Floyd's arm beginning to convert some believers

[elrockinMT]

You have to gauge a player over at least a full season or more to say they have mde it in the bigs. A start or two one way or the other is really not the way to go. Of course it helps a pitcher when he has better than low grade level defense behind him and real bad relief pitching. Floyd has potential and that's not a question, but can he be consistent as a winner?

[NorthSideSox72]

When did I say that?

I will add, consistent with that quote, that old man Thome, veteran(read:"old, worn and torn") catcher AJ Pierzynski, Konerko (the hipster whose power I see going down a tad and whose speed will remain the same...) and Dye (who might be electric, might be bad, might be middle -- won't be MVP-like ever again) is a terrible base to build from. It's just not a solid core of players anymore. It's one-dimensional, injury prone in two cases and not that good, overall. (Is Konerko a top ten first baseman? Sure. Bottom top ten. Dye top ten? Maybe. AJ? Bottom top ten.) And these are our stars?

 

Not a good team to build off of. No youth, energy or versatility. Just the same old s***.

 

Nowhere did I say that those players are bad players, though, but why would that matter?

Do you not even remember what you said earlier in this thread? Here is your quote:

 

Many of the players are just as bad as they've played this year. And if you played this season ten times, you might find this season could get worse.

 

This is a terrible team to start building off of except maybe pitching but even that's looking iffy to me.

 

So I called you on it. Your assessment that these players are bad, and that only the pitching is "maybe" worth building off of, says that Thome/PK/Dye/AJP/Crede are bad. I am saying they are not.

 

[Gregory Pratt]

Many of the players are just as bad as they've played this year.

 

I don't see where that says,

 

"Konerko, Thome, Dye and AJ are as bad as they played this year."

 

You say,

 

So I called you on it. Your assessment that these players are bad, and that only the pitching is "maybe" worth building off of, says that Thome/PK/Dye/AJP/Crede are bad. I am saying they are not.

 

I said "many of these players" not "all" and I didn't label these guys out specifically, but thanks for 'calling me' on the purple elephants that only you see in that post.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Gregory Pratt

[NorthSideSox72]

The problem is even when these guys put up great numbers, and I really don't know how you could expect bigger numbers collectively than what these guys provided in 2006, it wasn't nearly good enough. The pitching will be key. Somehow KW is going to have to fix the mess he has while peeling off a Garland or Vazquez. Its going to be difficult, because the Sox don't have an organization filled with innings eaters.

They don't? I'd say the definitely have an organization filled with innings eaters. Heck, the Sox starters have pitched more innings than all but two other teams in baseball. How does that not indicate to you that they eat innings?

 

The only mess in the pitching department is the half dozen crappy or inconsistent bullpen guys this team rolled out there from May through July (plus a couple guys out there now: Myers and Bukvich).

 

[Dick Allen]

They don't? I'd say the definitely have an organization filled with innings eaters. Heck, the Sox starters have pitched more innings than all but two other teams in baseball. How does that not indicate to you that they eat innings?

 

The only mess in the pitching department is the half dozen crappy or inconsistent bullpen guys this team rolled out there from May through July (plus a couple guys out there now: Myers and Bukvich).

They have no one in the minors you can expect to come in next year and pitch 175 innings, and I am ;the biggest Gio Gonzalez fan on this board. Danks ran out of gas after about 90 innings this season. Perhaps next year he will last longer, but I doubt he can double it. If Garland or Vazquez go or even Contreras that will be someone the last couple of years 200 innings were counted on. I think contreras is still a mess right now as is Danks as he is 0-7 with a 6.80 ERA his last 8 starts. Garland has not be very good his last 10 starts or so overall, and I think he will be gone so a rookie is going to fill in unless someone is acquired. That could be 60% of the rotation which is coming into 2008 ugly.

[Yossarian]

The Sox are 95-126 since 7-6-06. That's a stunning .430 winning percentage, or about 69.6 wins over the course of a season. They are 37-63 since May 27, which is a .370 winning percentage, and translates to slightly less than 60 wins in a season. That means a 100+ loss season. How about 9-26 in their last 35 games. Anyone see a trend here? This is a bad team getting worse. Posters such as yours truly may even be a tad optimistic, while being called to task for not having a sunny enough outlook.

