WhiteSox2023 Posted October 29 Share Posted October 29 How are we even debating whether or not the Reinsdorf era is the darkest and most pathetic years for the team, outside of a single WS in 44 years? Jerry’s ownership is as much of a s%*# stain on this franchise as the Black Sox scandal. He chose money over a WS contender in 1994. The “White Flag” trade. He squandered some of the best offensive lineups in team history in the 90’s by not supplementing them with enough pitching. He is the owner of only one of two teams that has never given out a $100 million dollar contract. He has been a terrible owner and I couldn’t even fathom Ishbia or anyone else being worse. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WBWSF Posted October 29 Share Posted October 29 9 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said: How are we even debating whether or not the Reinsdorf era is the darkest and most pathetic years for the team, outside of a single WS in 44 years? Jerry’s ownership is as much of a s%*# stain on this franchise as the Black Sox scandal. He chose money over a WS contender in 1994. The “White Flag” trade. He squandered some of the best offensive lineups in team history in the 90’s by not supplementing them with enough pitching. He is the owner of only one of two teams that has never given out a $100 million dollar contract. He has been a terrible owner and I couldn’t even fathom Ishbia or anyone else being worse. JR also had a stadium built in a unpopular location and then built a stadium where nobody wants to sit in the upper deck. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted October 29 Share Posted October 29 11 hours ago, 77 Hitmen said: White Sox W-L records in the early 60s: 1960: 87-67 (equivalent to 91 wins in a 162-game schedule) 1961: 86-76 1962: 85-77 1963: 94-68 1964: 98-64 1965: 95-67 That doesn't look horribly run to me. If there were divisions back then, some of those teams almost certainly would have made the post-season. If we see a half-decade stretch like that any time soon, Sox fans will think we've died and gone to heaven. Just as a thought experiment a few years ago, I broke the years down from 51-67 into two A.L. divisions. Under that scenario the Sox would have made the playoffs six times. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southwest Sider Posted October 29 Share Posted October 29 A lot of dead horses to beat when it comes to JR and his tenure. A few for me that stand out the most are: -Not doing what it takes to bring in Miguel Cabrera. Everyone KNEW that that dude was a total stud. We didn't because we didn't want to take Dontrelle Willis? FFS you do what it takes to get one of the best hitters of all time on your team. Instead he went their direct rival the Tigers and tortured us for the rest of his career. -Not doing what it took to bring in Machado and/or Harper. "The money will be spent", but never was, and we watch them both have nice careers at bargain value contracts nowadays. It was time to add to that team but we didn't. It likely failed anyway but that's when I knew this would be the same old s%*#. Hahn was given the autonomy to try out a rebuild but could only pay top of market free agent contracts to relievers. -Not investing in a top notch Minor League system and scouts. At the very least if you're going to be a cheap asshole, invest in your minor leagues and make sure you get the most out of the young players you bring in. So we couldn't even be like Tampa Bay. -Shitting on the idea of signing Ohtani. Yes, of course he wasn't going to come here. But for f*** sake JR at least had the ability to see that signing Jordan to insane (especially at the time) 1 year deals was worth it because paying for a guy like Jordan pays dividends. Ohtani would have paid handsome dividends as well. JR should know what it's like to have one of the GOATs in his organization and laughing at the idea of Ohtani was just pathetic and frankly, shows a lacking of business acumen. Then again, didn't Mike have to get the Knicks involved before JR finally ponied up? LOL -Not doing what it took to bring in Lebron his first go around as a free agent. -Tony La Russa There's plenty more. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 29 minutes ago, Southwest Sider said: A lot of dead horses to beat when it comes to JR and his tenure. A few for me that stand out the most are: -Not doing what it takes to bring in Miguel Cabrera. Everyone KNEW that that dude was a total stud. We didn't because we didn't want to take Dontrelle Willis? FFS you do what it takes to get one of the best hitters of all time on your team. Instead he went their direct rival the Tigers and tortured us for the rest of his career. -Not doing what it took to bring in Machado and/or Harper. "The money will be spent", but never was, and we watch them both have nice careers at bargain value contracts nowadays. It was time to add to that team but we didn't. It likely failed anyway but that's when I knew this would be the same old s%*#. Hahn was given the autonomy to try out a rebuild but could only pay top of market free agent contracts to relievers. -Not investing in a top notch Minor League system and scouts. At the very least if you're going to be a cheap