Jump to content

Colas


Recommended Posts

26 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Oh, everybody else should talk. The goalposts have more miles on them than my car from "name people we developed!!" "No, they don't count, because they had talent!!!"

Then why were you screaming about no one being able to give you even one name, only to disqualify the entire list when someone did? By your own standards that would be "a dishonest argument".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

Counting anyone who just gets to the majors is a pretty low bar, which is how I'm reading his argument. 

And that's not what I'm saying. If a 28th rounder winds up being the utility infielder for most of a season, that's a win. If a first rounder gets one at-bat in the bigs before his DFA, it isn't. 

I'm sorry. Maybe my brain is broke, and I can't deal with people throwing statements that are fundamentally untrue at me, and pretending they shot down my argument. I should really learn to roll my eyes and move on. I haven't and probably won't. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Then why were you screaming about no one being able to give you even one name, only to disqualify the entire list when someone did? By your own standards that would be "a dishonest argument".

Having gone through this cycle numerous times, so many, that I can diagram out the path, I decided to bounce the onus back on CWS, for a change. I'm sorry you were so jolted by the rhetorical change of course. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Having gone through this cycle numerous times, so many, that I can diagram out the path, I decided to bounce the onus back on CWS, for a change. I'm sorry you were so jolted by the rhetorical change of course. 

Jolted by your hypocrisy more than anything.

  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

45 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

I have never "regaled you with the great qualities of Chris Getz". And one guy in the driver's seat is better than KW/Hahn. That is indisputable. Online sports discussion is such, that if somebody doesn't hear complete agreement with the echo chamber nonsense they spout off, they hear 'Chris Getz love' in their head, and then react to that. 

Yes, the losing and the lack of development is frustrating. I'll agree that Chris Getz was part of the organization during this period of failure, and most probably didn't push back, or put forth enough to derail the failure. Point conceded. 

When you say "there is literally nothing to point to", that is statement #1 in the cycle. I am not going to list out the obvious systemic wins for you, because you will then make up BS to prove that a guy the Sox developed doesn't count. I will then move on to pointing out late round draft picks who maxed out as ML utility men and bullpen arms, and you will pretend to laugh. That's the fallacy. Nobody the White Sox developed count, because reasons. And you're so dug in, you can't untrack yourself and say, "Okay, that is an organizational win." It has to be "zero". "Literally nothing." 

Be dissatisfied with Chris Getz. I fully support you in that endeavor. But when you state things that are demonstrably untrue, I'm not going to go all zombie-eyed, and agree with your BS. 

The Sox failed to develop Vaughn and Sheets as Outfielders, even though they had the great Daryl Boston coaching them. LOL, they stalled both players development and possibly their careers by calling them up before they were ready to play and then forcing them to play a position they never played before.  Only the Sox would try to try to let two 1B/DH's with absolutely no speed patrol the outfield.  Who in the Sox organization thought this was a good idea? Kenny, Rick, Chris, Tony should have all been in on the decision, however the real reason we never signed an outfielder or 2B is  Mr Reinsdorf who should take all the blame for hiring incompetent people to direct the White Sox.  It all starts at the top so we really should stop blaming everyone JR hired.

He could have signed a legitimate MLB Manager or GM however he chose to hire from within as he always does.Until JR goes or sells, discussions like these will continue to dominate Sox Talk when the real culprit is our owner.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

The Sox failed to develop Vaughn and Sheets as Outfielders, even though they had the great Daryl Boston coaching them. LOL, they stalled both players development and possibly their careers by calling them up before they were ready to play and then forcing them to play a position they never played before.  Only the Sox would try to try to let two 1B/DH's with absolutely no speed patrol the outfield.  Who in the Sox organization thought this was a good idea? Kenny, Rick, Chris, Tony should have all been in on the decision, however the real reason we never signed an outfielder or 2B is  Mr Reinsdorf who should take all the blame for hiring incompetent people to direct the White Sox.  It all starts at the top so we really should stop blaming everyone JR hired.

