Sergio Santos traded to Toronto

[southsider2k5]

The more I read about Molina and talk to people, the less I am liking this deal. It appears Sickel was the only person very high on Molina, and a lot of people seem to not respect his opinion in the baseball community.

 

Goldstein said Molina would be about #10 or #11 in Jays system, and was apparently #18 on Baseball America's unofficial Jays rankings.

 

Makes me wonder if Molina was really as "untouchable" as Jays fans thought, or if AA was just trying to drive up the perceived value of him and when he made this deal made Kenny feel like he got AA to "cave in" to letting go of Molina, but really never thought as highly of him as he lead on.

 

I don't know, it just worries me how many people think he may just be a reliever, and the fact that most of his success comes from A-ball.

 

Was #18 last year.

[Chicago White Sox]

Was #18 last year.

Callis said he was working on the 2012 list and Molina was going to be #18.

[GoSox05]

How can you dislike a trade the day after it happens?

 

 

[macsandz]

The more I read about Molina and talk to people, the less I am liking this deal. It appears Sickel was the only person very high on Molina, and a lot of people seem to not respect his opinion in the baseball community.

 

Goldstein said Molina would be about #10 or #11 in Jays system, and was apparently #18 on Baseball America's unofficial Jays rankings.

 

Makes me wonder if Molina was really as "untouchable" as Jays fans thought, or if AA was just trying to drive up the perceived value of him and when he made this deal made Kenny feel like he got AA to "cave in" to letting go of Molina, but really never thought as highly of him as he lead on.

 

I don't know, it just worries me how many people think he may just be a reliever, and the fact that most of his success comes from A-ball.

Dont get caught up in the rankings game. Jays have the deepest system in baseball. What matters is one of the key guys responsible for that system works for us now and loves Molina.

[Chicago White Sox]

How can you dislike a trade the day after it happens?

I hated the Ray Durham trade the second it happened and I'm sure many felt the same way about the Jackson/Hudson.

[EvilMonkey]

I find it funny that some of the people here b*tching that we didn't get 7 players for Santos are the same ones in the other thread saying we would be lucky to get a bag of balls for Danks. Most closers have a short shelf life. With Reed in the wings, I just hope the guy they got is as good as they hope.

[Flash Tizzle]

I find it funny that some of the people here b*tching that we didn't get 7 players for Santos are the same ones in the other thread saying we would be lucky to get a bag of balls for Danks. Most closers have a short shelf life. With Reed in the wings, I just hope the guy they got is as good as they hope.

Which really is the most important factor here. If you're willing to trade Santos 1-for-1, which even if it doesn't signal a complete rebuilding implies we're restocking our system, Molina HAS to turn into a quality major leaguer. There isn't even room here for maybes. This is the purpose of having a deep minor league system, to account for the common prospect who never lives up to his potential. But when you're like the White Sox and have a limited international presence and an equally limited farm system these trades have no choice but to work out if we're looking to compete in 3-4 years. Maybe sooner.

[Reddy]

I find it funny that some of the people here b*tching that we didn't get 7 players for Santos are the same ones in the other thread saying we would be lucky to get a bag of balls for Danks. Most closers have a short shelf life. With Reed in the wings, I just hope the guy they got is as good as they hope.

for the first time maybe ever, we agree.

[iamshack]

Which really is the most important factor here. If you're willing to trade Santos 1-for-1, which even if it doesn't signal a complete rebuilding implies we're restocking our system, Molina HAS to turn into a quality major leaguer. There isn't even room here for maybes. This is the purpose of having a deep minor league system, to account for the common prospect who never lives up to his potential. But when you're like the White Sox and have a limited international presence and an equally limited farm system these trades have no choice but to work out if we're looking to compete in 3-4 years. Maybe sooner.

Hell, for this trade to be a success, he has to turn into a high quality Major League starter, in my opinion. You don't trade a guy who has proven he can succeed at the Major League level in one of the more difficult roles, especially when you have him cost-controlled at a reasonable rate, and that you possess NOW, for some guy who has a chance to be a quality Major Leaguer, in the future.

 

As far as I am concerned, they had better hit a home run on this deal or it's a horrendous trade.

[Reddy]

Hell, for this trade to be a success, he has to turn into a high quality Major League starter, in my opinion. You don't trade a guy who has proven he can succeed at the Major League level in one of the more difficult roles, especially when you have him cost-controlled at a reasonable rate, and that you possess NOW, for some guy who has a chance to be a quality Major Leaguer, in the future.

 

As far as I am concerned, they had better hit a home run on this deal or it's a horrendous trade.

seriously?

 

there's no such THING as proven among closers and relievers in general. If you play fantasy baseball you know that - every year the list of "top closers" is dramatically different. Why? Because they have no lasting power. They'll be good for a couple years then fall off the map. Who's to say Santos isn't exactly the same as the majority of closers out there?