asshole, invest in your minor leagues and make sure you get the most out of the young players you bring in. So we couldn't even be like Tampa Bay. -Shitting on the idea of signing Ohtani. Yes, of course he wasn't going to come here. But for f*** sake JR at least had the ability to see that signing Jordan to insane (especially at the time) 1 year deals was worth it because paying for a guy like Jordan pays dividends. Ohtani would have paid handsome dividends as well. JR should know what it's like to have one of the GOATs in his organization and laughing at the idea of Ohtani was just pathetic and frankly, shows a lacking of business acumen. Then again, didn't Mike have to get the Knicks involved before JR finally ponied up? LOL -Not doing what it took to bring in Lebron his first go around as a free agent. -Tony La Russa There's plenty more. Well they DID spend money...they just wasted it on stiffs, retreads, has-been's and injury prone guys. I never understood how JR given his "fiscal responsibility" would allow his front office to literally waste millions and millions of dollars on unproductive guys over the years without I guess it bothering him. But to pay say 25 million a year for a proven franchise changer like Harper is a no-no for him. I guess it just goes back to his long held notion that baseball players aren't worth that kind of money. The Dodgers have already found out Ohtani's contract is paying for itself in attendance, merchandise and marketing opportunities and of course the lucrative far Eastern market. One thing the Commissioner didn't like what JR said at that press conference concerning him and called him on the carpet for it in a phone call. (Not that JR really cared he didn't even want Manfred as the guy in charge.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 52 minutes ago, Southwest Sider said: A lot of dead horses to beat when it comes to JR and his tenure. A few for me that stand out the most are: -Not doing what it takes to bring in Miguel Cabrera. Everyone KNEW that that dude was a total stud. We didn't because we didn't want to take Dontrelle Willis? FFS you do what it takes to get one of the best hitters of all time on your team. Instead he went their direct rival the Tigers and tortured us for the rest of his career. -Not doing what it took to bring in Machado and/or Harper. "The money will be spent", but never was, and we watch them both have nice careers at bargain value contracts nowadays. It was time to add to that team but we didn't. It likely failed anyway but that's when I knew this would be the same old s%*#. Hahn was given the autonomy to try out a rebuild but could only pay top of market free agent contracts to relievers. -Not investing in a top notch Minor League system and scouts. At the very least if you're going to be a cheap asshole, invest in your minor leagues and make sure you get the most out of the young players you bring in. So we couldn't even be like Tampa Bay. -Shitting on the idea of signing Ohtani. Yes, of course he wasn't going to come here. But for f*** sake JR at least had the ability to see that signing Jordan to insane (especially at the time) 1 year deals was worth it because paying for a guy like Jordan pays dividends. Ohtani would have paid handsome dividends as well. JR should know what it's like to have one of the GOATs in his organization and laughing at the idea of Ohtani was just pathetic and frankly, shows a lacking of business acumen. Then again, didn't Mike have to get the Knicks involved before JR finally ponied up? LOL -Not doing what it took to bring in Lebron his first go around as a free agent. -Tony La Russa There's plenty more. the true irony is that the one guy who most likely finally got Reinsdorf to invest in the right things is the one everybody hates and wants gone yesterday. Moar Ron Schueller!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 19 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: Well they DID spend money...they just wasted it on stiffs, retreads, has-been's and injury prone guys. I never understood how JR given his "fiscal responsibility" would allow his front office to literally waste millions and millions of dollars on unproductive guys over the years without I guess it bothering him. But to pay say 25 million a year for a proven franchise changer like Harper is a no-no for him. I guess it just goes back to his long held notion that baseball players aren't worth that kind of money. The Dodgers have already found out Ohtani's contract is paying for itself in attendance, merchandise and marketing opportunities and of course the lucrative far Eastern market. One thing the Commissioner didn't like what JR said at that press conference concerning him and called him on the carpet for it in a phone call. (Not that JR really cared he didn't even want Manfred as the guy in charge.) Keuchel Grandal Lynn Kimbrel/Pollock Hendriks Graveman Kelly Benintendi and Robert/Moncada/Jimenez extensions...is precisely where all the money went. Just spent VERY inefficiently. But $200 million is now a rounding error for the Dodgers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 4 minutes ago, WestEddy said: the true irony is that the one guy who most likely finally got Reinsdorf to invest in the right things is the one everybody hates and wants gone yesterday. Moar Ron Schueller!! One L. But it was Larry Himes that actually knew what he was doing. Just didn't have the personality to play well with others (aka kiss bosses' asses). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 23 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: One L. But it was Larry Himes that actually knew what he was doing. Just didn't have the personality to play well with others (aka kiss bosses' asses). Weird how Himes didn't win big time with the Cubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 16 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Weird how Himes didn't win big time with the Cubs. "Larry Himes took us from point A to point B. He was very successful in getting us to point B. We need to get to point C. It’s our opinion that Larry Himes is not the best person to get us to point C — a world’s championship." Guess who?, JR lol "Let’s move along to his Cubs tenure. The North Siders hired Himes as GM in Oct. 1991. The JIm Frey Cubs were, by then, leaking oil. Outscored by .25 runs/game in 1991, they had just three starting players with an above average OPS or ERA: Ryne Sandberg, Andre Dawson and Greg Maddux. By the end of the strike-shortened 1994 season, the Cubs were shedding .44 runs/game and had just four starting players with above-average OPS/ERA: Sammy Sosa, Steve Trachsel, Anthony Young, and the doomed Kevin Foster. The axe fell on Himes that October. What went wrong?" "The slow-motion collapse of the Himes Regime was unlamented, bitter and nasty. Himes’ notoriously high-handed manner and cavalier management style had alienated personnel, particularly Mark Grace, Ryne Sandberg and ex-Cub Andre Dawson. His sloppiness in handling the Greg Maddux contract negotiations had allowed the greatest pitcher of our lifetime to leave town." https://cubbiescrib.com/2022/03/12/chicago-cubs-troubling-times-larry-himes-general-manager/#:~:text=He drafted two future Hall of Famers in,careers%3A Ray Durham%2C Alex Fernandez and Bob Wickman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 5 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: "Larry Himes took us from point A to point B. He was very successful in getting us to point B. We need to get to point C. It’s our opinion that Larry Himes is not the best person to get us to point C — a world’s championship." Guess who?, JR lol "Let’s move along to his Cubs tenure. The North Siders hired Himes as GM in Oct. 1991. The JIm Frey Cubs were, by then, leaking oil. Outscored by .25 runs/game in 1991, they had just three starting players with an above average OPS or ERA: Ryne Sandberg, Andre Dawson and Greg Maddux. By the end of the strike-shortened 1994 season, the Cubs were shedding .44 runs/game and had just four starting players with above-average OPS/ERA: Sammy Sosa, Steve Trachsel, Anthony Young, and the doomed Kevin Foster. The axe fell on Himes that October. What went wrong?" "The slow-motion collapse of the Himes Regime was unlamented, bitter and nasty. Himes’ notoriously high-handed manner and cavalier management style had alienated personnel, particularly Mark Grace, Ryne Sandberg and ex-Cub Andre Dawson. His sloppiness in handling the Greg Maddux contract negotiations had allowed the greatest pitcher of our lifetime to leave town." https://cubbiescrib.com/2022/03/12/chicago-cubs-troubling-times-larry-himes-general-manager/#:~:text=He drafted two future Hall of Famers in,careers%3A Ray Durham%2C Alex Fernandez and Bob Wickman. So with the Cubs, Larry Himes was a hot-headed psychopath who blew apart the team with his "personality", but he was unfairly fired from the White Sox solely because he wouldn't kiss JR's heinie? LOL. Which team was it that takes swipes at an employee's reputation when they're fired? 2 funny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 31 minutes ago, WestEddy said: So with the Cubs, Larry Himes was a hot-headed psychopath who blew apart the team with his "personality", but he was unfairly fired from the White Sox solely because he wouldn't kiss JR's heinie? LOL. Which team was it that takes swipes at an employee's reputation when they're fired? 2 funny. Ask Lip about the slander campaign against Himes when he left... Ofc Himes was also known for the Alvarez Sosa Fletcher/Baines trade and then ended up with Sosa again on the Northside as the Cubs' star veteran core group aged out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Ask Lip about the slander campaign against Himes when he left... Ofc Himes was also known for the Alvarez Sosa Fletcher/Baines trade and then ended up with Sosa again on the Northside as the Cubs' star veteran core group aged out. Nobody said he didn't build a great team. If was any bit the psycho on the White Sox as he was with the Cubs, it was Reinsdorf's duty to warn the rest of the world. Maddux wanted to stay with the Cubs. Ryno walked away from the game because of him. Was that Reinsdorf making up those stories? