They won’t sell. They’ll cling on to the fact they are only with say 7 games from the division leader at the trade deadline.

19 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

They won’t sell. They’ll cling on to the fact they are only with say 7 games from the division leader at the trade deadline.

Moncada  can field and can't hit for power anymore. Anderson can't hit and field anymore. I don't see how these 2 can be traded. I can't believe any other team would want them.  The White Sox would get next to nothing for them in a trade. So I'm assuming they won't be traded. Burger should be the every day 3rd baseman now.

Edited June 1, 20232 yr by WBWSF

19 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

They won’t sell. They’ll cling on to the fact they are only with say 7 games from the division leader at the trade deadline.

7 games back and 15 under .500 is possible.

39-34

81-81

23-35

143-150

 

So since the All Star break in 2021, almost 2 full seasons, the Sox are 7 under, including being mediocre at best for all or parts of 3 straight seasons. What Hahn is clinging to, doesn't exist. It's a bad team. Think what their record would be if they didn't get to play the AL Central so much.

Edited June 1, 20232 yr by Dick Allen

1 hour ago, Tnetennba said:

They should sell, right as soon as Hahn is fired.  But I don’t believe either is happening anytime soon. 

This is where I am. The franchise, I think, will be better served by doubling down and failing even harder, so as to increase the chances that it becomes untenable to retain current leadership. We shouldn’t want this group to have any involvement in the next window whatsoever. Unfortunately that may mean digging a deeper and sadder hole that we’ll all have to experience again. 

3 minutes ago, Eminor3rd said:

This is where I am. The franchise, I think, will be better served by doubling down and failing even harder, so as to increase the chances that it becomes untenable to retain current leadership. We shouldn’t want this group to have any involvement in the next window whatsoever. Unfortunately that may mean digging a deeper and sadder hole that we’ll all have to experience again. 

The funny thing is Hahn did a much better job trading his better players for prospects than most GMs do. Look at the crap the Tigers got for Verlander. If he did average on the Sale, Q and Eaton trades, this team would be now on over a decade since playing a meaningful game. They don't have that type of currency anymore. Common sense would lead anyone to believe RH and KW have to go, now.

I just went back and and looked. The Sox were 19-12 their last 31 before the AS break in 2021. That makes them an even 162-162 the last 2 years. Mired in mediocrity. 

Edited June 1, 20232 yr by Dick Allen

28 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

The funny thing is Hahn did a much better job trading his better players for prospects than most GMs do. Look at the crap the Tigers got for Verlander. If he did average on the Sale, Q and Eaton trades, this team would be now on over a decade since playing a meaningful game. They don't have that type of currency anymore. Common sense would lead anyone to believe RH and KW have to go, now.

I'm not trying to pick on you Dick, and in fact I've liked a lot of your posts this  year but that's apples and oranges. Chris Sale, Eaton and Q were all on surplus value deals exceeding 30-40 million. Verlander might have been around 10 million at best when he was dealt. Looking at his contract history more closely, at the time, Verlander probably had neutral value.

46 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

7 games back and 15 under .500 is possible.

What’s the worst they have to be for them to consider selling? Maybe 10+ around deadline?

Just now, Bob Sacamano said:

What’s the worst they have to be for them to consider selling? Maybe 10+ around deadline?

Trying to predict anything this stupid FO will do is a fool's errand. For all we know they probably would consider that contention and will trade for another couple relievers via Colson.

14 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I'm not trying to pick on you Dick, and in fact I've liked a lot of your posts this  year but that's apples and oranges. Chris Sale, Eaton and Q were all on surplus value deals exceeding 30-40 million. Verlander might have been around 10 million at best when he was dealt. Looking at his contract history more closely, at the time, Verlander probably had neutral value.

They have Cease, and a bunch of crap to trade. Maybe Robert. You would have to think Robert on a rebuilding team would make Claudell Washington 's playing style look like Pete Rose. They both have some warts. They can't draft at all. So if they decided to rebuild again, and didn't get rid of Hahn and KW and Chris Getz, there is almost a zero chance JR at 87 years old, would ever see the White Sox end a season above .500 again.

