southsider2k5 Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 24 minutes ago, Polar Bear said: So only 3 more times he can come up, that can't be right can it? If so, why the f use one knowing he wasn't going to play Because they don't care and/or aren't calling him up again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 26 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Oh, everybody else should talk. The goalposts have more miles on them than my car from "name people we developed!!" "No, they don't count, because they had talent!!!" Then why were you screaming about no one being able to give you even one name, only to disqualify the entire list when someone did? By your own standards that would be "a dishonest argument". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 15 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said: Counting anyone who just gets to the majors is a pretty low bar, which is how I'm reading his argument. And that's not what I'm saying. If a 28th rounder winds up being the utility infielder for most of a season, that's a win. If a first rounder gets one at-bat in the bigs before his DFA, it isn't. I'm sorry. Maybe my brain is broke, and I can't deal with people throwing statements that are fundamentally untrue at me, and pretending they shot down my argument. I should really learn to roll my eyes and move on. I haven't and probably won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 21 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Then why were you screaming about no one being able to give you even one name, only to disqualify the entire list when someone did? By your own standards that would be "a dishonest argument". Having gone through this cycle numerous times, so many, that I can diagram out the path, I decided to bounce the onus back on CWS, for a change. I'm sorry you were so jolted by the rhetorical change of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 7 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Having gone through this cycle numerous times, so many, that I can diagram out the path, I decided to bounce the onus back on CWS, for a change. I'm sorry you were so jolted by the rhetorical change of course. Jolted by your hypocrisy more than anything. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Train to 35th Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 45 minutes ago, WestEddy said: I have never "regaled you with the great qualities of Chris Getz". And one guy in the driver's seat is better than KW/Hahn. That is indisputable. Online sports discussion is such, that if somebody doesn't hear complete agreement with the echo chamber nonsense they spout off, they hear 'Chris Getz love' in their head, and then react to that. Yes, the losing and the lack of development is frustrating. I'll agree that Chris Getz was part of the organization during this period of failure, and most probably didn't push back, or put forth enough to derail the failure. Point conceded. When you say "there is literally nothing to point to", that is statement #1 in the cycle. I am not going to list out the obvious systemic wins for you, because you will then make up BS to prove that a guy the Sox developed doesn't count. I will then move on to pointing out late round draft picks who maxed out as ML utility men and bullpen arms, and you will pretend to laugh. That's the fallacy. Nobody the White Sox developed count, because reasons. And you're so dug in, you can't untrack yourself and say, "Okay, that is an organizational win." It has to be "zero". "Literally nothing." Be dissatisfied with Chris Getz. I fully support you in that endeavor. But when you state things that are demonstrably untrue, I'm not going to go all zombie-eyed, and agree with your BS. The Sox failed to develop Vaughn and Sheets as Outfielders, even though they had the great Daryl Boston coaching them. LOL, they stalled both players development and possibly their careers by calling them up before they were ready to play and then forcing them to play a position they never played before. Only the Sox would try to try to let two 1B/DH's with absolutely no speed patrol the outfield. Who in the Sox organization thought this was a good idea? Kenny, Rick, Chris, Tony should have all been in on the decision, however the real reason we never signed an outfielder or 2B is Mr Reinsdorf who should take all the blame for hiring incompetent people to direct the White Sox. It all starts at the top so we really should stop blaming everyone JR hired. He could have signed a legitimate MLB Manager or GM however he chose to hire from within as he always does.Until JR goes or sells, discussions like these will continue to dominate Sox Talk when the real culprit is our owner. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polar Bear Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 58 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Because they don't care and/or aren't calling him up again. Well then the calls for a new gm, new manager, new coaches, and new staff will grow loud af Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 9 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said: The Sox failed to develop Vaughn and Sheets as Outfielders, even though they had the great Daryl Boston coaching them. LOL, they stalled both players development and possibly their careers by calling them up before they were ready to play and then forcing them to play a position they never played before. Only the Sox would try to try to let two 1B/DH's with absolutely no speed patrol the outfield. Who in the Sox organization thought this was a good idea? Kenny, Rick, Chris, Tony should have all been