Texsox Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Jan 5, 2011 -> 02:01 PM) It's already the most exclusive Hall that there is. I think it'd be harder for it to get more exclusive. You have to let some players in, and some of them will be borderline. The LPGA says hello. I would rather they reward steller behavior and character than just punish bad behavior. I'd love to see Baines in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 QUOTE (Pale Sox @ Jan 6, 2011 -> 02:10 AM) The idea that Alomar was a "negative" defender statistically really puts a damper in how I value statistic defensive metrics. Holy s***! I thought you were kidding. I've become a big proponent of UZR the last couple years. But in this case UZR is going to have to kiss my f***ing black ass. Alomar is the best defensive second baseman I've ever seen. Baseball Reference's defensive stats also paint Alomar's D in a negative light. Oh, well, they can kiss my ass, too. QUOTE (Tex @ Jan 6, 2011 -> 01:00 PM) The LPGA says hello. I would rather they reward steller behavior and character than just punish bad behavior. I'd love to see Baines in. Then they may as well shut the HOF down for eternity. Baines was a very good player. But a HOF? Me no think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 6, 2011 -> 04:13 PM) Holy s***! I thought you were kidding. I've become a big proponent of UZR the last couple years. But in this case UZR is going to have to kiss my f***ing black ass. Alomar is the best defensive second baseman I've ever seen. Baseball Reference's defensive stats also paint Alomar's D in a negative light. Oh, well, they can kiss my ass, too. Then they may as well shut the HOF down for eternity. Baines was a very good player. But a HOF? Me no think so. I really don't think Baines is a Hall of Famer either. The defense I hear most often is that he has the most hits for a player not in the HOF. That's great, good for him. And if he were inducted, then another guy would have the most hits for a player not in the HOF. Where does it end? There has to be a cutoff point, and Baines seems like the perfect place to start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted January 6, 2011 Share Posted January 6, 2011 QUOTE (Milkman delivers @ Jan 6, 2011 -> 03:29 PM) I really don't think Baines is a Hall of Famer either. The defense I hear most often is that he has the most hits for a player not in the HOF. That's great, good for him. And if he were inducted, then another guy would have the most hits for a player not in the HOF. Where does it end? There has to be a cutoff point, and Baines seems like the perfect place to start. You're going to rack up some hits when you play two damn decades. He doesn't even have one 30 HR season to his credit. No way is he a HOF. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Serious question and want to see where people stand: Omar Vizquel Y/N? For me it's an easy No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eminor3rd Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Jan 6, 2011 -> 10:09 PM) Serious question and want to see where people stand: Omar Vizquel Y/N? For me it's an easy No. I agree that at first it seems like an easy no -- slick defense light-hitter. But then you look at the numbers and... doesn't he have the most hits of any SS in history or something? I feel like a plus-plus defender who happens to have the most hits in his position's history HAS to be in, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Jan 6, 2011 -> 11:09 PM) Serious question and want to see where people stand: Omar Vizquel Y/N? For me it's an easy No. For me it's a no too, however, Ozzie Smith getting in really helps Omar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paint it Black Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Jan 6, 2011 -> 10:14 PM) I agree that at first it seems like an easy no -- slick defense light-hitter. But then you look at the numbers and... doesn't he have the most hits of any SS in history or something? I feel like a plus-plus defender who happens to have the most hits in his position's history HAS to be in, right? Not really. I mean it's almost expected for someone who has played this long. Plus, did anybody EVER consider Omar Vizquel a top 5 player in the league...EVER? Actually I think he has only got 1 MVP vote his entire career. To me, that says a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Yes on Omar. Harolds off the ballot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Jan 6, 2011 -> 03:13 PM) Holy s***! I thought you were kidding. I've become a big proponent of UZR the last couple years. But in this case UZR is going to have to kiss my f***ing black ass. Alomar is the best defensive second baseman I've ever seen. Baseball Reference's defensive stats also paint Alomar's D in a negative light. Oh, well, they can kiss my ass, too. Yeah, I believe defensive metrics also point to Torii Hunter during his prime days in Minnesota as being a below average defender, which I don't get. But the Roberto Alomar defensive stats are truly baffling. I think Tim Raines is a borderline yes, but I can see why he isn't in. His vote should be closer to 75 percent though IMO. I think Larkin is a pretty good bet to get in next year since he's in the low 60's this year and the 1st year guys next year suck. It'll be interesting to see what percentage Jack Morris gets as well. I think Morris is a borderline no and Blyleven a borderline yes, but I can see Morris getting in now that Blyleven is. It'll also be very interesting to see what percentage Bernie Williams gets. He's clearly the cream of the crop of