He could have signed a legitimate MLB Manager or GM however he chose to hire from within as he always does.Until JR goes or sells, discussions like these will continue to dominate Sox Talk when the real culprit is our owner.

To be fair here, Sheets worked on the OF himself when he was left out of the alternate site in 2020. He saw Abreu, Vaughn and Burger all blocking him at 1B and decided he needed to do something.

Now, after that, should they have diligently worked with him / worked with him prior / said "hey Gavin, this ain't it, let's focus on the bat?" 1000 times yes.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Polar Bear said:

Well then the calls for a new gm, new manager, new coaches, and new staff will grow loud af

As will the organizations tone deafness.  The drove off the greatest player in the history of basketball just to prove how awesome they all are.  They literally couldn't care less what we all think.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Quin said:

I'll keep posting this god damn list

 

Okay, I've taken out all the guys you concede were "wins". Here's the rest: (my comments in orange)

no, they aren't "failures"

Eloy Jimenez - Failure - Dumb injuries derailed career, sapped strength
Luis Gonzalez - Failure - tried to sneak him through waivers, did well for a month w/Giants
Nick Madrigal - Failure - rushed, traded, more bWAR than 3 guys drafted before him
Reynaldo Lopez - Failure. EDIT: As a starter - relievers are people, too
Michael Kopech - Failure - see Lopez, also, head-case
Micker Adolfo - Failure - Keith Law considers this a big org win. Injuries derailed him. Went from not knowing baseball to actual bat-first prospect. The main failure was rostering on 40-man too early, ran out of options. 
Jimmy Lambert - Failure - no he isn't. Late rounder found bullpen success

injured

Jonathan Stiever - Failure
Sean Burke - TBD, not looking good
Norge Vera - TBD, but so far, failure

rushed

Carson Fulmer - Failure - predates Getz
Oscar Colas - Pedro hates him - undeveloped, might just be a bonehead.

jury's out

Matthew Thompson - Failure
Jared Kelly - TBD, but so far, failure

yes, couldn't correct flaws

Zack Collins - Failure
Alec Hansen - Disastrous failure
Blake Rutherford - Failure
Yoelqui Cespedes - Failure

you kidding me?

Benyamin Bailey - Failure
Bryce Bush - Failure

the rest
Zack Burdi - Failure - sure. Maybe belongs under 'didn't correct flaws'
Spencer Adams - Failure - okay. AAAA pitcher, maybe?
Ian Clarkin - Failure - 2 other orgs couldn't, either, but, sure. 
Andrew Dalquist - Failure - starting to look like a reliever

Luis Basabe - Failure - see Clarkin, also, rostered too soon, ran out of options
DJ Gladney - Failure - actually, jury's still out. Looked good last year. Slow learner
James Beard - Failure - sure. maybe some guys just never adjust to pro ball. 
Carlos Perez - Failure at this point due to defense - I have no idea. Defense took with many others
Wes Kath - Failure - yes! high five me, dude!

So, there's my reaction to your list. I'd actually go further, wondering what happened to Lincoln Henzman, Tyler Johnson and Kade McClure from the 2017 draft. I think 2020 conked out a lot of the bubble guys. Also 2017, guys like Blake Battenfield and John Parke made it through the system, and their junk-ball stuff just didn't play at the higher levels. Bad drafting along with not maxing out the ground ball pitchers? 

In the 2018 draft, they actually got 10 guys from up and down the draft to the majors. But the big misses that year were guys like Luke Shilling, 100 mph guy who couldn't throw strikes, never learned then TJS. A lot of the guys who missed wound up with lengthy injuries. 

The 2019 draft was a disaster, and yeah, I wonder how Thompson, Dalquist and Beard all underwhelmed. Avery Weems, tho. And 2020 - Garret Crochet. Coffey, Kelly and Horn are still developing. 

I think Getz got the stars through at the beginning of his tenure, did a better job with the 2018 draft class, not sure if 2019 was just a draft-day disaster, and he was promoted in 2020. Not stellar, not the catastrophe everybody makes it out to be. 