[harfman77]

I like getting Molina back, I think he can profile as a right handed MB down the road. I do think they should have added another guy like Moises Sierra who is eligible for the Rule V draft anyway.

[RockRaines]

I like getting Molina back, I think he can profile as a right handed MB down the road. I do think they should have added another guy like Moises Sierra who is eligible for the Rule V draft anyway.

Except he has totally different stuff than Mark and throws much harder.

[Reddy]

Except he has totally different stuff than Mark and throws much harder.

but otherwise they're identical.

[bmags]

seriously?

 

there's no such THING as proven among closers and relievers in general. If you play fantasy baseball you know that - every year the list of "top closers" is dramatically different. Why? Because they have no lasting power. They'll be good for a couple years then fall off the map. Who's to say Santos isn't exactly the same as the majority of closers out there?

 

That's all fine and well, but that's what made Santos so attractive. If he sucked, it didn't set your team back salary-wise. Which makes him very valuable. His contract was affordable for a 7th inning reliever, let alone closer.

[fathom]

I have a feeling people are going to get really pissed off in this thread when they see what the A's get for Andrew Bailey.

[harfman77]

I have a feeling people are going to get really pissed off in this thread when they see what the A's get for Andrew Bailey.

 

 

Probably just a one for one swap. Bailey for Alonso of Bailey for Dom Brown, same thing right?

[iamshack]

seriously?

 

there's no such THING as proven among closers and relievers in general. If you play fantasy baseball you know that - every year the list of "top closers" is dramatically different. Why? Because they have no lasting power. They'll be good for a couple years then fall off the map. Who's to say Santos isn't exactly the same as the majority of closers out there?

Yes, seriously. Yes, relievers are volatile. But simply because many relievers fail, doesn't mean all relievers will fail.

 

There was obviously belief in the guy, as they kicked in extra money up front to control his arbitration years. There was obviously belief in the guy, since there was a desire from other teams.

 

Perhaps "proven" is the wrong word, since any young player can fail at any time. But did you not watch games last year? Did he not have success last year? Was he not very dominant at times? SS provided quality major league results in a difficult role with nasty stuff at an extremely young age. THAT HAS VALUE. Whether you want to play this horses*** "all relievers are worthless" game to make yourself feel better, every year we see teams trade away quality prospects to rent a reliever for their playoff run. Every year we see teams handing out 3 and 4 year eight-figure deals for relievers.

 

Basically, what you're saying is it's perfectly fine to trade a young player who has succeeded at the Major League level, and who has nasty stuff - this was not just smoke and mirrors - for some guy that has a chance to be a quality Major Leaguer?

 

They had better be damn sure this guy is going to be a quality starter here for several years or this trade is just not logical. You are not "restocking your system" when you trade 1 for 1 off your Major League team for a AA player, btw.

[3E8]

I have a feeling people are going to get really pissed off in this thread when they see what the A's get for Andrew Bailey.

We've seen what teams will offer for relievers with a fraction of the friendliness of Sergio's contract at the trade deadline when they are over a barrel. I do not understand why to trade Santos this soon in a fair-at-best deal unless the Sox know something we don't.

[Eminor3rd]

They had better be damn sure this guy is going to be a quality starter here for several years or this trade is just not logical. You are not "restocking your system" when you trade 1 for 1 off your Major League team for a AA player, btw.

 

Would you rather he got two more Zach Stewarts back?

 

Seriously, based on what AA said in his post-trade interviews, Molina was considered untouchable by at least half the front office, and they were passionately arguing against making this trade. Personally, I'm glad KW is finally targeting some high-ceiling guys instead of a bunch of upper minors role players. Yeah, it's a gamble, but all prospects are. It's the only way.

[iamshack]

Would you rather he got two more Zach Stewarts back?

 

Seriously, based on what AA said in his post-trade interviews, Molina was considered untouchable by at least half the front office, and they were passionately arguing against making this trade. Personally, I'm glad KW is finally targeting some high-ceiling guys instead of a bunch of upper minors role players. Yeah, it's a gamble, but all prospects are. It's the only way.

Look at the part of my post you quoted...I said "they had better be damn sure" about this guy...if that is the case, I am fine with it...but it's hard to understand that when 3/4 of the minor league commentators seem to be saying this guy is just an average prospect.

 

Hey, I'll take their word for it for now since I know nothing about the guy...but all I am saying is they better be right.

 

As for Stewart, I don't get how so many people are so down on the kid. I like his addition to the club, and I think he can be a #3-4 starter or a potential dominant relief arm. And yes, we DO need more guys like him in our system, honestly.

[CyAcosta41]

Good column by Rogers.

Kenny thought he was playing winter ball year ... or did he?

 

Rogers points out most think the Sox got fleeced.

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/baseb...,4406560.column

 

You're kidding, right? Good column? Yeah, sure. The Cubune's Phil Rogers ... the guy with superficial baseball knowledge and little in the way of actual sources ... who forever throws possible deals against a wall (most, like Kaplan, with a decided pro-Cubs angle) hoping that just one of them will stick.