the 1st year guys (admittedly not saying much) and obviously he played on the big stage being on the Yankees and in many playoff games. Edited January 7, 2011 by whitesoxfan101 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE (whitesoxfan101 @ Jan 7, 2011 -> 01:18 AM) Yeah, I believe defensive metrics also point to Torii Hunter during his prime days in Minnesota as being a below average defender, which I don't get. But the Roberto Alomar defensive stats are truly baffling. Hunter was great at some things (diving catches, clearing the wall) but I recall hearing Twins fans say that he was overrated; he didn't set up the position well or get good jumps. He made up for the lack of good jumps with spectacular finishes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 7, 2011 -> 07:46 AM) Hunter was great at some things (diving catches, clearing the wall) but I recall hearing Twins fans say that he was overrated; he didn't set up the position well or get good jumps. He made up for the lack of good jumps with spectacular finishes. That sounds like Jim Edmonds to me too. He obviously didnt make the athletic plays Hunter did, but I have heard Cards fans say that part of the reason he was constantly diving for balls was that he would make bad reads or get a bad jump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 7, 2011 -> 08:51 AM) That sounds like Jim Edmonds to me too. He obviously didnt make the athletic plays Hunter did, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Touche. I guess have more memories of him recently with the Cubs, a little older and slower. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Jan 7, 2011 -> 08:51 AM) That sounds like Jim Edmonds to me too. He obviously didnt make the athletic plays Hunter did, but I have heard Cards fans say that part of the reason he was constantly diving for balls was that he would make bad reads or get a bad jump. Ah, the old "Eric Byrnes" syndrome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Torii Hunter was a great defensive cf in his prime, he got excellent reads and jumps, all the freaking time. As for Edmonds, I don't really remember his time with the Angels but when he was on the Cardinals, he did the exact opposite, got awful reads and just made diving plays to make up for the steps he lost by getting terrible jumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE (Paint it Black @ Jan 6, 2011 -> 10:22 PM) Not really. I mean it's almost expected for someone who has played this long. Plus, did anybody EVER consider Omar Vizquel a top 5 player in the league...EVER? Actually I think he has only got 1 MVP vote his entire career. To me, that says a lot. Defensively, yes. There is some precedent for putting in players based mostly on defense Ozzie smith, Brooks Robinson. But you need to be "one of the greatest." I think he falls in that category. I would probably so no to the HOF for him but it wouldn't bother me if he did because of the defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Vizquel deserves it. Great defense, pretty good hitter-he'll have over 2800 hits and 400 stolen bases. Played for winning teams. His career is very much like Luis Aparicio, and I'm sure nobody thought he was one of the top five offensive players during his career. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan101 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Jan 7, 2011 -> 07:46 AM) Hunter was great at some things (diving catches, clearing the wall) but I recall hearing Twins fans say that he was overrated; he didn't set up the position well or get good jumps. He made up for the lack of good jumps with spectacular finishes. Ehh we saw a lot of him during his Twins days obviously, and I really don't agree with the Twins fans assesment at all. I think that is much better applied to Jim Edmonds, as others have pointed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WCSox Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 QUOTE (flavum @ Jan 7, 2011 -> 11:08 AM) Vizquel deserves it. Great defense, pretty good hitter-he'll have over 2800 hits and 400 stolen bases. Played for winning teams. His career is very much like Luis Aparicio, and I'm sure nobody thought he was one of the top five offensive players during his career. If Ozzie Smith is in, Omar deserves to be there as well. He was a (slightly) better hitter and just as good defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I'm not sure that he isn't glossing over the big hits that the top guys took too much, but this Verducci chart is interesting. The Baseball Writers Association of America this week gave an emphatic thumbs down to Hall of Fame candidates connected to performance-enhancing drugs. Nothing new there. Since 2007, 15 players have appeared on the ballot who were tied to illegal PEDs through various public sources (the Mitchell Report, news reports, court filings, books, admissions, etc.). None received 25 percent of the vote. How much have PED links affected the voting? For a quick snapshot, you can compare the first-year ballot percentage of those 15 players to the first-year percentages of their two most similar players who have appeared on a ballot according to Similarity Scores, a concept of statistical comparisons developed by Bill James and listed by baseballreference.com. The premier candidates took big hits, some not as much as you might think, and most were too insignificant as candidates to show much of a difference. Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writ...l#ixzz1AZs5DKa2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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