Edited June 1, 20232 yr by Dick Allen

1 hour ago, baseballgalaly said:

I don't even think they could sell if they wanted to. There's no reason to sell anyone that isn't on a 1 year deal because they're all having shitty years. 

Exactly. Selling low will not net them much and they don't have anything coming up in the minors. They may as well go with what they have and keep their fingers crossed. Either get hot enough as a group to get back in it or individuals get hot enough to entice some teams into surrendering some young talent. Selling off on 6/1 will clearly be seen as desperation. Teams are not shopping now but will steal from you if you let them. Wait for teams needing additions to come calling. They will.

6 minutes ago, soxrwhite said:

Exactly. Selling low will not net them much and they don't have anything coming up in the minors. They may as well go with what they have and keep their fingers crossed. Either get hot enough as a group to get back in it or individuals get hot enough to entice some teams into surrendering some young talent. Selling off on 6/1 will clearly be seen as desperation. Teams are not shopping now but will steal from you if you let them. Wait for teams needing additions to come calling. They will.

With the later deadline it helps sellers, so yea, no reason to trade now. Wait until late July and hope a dozen teams in each league think they are in contention.

At a minimum, if they throw in the towel you have to see what you can get for these guys as they are goners anyways.

Position Players: Grandal

Pitchers: Giolito, Lynn, Kelly, Clevinger, Lopez, Middleton

I would also see what you can get for Graveman and Santos as well.

Man we are losing a lot of pitchers going into next year, with no depth and no money how the hell are they going to field a full staff of competent pitchers. This is going to be one helluva off-season.

43 minutes ago, chitownsportsfan said:

I'm not trying to pick on you Dick, and in fact I've liked a lot of your posts this  year but that's apples and oranges. Chris Sale, Eaton and Q were all on surplus value deals exceeding 30-40 million. Verlander might have been around 10 million at best when he was dealt. Looking at his contract history more closely, at the time, Verlander probably had neutral value.

Not to defend Hahn, but who signed them to those deals, thus maximizing trade valuation?

He's fallen completely flat on his face in the "win now" mode, but he did do some good things before.

30 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

They have Cease, and a bunch of crap to trade. Maybe Robert. You would have to think Robert on a rebuilding team would make Claudell Washington 's playing style look like Pete Rose. They both have some warts. They can't draft at all. So if they decided to rebuild again, and didn't get rid of Hahn and KW and Chris Getz, there is almost a zero chance JR at 87 years old, would ever see the White Sox end a season above .500 again.

Dylan Cease should not be a guy the White Sox trade this season given his current performance, as no one will give up what it should take to get him - multiple top 100-ish prospects. Let's look at why.

Dylan Cease's FIP this year is 4.4, his expected ERA based on stat cast is 4.63, his 4.88 ERA isn't out of line with that. His K-rate/9 of 9.77 is well down from the 11.1 last year and the 12.28 in 2021. His walk rate is his worst since 2020. The average exit velocity he has given up is the worst of his career.

His fastball is down a full 1 mph from last year. Furthermore, last year his fastball started poorly but improved a lot by May, this year May was not obviously better than April. 

Right now, the White Sox would ask for a very high price for Dylan Cease, and anyone asking about him would expect to get him at a massive discount because not only is his ERA bad but the underlying numbers also suggest that he's not a very good pitcher. This could of course change if he were to pick up his velocity and find a groove over the next 2 months, but right now, Dylan Cease will not return anything of substantial value because he's not a particularly strong pitcher. 

If he doesn't find a groove very soon, then holding onto him through 2024's trade deadline and hoping for better results with a different pitching coach seems like the appropriate strategy. 

If Cease does find a groove, then the White Sox will win a couple more games and that will be all Hahn needs to justify that "If we keep playing like this we'll be right there at the end" (Rick Hahn, 2015). 