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 3 minutes ago, WestEddy said: Nobody said he didn't build a great team. If was any bit the psycho on the White Sox as he was with the Cubs, it was Reinsdorf's duty to warn the rest of the world. Maddux wanted to stay with the Cubs. Ryno walked away from the game because of him. Was that Reinsdorf making up those stories? Remember how much JR supposedly hates the Cubs? Why would he warn or help them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 10 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: Just as a thought experiment a few years ago, I broke the years down from 51-67 into two A.L. divisions. Under that scenario the Sox would have made the playoffs six times. Six times in 17 seasons compared to Jerry's seven times in FORTY-FIVE seasons. Plus, JR has had 31 seasons under the 3-division plus wild card(s) format. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 25 minutes ago, caulfield12 said: Ask Lip about the slander campaign against Himes when he left... Ofc Himes was also known for the Alvarez Sosa Fletcher/Baines trade and then ended up with Sosa again on the Northside as the Cubs' star veteran core group aged out. September 15, 1990 - Owner Jerry Reinsdorf fired G.M. Larry Himes citing ‘personality differences.’ Himes drafted and signed Sox future stars like Frank Thomas, Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura and Alex Fernandez. During the press conference announcing the hiring of Ron Schueler as new G.M., Reinsdorf issued his famous ‘Point A to point B to point C’ comment. Later in a rare radio appearance he was candid on the subject to host Chet Coppock. “The fact is Larry Himes cannot get along with anybody. You can hardly find anybody in the Sox organization that wasn’t happy when Larry Himes left.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 8 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said: September 15, 1990 - Owner Jerry Reinsdorf fired G.M. Larry Himes citing ‘personality differences.’ Himes drafted and signed Sox future stars like Frank Thomas, Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura and Alex Fernandez. During the press conference announcing the hiring of Ron Schueler as new G.M., Reinsdorf issued his famous ‘Point A to point B to point C’ comment. Later in a rare radio appearance he was candid on the subject to host Chet Coppock. “The fact is Larry Himes cannot get along with anybody. You can hardly find anybody in the Sox organization that wasn’t happy when Larry Himes left.” I find it funny that everybody kvetches that they don't get straight talk from the front office, and when they do, they fall down on the sidewalk and cry. He was right about Himes. Shoot, I'm a Sox fan, and I'm pissed for Cub fans about Maddux going to the Braves and Ryno retiring for a couple of years. And it was only after Himes was gone that Al Goldis drafted Kerry Wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloydBannister1983 Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 14 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: Well they DID spend money...they just wasted it on stiffs, retreads, has-been's and injury prone guys. I never understood how JR given his "fiscal responsibility" would allow his front office to literally waste millions and millions of dollars on unproductive guys over the years without I guess it bothering him. But to pay say 25 million a year for a proven franchise changer like Harper is a no-no for him. I guess it just goes back to his long held notion that baseball players aren't worth that kind of money. The Dodgers have already found out Ohtani's contract is paying for itself in attendance, merchandise and marketing opportunities and of course the lucrative far Eastern market. One thing the Commissioner didn't like what JR said at that press conference concerning him and called him on the carpet for it in a phone call. (Not that JR really cared he didn't even want Manfred as the guy in charge.) Spending money on short term contracts that get you out from under them quickly is not really spending money. It’s smoke and mirrors. A parlor trick and unhealthy candy for the fans. A Harper signing would have been a healthy signing. A Grandal and Benitendi and Belle signing are silliness. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 14 minutes ago, FloydBannister1983 said: Spending money on short term contracts that get you out from under them quickly is not really spending money. It’s smoke and mirrors. A parlor trick and unhealthy candy for the fans. A Harper signing would have been a healthy signing. A Grandal and Benitendi and Belle signing are silliness. This is me being nitpicky, but I wouldn't lump Grandal into the category of bad signings. It made all the sense in the world at that moment in time. James McCann put up a great 2019 with the Sox but everyone knew it was kind of a fluke season. The "core" was starting to come together in 2019 with Abreu-Anderson-Moncada-Eloy-Giolito-Cease, with Robert and Madrigal on the way. They added Grandal in November, and wanted to sign Wheeler next. Wheeler ended up signing with the Phillies on December 9th, and the Sox settled for Keuchel on December 30th. Sox really needed some balance in the lineup as their entire core was made up of RHH and his switch hitting power profile made a lot of sense to add to the team. We all know how it ended up going, but that was the right move at the