[NorthSideSox72]

The Sox are 95-126 since 7-6-06. That's a stunning .430 winning percentage, or about 69.6 wins over the course of a season. They are 37-63 since May 27, which is a .370 winning percentage, and translates to slightly less than 60 wins in a season. That means a 100+ loss season. How about 9-26 in their last 35 games. Anyone see a trend here? This is a bad team getting worse. Posters such as yours truly may even be a tad optimistic, while being called to task for not having a sunny enough outlook.

Not much question, this team has been going downhill for a while. Major changes are needed, and I'd bet you'll see them this offseason. If not, there will be some rightfully angry fans.

 

[Balta1701]

They have no one in the minors you can expect to come in next year and pitch 175 innings, and I am ;the biggest Gio Gonzalez fan on this board. Danks ran out of gas after about 90 innings this season. Perhaps next year he will last longer, but I doubt he can double it. If Garland or Vazquez go or even Contreras that will be someone the last couple of years 200 innings were counted on. I think contreras is still a mess right now as is Danks as he is 0-7 with a 6.80 ERA his last 8 starts. Garland has not be very good his last 10 starts or so overall, and I think he will be gone so a rookie is going to fill in unless someone is acquired. That could be 60% of the rotation which is coming into 2008 ugly.

Gavin Floyd certainly seems like he could htrow 175+ innings next year.

Lance Broadway threw 155 this year in the minors and is tacking on more in the majors.

Egbert threw 160 innings last year and 155 this year.

Haeger threw 150 this year and 180 last year between the minors and majors.

Phillips threw 173 this year and is still going.

Gio has thrown 150 each of the last 2 years.

 

If all you're asking about is innings eaters...on that we're loaded, which was the original question.

 

The secondary question is...which ones of these guys can step up and be above average big league pitcher sin the next few years? That's the question we still have to answer. It could well be none of them...but at least we have a boatload of candidates.

Edited September 11, 2007 by Balta1701

[Dick Allen]

Gavin Floyd certainly seems like he could htrow 175+ innings next year.

Lance Broadway threw 155 this year in the minors and is tacking on more in the majors.

Egbert threw 160 innings last year and 155 this year.

Haeger threw 150 this year and 180 last year between the minors and majors.

Phillips threw 173 this year and is still going.

 

If all you're asking about is innings eaters...on that we're loaded, which was the original question.

 

The secondary question is...which ones of these guys can step up and be above average big league pitcher sin the next few years? That's the question we still have to answer. It could well be none of them...but at least we have a boatload of candidates.

Big difference in pitching in the minors and majors. Also you've penciled Gavin Floyd for 175 innings next season. Please don't back off of it.

[Balta1701]

Big difference in pitching in the minors and majors. Also you've penciled Gavin Floyd for 175 innings next season. Please don't back off of it.

I think Gavin Floyd could easily throw 175 innings next year. In 2005 he threw 165, in 2006 he threw 170. He's backed off of that a bit this year because the Sox didn't give him regular work.

 

The question is not whether or not his body will be able to eat the innings. I think he can certainly do that. The question is...how good will the innings be. He could probably throw 200+ innings next year if we gave him a full season in the bigs. But the question is...will we want him to.

[southsider2k5]

Big difference in pitching in the minors and majors. Also you've penciled Gavin Floyd for 175 innings next season. Please don't back off of it.

 

Boy Rosie is in the mood to rumble today...

[Harry Chappas]

The White Sox mailed this season in around the end of June. Despite the popular notion that they were competing to win, I call bulls***. The minute Erstad and Podsednik got hurt the Sox should have been on the phone to try and get Loften type stop gap if they were serious. Any analysis of this season in my eyes in realtion to veteran players ended about that time. They realized they had nothing to play for.

 

In April the notion was that Cleveland, Minnesota and Detroit were all going ot win 90 games. First off, that is almost statistically impossible secondly those teams had and still have some major holes as well. Maybe not as large as the White Sox but there are bullpen issues, positional issues and rotation issues with each.

