do you go outside and b**** about the cold every single day, or have you accepted it and try to make the best of it? Personally I’m the latter, I’m not going to go into every thread bitching about how bad ownership is. We all know it. 

[Dick Allen]

37 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

Again, aside from guys like Nimmo, Turner and Carlos…who would you have signed and or traded for? 
 

And isn’t saying that I “accept the White Sox way” just another way of saying that I accept reality? What do you think I/you can do about it? Do you go outside and b**** about the cold every single day, or have you accepted it and try to make the best of it? Personally I’m the latter, I’m not going to go into every thread bitching about how bad ownership is. We all know it. 

i b**** about it because it is wrong and it is not what was promised. Other than signing x, y, or z, you say, well, your highest salaried player just left, how about signing one of those guys? How about getting someone last year when you needed left handed hitting? How about Harper? How about Machado? Remember when year 8 of Machado's deal was going to be a problem? Guess what, they backload Benintendi so during that year 8, he is paid at his highest rate. How about all of the interesting trade ideas RH menttioned? Nope, roll back the clock to 2013-2017 and hope if the  odds are defied and everything goes right, the White Sox will be really great.

I am a fan which is short for fanatic. Sorry if I would like to see some life come out of this front office instead of just accepting it. Once I accept it, I will move on to other things. They can be better. I am asking that they be better. If you looked at my history, I have not been a long time basher. In fact, many times I have stuck up for JR. But this is a new level. 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Dick Allen

[Chicago White Sox]

Go get Kemp & Duvall, sign a couple pitchers to minor league deals, and call it a day.  Would this be a great off-season?  Not at all, but it would probably be about as good as we could have expected assuming payroll has to be kept flat and if Hahn refuses to tap deeply into the minor league system.

Lineup: 1) Anderson, SS | 2) Benintendi, LF* | 3) Robert, CF | 4) Jimenez, DH | Moncada, 3B# | 6) Vaughn, 1B | 7) Grandal, C# | 8) Colas, RF* | 9) Kemp, 2B*

Bench: IF) Gonzalez | OF) Duvall | UT) Garcia# | BC) Zavala

Rotation: 1) Cease | 2) Lynn | 3) Giolito | 4) Kopech | 5) Clevinger

Bullpen: CL) Hendriks | SU) Graveman | SU) Bummer* | SU) Lopez | MR) Kelly | MR) Diekman* | MR) Ruiz | LR) Lambert

Depth: IF) Sosa | IF) Sanchez | IF) Gonzalez | 3B/1B) Burger | OF) Reyes | OF) Hamilton | OF) Cespedes | 1B/DH) Sheets* | C) Perez | SP) Davis | SP) FA #1 | SP) FA #2 | SP ) Burke | SP) Bilous | RP) Crochet* | RP) Santos | RP) Foster | RP) Stiever | RP) Padilla | RP) Banks* | RP) Sousa*

Edited January 4, 2023 by Chicago White Sox

[hogan873]

Hahn's comment yesterday that they don't see the team as complete leads me to believe they are still looking to add, hopefully at 2B.  The options out there aren't great, unless they pull off a surprising trade.  However, I'd rather them go into the season with a more sure option rather than relying on Sosa or Gonzalez being able to perform out the gate.

[Squirmin' for Yermin]

50 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

Go get Kemp & Duvall, sign a couple pitchers to minor league deals, and call it a day.  Would this be a great off-season?  Not at all, but it would probably be about as good as we could have expected assuming payroll has to be kept flat and if Hahn refuses to tap deeply into the minor league system.

Lineup: 1) Anderson, SS | 2) Benintendi, LF* | 3) Robert, CF | 4) Jimenez, DH | Moncada, 3B# | 6) Vaughn, 1B | 7) Grandal, C# | 8) Colas, RF* | 9) Kemp, 2B*

Bench: IF) Gonzalez | OF) Duvall | UT) Garcia# | BC) Zavala

Rotation: 1) Cease | 2) Lynn | 3) Giolito | 4) Kopech | 5) Clevinger

Bullpen: CL) Hendriks | SU) Graveman | SU) Bummer* | SU) Lopez | MR) Kelly | MR) Diekman* | MR) Ruiz | LR) Lambert

Depth: IF) Sosa | IF) Sanchez | IF) Gonzalez | 3B/1B) Burger | OF) Reyes | OF) Hamilton | OF) Cespedes | 1B/DH) Sheets* | C) Perez | SP) Davis | SP) FA #1 | SP) FA #2 | SP ) Burke | SP) Bilous | RP) Crochet* | RP) Santos | RP) Foster | RP) Stiever | RP) Padilla | RP) Banks* | RP) Sousa*

Anyone saying that's not a good team is trash. I'd also argue that would be a strong offseason (knowing we never play with the big boys)

Edited January 4, 2023 by Squirmin' for Yermin

[bmags]

28 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

Hahn's comment yesterday that they don't see the team as complete leads me to believe they are still looking to add, hopefully at 2B.  The options out there aren't great, unless they pull off a surprising trade.  However, I'd rather them go into the season with a more sure option rather than relying on Sosa or Gonzalez being able to perform out the gate.