Edited by WestEddy
  • Paper Bag 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said:

The Sox failed to develop Vaughn and Sheets as Outfielders, even though they had the great Daryl Boston coaching them. LOL, they stalled both players development and possibly their careers by calling them up before they were ready to play and then forcing them to play a position they never played before.  Only the Sox would try to try to let two 1B/DH's with absolutely no speed patrol the outfield.  Who in the Sox organization thought this was a good idea? Kenny, Rick, Chris, Tony should have all been in on the decision, however the real reason we never signed an outfielder or 2B is  Mr Reinsdorf who should take all the blame for hiring incompetent people to direct the White Sox.  It all starts at the top so we really should stop blaming everyone JR hired.

He could have signed a legitimate MLB Manager or GM however he chose to hire from within as he always does.Until JR goes or sells, discussions like these will continue to dominate Sox Talk when the real culprit is our owner.

I agree with all of this. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, WestEddy said:

You know, it really isn't hard to just concede a simple point. 

It's weird, you contend he had no say in the matter, zero power, but somehow was good at his job. That makes no sense. If you don't really think they asked Getz about players, what the f*** was he doing? Picking up calzones for JR?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

It's weird, you contend he had no say in the matter, zero power, but somehow was good at his job. That makes no sense. If you don't really think they asked Getz about players, what the f*** was he doing? Picking up calzones for JR?

Yes, he was probably part of the decision making process. "Do you think Andrew Vaughn could play OF to get at-bats?" "Sure, he's athletic. He could be adequate, in time." "Good, plug him into RF tomorrow!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, WestEddy said:

Yes, he was probably part of the decision making process. "Do you think Andrew Vaughn could play OF to get at-bats?" "Sure, he's athletic. He could be adequate, in time." "Good, plug him into RF tomorrow!"

You're making things up.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Polar Bear said:

So only 3 more times he can come up, that can't be right can it?

 

If so, why the f use one knowing he wasn't going to play 

I mean three is more than enough. He's not an AAAA pitcher at the end of the bullpen. If he's coming up, he's coming up. The limit of 5 call-ups has no meaning here.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, KipWellsFan said:

I thought this was a discussion about Colas?

P.S. Did he actually get optioned? Or bad reporting?

He got optioned.  Its listed on Sox website under transactions.  

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

He got optioned.  Its listed on Sox website under transactions.  

So when's the next Colas Call-up going to be?

My guess is before 5/15.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel like the Getz thing is somewhere in the middle... and also kind of unknowable. 

If you made a list of any organization's prospects, there are going to be a ton of "failures."  That's just how it works across the league.  Did the Sox produce less major league talent than the rest of the MLB during that time?  I don't know but I'm guessing they probably did.  

Ok... how much of that is Getz's fault?  I'm not sure.  He was the farm director but who knows what type of decision-making power he had.  When he tried to implement something, was he overruled?  Everyone seems to understand that JR, KW, and TLR got their way when it came to Hahn's authority.  Am I to believe that JR, KW, TLR, and Hahn all gave Getz complete control and approved every suggestion?  Seems unlikely.  

Furthermore, even if Getz had more power and influence than we think he did, he still wasn't the one picking the players.  I'm not going to pretend I know enough about amateur baseball to know which failures are attributable to him and which failures are on the player, GM, scouting dept, etc.  I bet most people here share my ignorance. 

The people who are the loudest in attacking Getz's resume are all fans on the outside and AJ Pierzynski... and one episode of his podcast, AJ seemed confused and implying Getz was in charge of drafts... which was obviously not the case.  Other than that, it seems like a lot of the analysts and people connected to mlb have more respect for him than your typical SoxTalk poster or commenter under SoxMachine tweet.  

Where I think WestEddy is right is that there are a number of people who are just salty and ignoring actual successes on his resume.  You can say he didn't deserve the job and still acknowledge they produced some major league talent when he was around.  I think its unfair and kind of tiring to say he deserves all the blame for the failures but no recognition for Robert or depth pieces while trashing him for something relatively insignificant like sending Colas back down. 

Again... a lot of hyperventilating happening and I think its just residual anger from 2022-23.

  • Like 2
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...