 

The guy is a horrible baseball writer and this was a horrible comment. So what -- the generally very articulate Kenny Williams made a speech boo-boo? Yeah, boo hoo. Rogers thinks that is worthy of a column implying that KW didn't know anything about this particular trade target? You mean the same target that was obviously discussed at length with new Sox (and former Jays) front office guy Marco Paddy? Give me a break. I'm no Williams defender, but there are many supposed professional "journalists" in this town who exhibit zero professionalism by showing no neutrality and balance when they discuss a guy (KW) who they clearly dislike on a personal/professional level.

 

As for the Sox getting fleeced, opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one. Sure, it's risky to deal a guy who has shown some success in the bigs for a guy who hasn't pitched an inning over AA on a one-for-one deal. I think this is rarely a risk worth taking because you can GENERALLY find someone to give you a bit more. But talent evaluation is equal parts science and art. Molina might be the real deal; Santos might have seen his best days already. Supposed can't miss prospects miss all the time. And guys like Buehrle materialize from the late rounds, defying the skeptics because their performance transcends their tools. KW has gotten fleeced in the past. Many times. It comes with the territory. And he's also fleeced others by picking up Danks, Floyd, Thornton, Quentin, and making sure that HE was the guy who Santos would try the "pitching thing" when he put away his dreams of being a position player. I'm not worried that the all-knowing and ever-so-neutral Phil Rogers can find people who think that Kenny got fleeced on this one. Time will tell.

[harfman77]

Look at the part of my post you quoted...I said "they had better be damn sure" about this guy...if that is the case, I am fine with it...but it's hard to understand that when 3/4 of the minor league commentators seem to be saying this guy is just an average prospect.

 

Hey, I'll take their word for it for now since I know nothing about the guy...but all I am saying is they better be right.

 

As for Stewart, I don't get how so many people are so down on the kid. I like his addition to the club, and I think he can be a #3-4 starter or a potential dominant relief arm. And yes, we DO need more guys like him in our system, honestly.

 

I am still pretty high on Stewart as well, he was a rookie this season and took some bullets, but I think he will be fine overall. He was lights out at times and just has to develop more consistency. When I read Molinas scouting report it makes me think of a Greg Maddux type of guy (not saying he is Greg Maddux), not a guy with overpowering stuff, but a guy that beats you by controlling the plate through pitch location.

[kwolf68]

We've seen what teams will offer for relievers with a fraction of the friendliness of Sergio's contract at the trade deadline when they are over a barrel. I do not understand why to trade Santos this soon in a fair-at-best deal unless the Sox know something we don't.

 

 

The meme now is the Blue Jays saw Molina as the 2nd coming of Bob Gibson and didn't ever want to trade him and Santos sucks anyway. Which of course is total hogwash...Most 'experts' see Molina's upside as a good relief pitcher or middle of rotation starter and NOT top of the rotation prospects. Now if he does make it to our 3rd starter that's actually a good thing, but keep in mind that is BEST case scenario and it's also NOT likely to happen (as prospects are really hit or miss, especially those with nothing more than cursory innings in AA).

 

 

[Milkman delivers]

The meme now is the Blue Jays saw Molina as the 2nd coming of Bob Gibson and didn't ever want to trade him and Santos sucks anyway. Which of course is total hogwash...Most 'experts' see Molina's upside as a good relief pitcher or middle of rotation starter and NOT top of the rotation prospects. Now if he does make it to our 3rd starter that's actually a good thing, but keep in mind that is BEST case scenario and it's also NOT likely to happen (as prospects are really hit or miss, especially those with nothing more than cursory innings in AA).

 

No, it's not. I've seen it mentioned that he's as high as a #2. And even then, that's all conjecture. The best case scenario is that he's the greatest pitcher of all time.

[southsideirish71]

I am still pretty high on Stewart as well, he was a rookie this season and took some bullets, but I think he will be fine overall. He was lights out at times and just has to develop more consistency. When I read Molinas scouting report it makes me think of a Greg Maddux type of guy (not saying he is Greg Maddux), not a guy with overpowering stuff, but a guy that beats you by controlling the plate through pitch location.

 

I hate when people use Greg Maddux as an example for control pitchers. I know you tempered it with "he isn't Greg Maddux". An example of a control pitcher is John Tudor or Brad Radke. Greg Maddux is in a league of his own. Sure he had command and control, but everything he threw moved and moved all over the f***ing place. Thats what made Greg Maddux the pitcher he was. It was a two seamer that moved like crazy that he could command and paint the outside corner. It was unhittable. Not picking on you particularly, its an over used example of when we get a pitcher who has control as their main weapon. A Greg Maddux type guy is a control pitcher who has crazy crazy crazy movement.

Edited December 7, 2011 by southsideirish71