 

While Bonderman, Miller and Verlander were annointed the roation of the future, two of three have spent time on the DL. Cliff Lee and Westbrook are not the pitchers they were believed to be (see Steve Phillips on this) and who knows how Lariano will come back. That is something the Sox rotation has had only happen once in three years and that was Contrearas last season for a couple of weeks. The proven health and track record of the rotation is a strength not many GM's can rely on that KW can going into the offseason. This heatlth extends deep into the minors in regard to starting pitching and trading options.

 

Floyd is 24 and has been inconsistent but some team (Pittsburgh, Florida, Washington, Tampa Bay, etc.) can make this trade as pointed out earlier. Teams like the Braves are out of contention in a National League that is disgustingly bad. The Braves put out a couple pitchers this season that were worse than Floyd, as have the Cardinals. At 24 he has the upside and injury history that teams will bank on as oppossed to signing Kip Wells to a $5M/yr deal or somethign like that.

 

I guess the rose colored glasses may be in place but i am not going ot write this team off for next year as I think they need a bench coach, Hall to get healthy and an infusion of some middle of the road talent to get back into it as I think the AL Central will come back to them a little.

[Soxfest]

I hope Floyd can continue this good streak.

[Yossarian]

I hope Floyd can continue this good streak.

We all do.

 

[DBAHO]

I'm going to bump this, because of Joe Cowley's piece here for discussion's sake;

 

KANSAS CITY, Mo. -- ''Mr. September'' continued to open eyes Tuesday.

 

Sure, there was the stumble out of the gate to the tune of three runs and four hits in the first inning, but after that, White Sox starting pitcher Gavin Floyd silenced the Kansas City bats in a 3-2 loss at Kauffman Stadium.

 

While Floyd (1-4) is winless in his last four starts, the right-hander has put up good numbers, allowing just nine earned runs in that span for a 3.33 ERA.

 

''I like the way he's thrown the last three outings, and hopefully he continues to do it,'' manager Ozzie Guillen said.

 

But there is a serious danger in evaluating Floyd right now.

 

He has put up these numbers with nothing on the line. The Sox have been a dead team walking since mid-July. If the Sox overvalue what Floyd can do, enough so that they feel comfortable in moving a Jon Garland or Jose Contreras this offseason, that's a huge gamble.

 

The knock on Floyd when he played for the Phillies was ''deer-in-headlights syndrome,'' and while the South Side doesn't equal the hostile environment found in Philadelphia, the last thing the Sox need to see is Floyd devoured next April.

 

''No doubt, of course,'' Guillen responded when asked if overestimating Floyd was a concern. ''Playing in Chicago is different than anywhere else. People got to understand that. Whoever comes here, the expectations are high, the fans are tough, the media is hard on players. They do what they're supposed to do. When you lose, I don't expect the media to be nice to me. I don't expect the fans to be nice, but it's not an easy place to play.

 

''But he got better every outing, and that's what we deal with. And he's got his own destiny. Can he pitch in the heat? We're going to find out right away. Can he pitch when the game is on the line or means something? We'll see what happens if we have something for him next year.''

 

The Sox have to make a decision on Floyd one way or the other because he is out of options. The bullpen is an unrealistic assignment for him, considering the 6.39 ERA he managed in six appearances there. So it would be starter or bust for Floyd, who was acquired along with prospect Gio Gonzalez from the Phillies in the Freddy Garcia trade.

 

 

[Gregory Pratt]

Playing in Chicago is different than anywhere else.

 

That's something I've never understood.

 

Wrigley? It's a no-pressure environment. Sure, they've never won anything -- or might as well have never won anything -- and the fans love to be there at the ballpark and are more than happy to say, "Next year." Red Sox fans? They want it real bad. Yankee fans? Real bad. Met fans? Well, they want it too, but they're not as hardcore. The media is still the NY media, though. The LA teams? I don't know what kind of heat they get but it's California, with several teams and two teams in the city, with fair success. Sure there's pressure, but it isn't huge. And chicago? What kind of pressure do we have on the southside of Chicago? What's the big difference between playing in Chicago? It's softer than NY, that's for sure. It's got alright ballparks. The fans are fairly forgiving, even though Sox fans will boo you every so often, but they don't all that much. I remember Buehrle getting booed once last year, against the Angels when he balked in runs and gave up three solo homeruns, but even that was minimal. We generally support our players fairly well. (Not necessarily on SoxTalk, but at the ballpark. Scott Podsednik is God at the Cell. Here? He's a dog, judging by the comments.)