18 minutes ago, T R U said:

At a minimum, if they throw in the towel you have to see what you can get for these guys as they are goners anyways.

Position Players: Grandal

Pitchers: Giolito, Lynn, Kelly, Clevinger, Lopez, Middleton

I would also see what you can get for Graveman and Santos as well.

Man we are losing a lot of pitchers going into next year, with no depth and no money how the hell are they going to field a full staff of competent pitchers. This is going to be one helluva off-season.

Hopefully that off-season is without Rick Hahn around! 

3 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

 

Right now, the White Sox would ask for a very high price for Dylan Cease, and anyone asking about him would expect to get him at a massive discount because not only is his ERA bad but the underlying numbers also suggest that he's not a very good pitcher. This could of course change if he were to pick up his velocity and find a groove over the next 2 months, but right now, Dylan Cease will not return anything of substantial value because he's not a particularly strong pitcher. 

 

San Diego seems like they'd overpay, but I'm not sure I trust Hahn trading with them in a deal involving pitchers and prospects.

18 minutes ago, JoeC said:

Not to defend Hahn, but who signed them to those deals, thus maximizing trade valuation?

He's fallen completely flat on his face in the "win now" mode, but he did do some good things before.

The thing is, those types of team friendly deals are a thing of the past. Now you get the Eloy, Moncada, Robert type deals. Those don't create a lot of surplus unless the guy is a perennial all star performer. 

20 minutes ago, JoeC said:

Not to defend Hahn, but who signed them to those deals, thus maximizing trade valuation?

He's fallen completely flat on his face in the "win now" mode, but he did do some good things before.

He was out in front of that trend. Unfortunately he was over promoted into a GM when in reality he was only good at contracts.

Hahn also brings up playing better in May. They were 15-14,. Pretty mediocre. And have to do a lot better than that just to sniff .500 overall.

at best all the pieces to deal aren't giving immediate returns and more likely a handful of lotto tickets, I'm afraid the 2nd nuclear winter in 20 years of White Sox baseball is now the only possible outcome for the rest of the '20s, nothing left to do but sit back, relax, and strap her down. 

2 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

7 games back and 15 under .500 is possible.

I peg them at 29 under .500 (39-68) on July 30.

• 1-2 vs. Detroit (24-37)
• 1-2 at New York A. L. (25-39)
• 1-2 vs. Miami (26-41)
• 0-3 at Los Angeles N. L. (26-44)
• 1-2 at Seattle (27-46)
• 1-2 vs. Texas (28-48)
• 1-2 vs. Boston (29-50)
• 1-3 at Los Angeles A. L. (30-53)
• 2-1 at Oakland (32-54)
• 1-2 vs. Toronto (33-56)
• 1-2 vs. Saint Louis (34-58)
• 0-3 at Atlanta (34-61)
• 1-2 at New York N. L. (35-63)
• 1-2 at Minnesota (36-65)
• 1-1 vs. Chicago N. L. (37-66)
• 2-2 vs. Cleveland (39-68)

Don’t get me wrong, it needs to happen…but whatever we have to sell isn’t going to turn this franchise around. Cease is about the only guy I can see netting us any kind of significant prospect. Sadly the only turn around for the Sox is probably tank mode for 3-4 years at least. It’s not like they can clear the cap and then sign big free agents, we all know that isn’t happening until Jerry is gone. 
 

Plus, just the idea of Hahn starting another rebuild is crazy. Trade whoever you can that isn’t under contract next year and then let a new front office (KW must go too) make the decisions on the rest in the off-season. 

21 minutes ago, Dick Allen said:

Hahn also brings up playing better in May. They were 15-14,. Pretty mediocre. And have to do a lot better than that just to sniff .500 overall.

May should've been a relatively easy schedule. No excuse not going 18-11 minimum. Dropping 3 of 4 vs KC and 3 of 4 vs Detroit really killed it. Not to mention playing to lose on the last game against Minnesota when they could've swept them.