I’d still, if I was Hahn, go after Gleybar hard. 

[ChiSox59]

13 hours ago, Tony said:

I thought I explained it pretty clearly, but I’ll try one more time, and keep it simpler. 
 

No one is surprised by the moves they made this offseason. It’s what the White Sox do. 
 

We shouldn’t accept it being OK. 

Like I said, light those pitchforks.  Certainly will make all the difference in the world. 

[Balta1701]

13 minutes ago, bmags said:

I’d still, if I was Hahn, go after Gleybar hard. 

What does this mean? Adding in extra players that they weren’t willing to. I’ve earlier this offseason to get him? Such as?

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

And isn’t saying that I “accept the White Sox way” just another way of saying that I accept reality? What do you think I/you can do about it? Do you go outside and b**** about the cold every single day, or have you accepted it and try to make the best of it? Personally I’m the latter, I’m not going to go into every thread bitching about how bad ownership is. We all know it. 

This x1000.

The Sox are clearly an imperfect organization.  No one is forcing us to be fans.  

I've said multiple times even in this very conversation that I am not pleased with the Sox offseason, and I wish they'd have done more.  But until JR sells the team, it is what it is.  And it could be much worse - the Sox will have the highest or 2nd highest payroll in franchise history and will have somewhere between the 5-8th highest payroll in the game.  We all agree that money could have been spent wiser, but here we are.  I just fail to understand what continuously bitching about it will do. 

You can point to the "contend for multiple championships" lingo, but things have clearly changed since that was stated and the one thing that matters most - JR - has not. 

[Balta1701]

1 hour ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

Again, aside from guys like Nimmo, Turner and Carlos…who would you have signed and or traded for? 
 

And isn’t saying that I “accept the White Sox way” just another way of saying that I accept reality? What do you think I/you can do about it? Do you go outside and b**** about the cold every single day, or have you accepted it and try to make the best of it? Personally I’m the latter, I’m not going to go into every thread bitching about how bad ownership is. We all know it. 

Just as an example, Sean Murphy was a guy the white Sox wanted who was available who was even extended with a Hahn style contract. His price in the trade turned out very affordable, but the As wanted big league ready pitching. Because of drafting, signing, and development choices, the White sox have zero of this to offer.

[ChiSox59]

1 hour ago, hogan873 said:

Hahn's comment yesterday that they don't see the team as complete leads me to believe they are still looking to add, hopefully at 2B.  The options out there aren't great, unless they pull off a surprising trade.  However, I'd rather them go into the season with a more sure option rather than relying on Sosa or Gonzalez being able to perform out the gate.

Do you have a link? Edit: found what I was looking for ??

Edited January 4, 2023 by ChiSox59

[bmags]

44 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

What does this mean? Adding in extra players that they weren’t willing to. I’ve earlier this offseason to get him? Such as?

Did you write this nonsense post and start it off with “what does this mean?”

[Dick Allen]

54 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

This x1000.

The Sox are clearly an imperfect organization.  No one is forcing us to be fans.  

I've said multiple times even in this very conversation that I am not pleased with the Sox offseason, and I wish they'd have done more.  But until JR sells the team, it is what it is.  And it could be much worse - the Sox will have the highest or 2nd highest payroll in franchise history and will have somewhere between the 5-8th highest payroll in the game.  We all agree that money could have been spent wiser, but here we are.  I just fail to understand what continuously bitching about it will do. 

You can point to the "contend for multiple championships" lingo, but things have clearly changed since that was stated and the one thing that matters most - JR - has not. 

What I don't get is when it's said there is nothing I or anyone here can do about it, that's true, so if we are just supposed to accept reality as it was phrased, what is the purpose of this board? Don't complain, there is nothing you can do. I'm not one that complains about every move. I think Benin10d was probably the safest choice on the next tier of FA. Clevinger will probably be at least as good as Cueto in 2023, maybe not what Cueto was in 2022. I like the manager. but the roster is the same BS they sell us all the time. Why not try to dominate? Why is that a bad thing?