time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 4 minutes ago, Tony said: This is me being nitpicky, but I wouldn't lump Grandal into the category of bad signings. It made all the sense in the world at that moment in time. James McCann put up a great 2019 with the Sox but everyone knew it was kind of a fluke season. The "core" was starting to come together in 2019 with Abreu-Anderson-Moncada-Eloy-Giolito-Cease, with Robert and Madrigal on the way. They added Grandal in November, and wanted to sign Wheeler next. Wheeler ended up signing with the Phillies on December 9th, and the Sox settled for Keuchel on December 30th. Sox really needed some balance in the lineup as their entire core was made up of RHH and his switch hitting power profile made a lot of sense to add to the team. We all know how it ended up going, but that was the right move at the time. I do think this is fair. In hindsight it is easy to judge the results, but the guy was the top available player at the position the Sox needed to fix the most. If we had done similar with guys like Machado and/or Bryce Harper, I can't help but draw a new timeline that looks much different. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 4 hours ago, Tony said: This is me being nitpicky, but I wouldn't lump Grandal into the category of bad signings. It made all the sense in the world at that moment in time. James McCann put up a great 2019 with the Sox but everyone knew it was kind of a fluke season. The "core" was starting to come together in 2019 with Abreu-Anderson-Moncada-Eloy-Giolito-Cease, with Robert and Madrigal on the way. They added Grandal in November, and wanted to sign Wheeler next. Wheeler ended up signing with the Phillies on December 9th, and the Sox settled for Keuchel on December 30th. Sox really needed some balance in the lineup as their entire core was made up of RHH and his switch hitting power profile made a lot of sense to add to the team. We all know how it ended up going, but that was the right move at the time. You just liked the Grandal signing because you broke the news Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 5 minutes ago, fathom said: You just liked the Grandal signing because you broke the news God damn you. 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FloydBannister1983 Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 5 hours ago, Tony said: This is me being nitpicky, but I wouldn't lump Grandal into the category of bad signings. It made all the sense in the world at that moment in time. James McCann put up a great 2019 with the Sox but everyone knew it was kind of a fluke season. The "core" was starting to come together in 2019 with Abreu-Anderson-Moncada-Eloy-Giolito-Cease, with Robert and Madrigal on the way. They added Grandal in November, and wanted to sign Wheeler next. Wheeler ended up signing with the Phillies on December 9th, and the Sox settled for Keuchel on December 30th. Sox really needed some balance in the lineup as their entire core was made up of RHH and his switch hitting power profile made a lot of sense to add to the team. We all know how it ended up going, but that was the right move at the time. Not necessarily bad signings just not evidence of Reinsdorf being a big spender to sign him to a relatively short term deal, which I believe is still the one of the largest contracts in team history. Has Reinsdorf ever signed an 8 year contract with anybody? I'm not aware of even any 6 year contracts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 18 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said: September 15, 1990 - Owner Jerry Reinsdorf fired G.M. Larry Himes citing ‘personality differences.’ Himes drafted and signed Sox future stars like Frank Thomas, Jack McDowell, Robin Ventura and Alex Fernandez. During the press conference announcing the hiring of Ron Schueler as new G.M., Reinsdorf issued his famous ‘Point A to point B to point C’ comment. Later in a rare radio appearance he was candid on the subject to host Chet Coppock. “The fact is Larry Himes cannot get along with anybody. You can hardly find anybody in the Sox organization that wasn’t happy when Larry Himes left.” Whose decision was it to push Jeff Torborg out the door after the 1991 season? Was that Reinsdorf or Schueler? Another bone-headed move by this front office. Was Gene Lamont any better? Or how about Terry Bevington (lol)? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WBWSF Posted October 30 Share Posted October 30 Its a shame I never had the money to own the White Sox. I would have never fired Larry Himes, never. He was great as a White Sox GM. As far as his personality goes, so what if he wasn't liked. He was a very productive GM. Many years ago George Weiss was the Yankees GM and he built a Dynasty. He had the personality of a dead fish. But yet the Yankees kept him because he was a successful GM. The Yankees let him go after the 1960 season. Weiss parting words were the Yankees will be in trouble in 5 years. Turned out he was right. The Yankees collapsed in 1965. Weiss was hired as the Mets GM in 1962. Weiss was inducted into the MLB HOF a few years later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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