 

I mean, what are people talking about when they talk about different it is to play here?

[southsideirish71]

(Not necessarily on SoxTalk, but at the ballpark. Scott Podsednik is God at the Cell. Here? He's a dog, judging by the comments.)

 

Please dont use the gaggle of 13 year old girls at the Cell with Mrs. Podsednik shirts as the pulse of Sox fans.

Edited September 19, 2007 by southsideirish71

[Gregory Pratt]

Please dont use the gaggle of 13 year old girls at the Cell with Mrs. Podsednik shirts as the pulse of Sox fans.

 

No. That's a cute way to disparage Podsednik but he has a lot of male fans at the cell and the place goes nuts for him. Sure, there are a lot of teenage girls who like him but a lot of guys have Podsednik shirts and jerseys at the ballpark. It's kind of a weird phenomena.

[Harry Chappas]

No. That's a cute way to disparage Podsednik but he has a lot of male fans at the cell and the place goes nuts for him. Sure, there are a lot of teenage girls who like him but a lot of guys have Podsednik shirts and jerseys at the ballpark. It's kind of a weird phenomena.

 

Chicago is different not necessarily more stressful nor are the media and fans as harsh as Phillie or New York but it is different. Sosa was a god and Thomas was a jerk. The reality of the two players is that the treatment should have been much different. I am not exactly certain what it is but I believe that Chicago baseball fans are either well informed or they are the....."chic to been seen fan" who feel they should boo whenever something happens they do not like. A player dogging it or being an asshole should be boo'd. Ryan Dempster blowing one save after 14 straight successful apperances should not. Cory Patterson was boo'd because of expectations. That is the situation as it sits with Chicago. The Chicago media fans this stupidity with their uninformed flip flopping. The casual fan relies on this information to a large degree to get a sense of a player. Somebody like Bobby Jenks should be an icon in this city as well as Mark Buerhle, Derek Lee and Aramiz Ramirez yet Carlos Zambrano is the highest paid of all of them. The baseball scene is really weird and I beleive it is the media spin that creates it. Simply put, why Sox fans boo Frank Thomas is a mystery to me and why cub fans turned on Sosa so quickly is the same.

Edited September 19, 2007 by Jenks Heat

[RockRaines]

No. That's a cute way to disparage Podsednik but he has a lot of male fans at the cell and the place goes nuts for him. Sure, there are a lot of teenage girls who like him but a lot of guys have Podsednik shirts and jerseys at the ballpark. It's kind of a weird phenomena.

Yeah, cause he won a title with the sox. You also see alot of other players shirts that we all want to get rid of. It makes no difference

[Gregory Pratt]

Yeah, cause he won a title with the sox. You also see alot of other players shirts that we all want to get rid of. It makes no difference

 

Yeah. But the point I make is, Sox fans on the message boards have big issues with Ozzie and Podsednik but at the ballpark? Ozzie has a significant amount of support and Podsednik's shirt sells a ton. In everything there's a huge, interesting difference between the thoughts of the elite and the masses. Like Teddy Roosevelt, who the elitist thought belonged in a bar but the public loved.

 

Scott Podsednik is Teddy Roosevelt.

 

And I only brought up Teddy as a joke-analogy, although the analogy does stand.

Edited September 19, 2007 by Gregory Pratt

[Rowand44]

The team hasn't had anything on the line but Gavin sure has.

[witesoxfan]

The team hasn't had anything on the line but Gavin sure has.

 

I figure with another good appearance or two, he should be a favorite to make the pitching staff next year.

[scenario]

I figure with another good appearance or two, he should be a favorite to make the pitching staff next year.

 

If Gavin has a quality start next time out, he'll be tied for 2nd longest QS streak by any Sox starter this year.

 

The only starter with a longer run than 5 is MB who's had 8, I think.

 

The most Danks strung together was 4.

Edited September 19, 2007 by scenario

[BearSox]

I really don't see what the risk in swapping Floyd in for Contreras would be. Contreras has been god awful this season and I find it tough to believe Floyd would be much worse.