in on the decision, however the real reason we never signed an outfielder or 2B is Mr Reinsdorf who should take all the blame for hiring incompetent people to direct the White Sox. It all starts at the top so we really should stop blaming everyone JR hired. He could have signed a legitimate MLB Manager or GM however he chose to hire from within as he always does.Until JR goes or sells, discussions like these will continue to dominate Sox Talk when the real culprit is our owner. To be fair here, Sheets worked on the OF himself when he was left out of the alternate site in 2020. He saw Abreu, Vaughn and Burger all blocking him at 1B and decided he needed to do something. Now, after that, should they have diligently worked with him / worked with him prior / said "hey Gavin, this ain't it, let's focus on the bat?" 1000 times yes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 4 minutes ago, Polar Bear said: Well then the calls for a new gm, new manager, new coaches, and new staff will grow loud af As will the organizations tone deafness. The drove off the greatest player in the history of basketball just to prove how awesome they all are. They literally couldn't care less what we all think. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 (edited) 3 hours ago, Quin said: I'll keep posting this god damn list Okay, I've taken out all the guys you concede were "wins". Here's the rest: (my comments in orange) no, they aren't "failures" Eloy Jimenez - Failure - Dumb injuries derailed career, sapped strength Luis Gonzalez - Failure - tried to sneak him through waivers, did well for a month w/Giants Nick Madrigal - Failure - rushed, traded, more bWAR than 3 guys drafted before him Reynaldo Lopez - Failure. EDIT: As a starter - relievers are people, too Michael Kopech - Failure - see Lopez, also, head-case Micker Adolfo - Failure - Keith Law considers this a big org win. Injuries derailed him. Went from not knowing baseball to actual bat-first prospect. The main failure was rostering on 40-man too early, ran out of options. Jimmy Lambert - Failure - no he isn't. Late rounder found bullpen success injured Jonathan Stiever - Failure Sean Burke - TBD, not looking good Norge Vera - TBD, but so far, failure rushed Carson Fulmer - Failure - predates Getz Oscar Colas - Pedro hates him - undeveloped, might just be a bonehead. jury's out Matthew Thompson - Failure Jared Kelly - TBD, but so far, failure yes, couldn't correct flaws Zack Collins - Failure Alec Hansen - Disastrous failure Blake Rutherford - Failure Yoelqui Cespedes - Failure you kidding me? Benyamin Bailey - Failure Bryce Bush - Failure the rest Zack Burdi - Failure - sure. Maybe belongs under 'didn't correct flaws' Spencer Adams - Failure - okay. AAAA pitcher, maybe? Ian Clarkin - Failure - 2 other orgs couldn't, either, but, sure. Andrew Dalquist - Failure - starting to look like a reliever Luis Basabe - Failure - see Clarkin, also, rostered too soon, ran out of options DJ Gladney - Failure - actually, jury's still out. Looked good last year. Slow learner James Beard - Failure - sure. maybe some guys just never adjust to pro ball. Carlos Perez - Failure at this point due to defense - I have no idea. Defense took with many others Wes Kath - Failure - yes! high five me, dude! So, there's my reaction to your list. I'd actually go further, wondering what happened to Lincoln Henzman, Tyler Johnson and Kade McClure from the 2017 draft. I think 2020 conked out a lot of the bubble guys. Also 2017, guys like Blake Battenfield and John Parke made it through the system, and their junk-ball stuff just didn't play at the higher levels. Bad drafting along with not maxing out the ground ball pitchers? In the 2018 draft, they actually got 10 guys from up and down the draft to the majors. But the big misses that year were guys like Luke Shilling, 100 mph guy who couldn't throw strikes, never learned then TJS. A lot of the guys who missed wound up with lengthy injuries. The 2019 draft was a disaster, and yeah, I wonder how Thompson, Dalquist and Beard all underwhelmed. Avery Weems, tho. And 2020 - Garret Crochet. Coffey, Kelly and Horn are still developing. I think Getz got the stars through at the beginning of his tenure, did a better job with the 2018 draft class, not sure if 2019 was just a draft-day disaster, and he was promoted in 2020. Not stellar, not the catastrophe everybody makes it out to be. Edited April 12 by WestEddy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 23 minutes ago, A-Train to 35th said: The Sox failed to develop Vaughn and Sheets as Outfielders, even though they had the great Daryl Boston coaching them. LOL, they stalled both players development and possibly their careers by calling them up before they were ready to play and then forcing them to play a position they never played before. Only the Sox would try to try to let two 1B/DH's with absolutely no speed patrol the outfield. Who in the Sox organization thought this was a good idea? Kenny, Rick, Chris, Tony should have all been in on the decision, however the real reason we never signed an outfielder or 2B is Mr Reinsdorf who should take all the blame for hiring incompetent people to direct the White Sox. It all starts at the top so we really should stop blaming everyone JR hired. He could have signed a legitimate MLB Manager or GM however he chose to hire from within as he always does.Until JR goes or sells, discussions like these will continue to dominate Sox Talk when the real culprit is our owner. I agree with all of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 38 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Jolted by your hypocrisy more than anything. That's rich. And funny. Let me when you have to start treatment from all the jolting you get on the internet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 4 minutes ago, WestEddy said: That's rich. And funny. Let me when you have to start treatment from all the jolting you get on the internet. Yet who finally responded in kind to the list... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 1 hour ago, WestEddy said: You know, it really isn't hard to just concede a simple point. It's weird, you contend he had no say in the matter, zero power, but somehow was good at his job. That makes no sense. If you don't really think they asked Getz about players, what the f*** was he doing? Picking up calzones for JR? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Yet who finally responded in kind to the list... I did. And that's somehow bad in naysayer world? You're welcome for the knowledge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 1 minute ago, Dick Allen said: It's weird, you contend he had no say in the matter, zero power, but somehow was good at his job. That makes no sense. If you don't really think they asked Getz about players, what the f*** was he doing? Picking up calzones for JR? Yes, he was probably part of the decision making process. "Do you think Andrew Vaughn could play OF to get at-bats?" "Sure, he's athletic. He could be adequate, in time." "Good, plug him into RF tomorrow!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 4 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Yes, he was probably part of the decision making process. "Do you think Andrew Vaughn could play OF to get at-bats?" "Sure, he's athletic. He could be adequate, in time." "Good, plug him into RF tomorrow!" You're making things up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buehrle>Wood Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 2 hours ago, Polar Bear said: So only 3 more times he can come up, that can't be right can it? If so, why the f use one knowing he wasn't going to play I mean three is more than enough. He's not an AAAA pitcher at the end of the bullpen. If he's coming up, he's coming up. The limit of 5 call-ups has no meaning here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KipWellsFan Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 I thought this was a discussion about Colas? P.S. Did he actually get optioned? Or bad reporting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 5 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: You're making things up. Obviously. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dohnut Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 1 minute ago, WestEddy said: Obviously. Who let this guy in here anyway... 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chitownsportsfan Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 11 minutes ago, dohnut said: Who let this guy in here anyway... Me seeing eddy and SS2K going to the mattresses in every thread: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 15 minutes ago, KipWellsFan said: I thought this was a discussion about Colas? P.S. Did he actually get optioned? Or bad reporting? He got optioned. Its listed on Sox website under transactions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 11 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: He got optioned. Its listed on Sox website under transactions. So when's the next Colas Call-up going to be? My guess is before 5/15. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nardiwashere Posted April 12 Share Posted April 12 I feel like the Getz thing is somewhere in the middle... and also kind of unknowable. If you made a list of any organization's prospects, there are going to be a ton of "failures." That's just how it works across the league. Did the Sox produce less major league talent than the rest of the MLB during that time? I don't know but I'm guessing they probably did. Ok... how much of that is Getz's fault? I'm not sure. He was the farm director but who knows what type of decision-making power he had. When he tried to implement something, was he overruled? Everyone seems to understand that JR, KW, and TLR got their way when it came to Hahn's authority. Am I to believe that JR, KW, TLR, and Hahn all gave Getz complete control and approved every suggestion? Seems unlikely. Furthermore, even if Getz had more power and influence than we think he did, he still wasn't the one picking the players. I'm not going to pretend I know enough about amateur baseball to know which failures are attributable to him and which failures are on the player, GM, scouting dept, etc. I bet most people here share my ignorance. The people who are the loudest in attacking Getz's resume are all fans on the outside and AJ Pierzynski... and one episode of his podcast, AJ seemed confused and implying Getz was in charge of drafts... which was obviously not the case. Other than that, it seems like a lot of the analysts and people connected to mlb have more respect for him than your typical SoxTalk poster or commenter under SoxMachine tweet. Where I think WestEddy is right is that there are a number of people who are just salty and ignoring actual successes on his resume. You can say he didn't deserve the job and still acknowledge they produced some major league talent when he was around. I think its unfair and kind of tiring to say he deserves all the blame for the failures but no recognition for Robert or depth pieces while trashing him for something relatively insignificant like sending Colas back down. Again... a lot of hyperventilating happening and I think its just residual anger from 2022-23. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.