Sox likely to be quiet in free agency after Abreu

[LittleHurt05]

Coaching won't help. He has awful instincts. You can't fix that.

 

Between all the posts about WAR and Caufield's TL;DR posts, this thread makes me very sleepy.

 

He looked fine in 2012.

[RockRaines]

Just spent a huge chunk of money. Duh

 

 

However they will be active on the trade market.

[Kyyle23]

I have a feeling that De Aza is good when the team around him is good, and is lazy/looks bad when the team around him is bad. It doesnt excuse it, but he just kind of looks like one of those players to me. In early 2012 he really looked good when they jumped out in front of the central. This season, it just got worse as the sox losing streaks got longer.

[Balta1701]

I have a feeling that De Aza is good when the team around him is good, and is lazy/looks bad when the team around him is bad. It doesnt excuse it, but he just kind of looks like one of those players to me. In early 2012 he really looked good when they jumped out in front of the central. This season, it just got worse as the sox losing streaks got longer.

He was terrible coming out of spring training this year and didn't start to hit until mid-May right? In other words, he was looking very bad before we were all certain the team around him was terrible.

 

Either he knew in spring training he was on an awful team or that's why I pin it on coaching - just like everyone else, he didn't come into the season focused or ready to play at all.

[Kyyle23]

He was terrible coming out of spring training this year and didn't start to hit until mid-May right? In other words, he was looking very bad before we were all certain the team around him was terrible.

 

Either he knew in spring training he was on an awful team or that's why I pin it on coaching - just like everyone else, he didn't come into the season focused or ready to play at all.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...ar=2013&t=b

 

s***ty april/may(but hit 4 HR), good june/july, fell off the table august/september.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...ar=2012&t=b

 

much more consistent in 2012 across the board, but again he started slow. but he finished pretty solid

[JoshPR]

How many games did everyone else cost us just from playing like s*** constantly? His baserunning errors seem like louder mistakes to you, but the fact of the matter is the dude hit better than almost everyone, stole a lot of bases at a solid success rate, and actually played better defense even after his errors than the other inept players that were beside him.

 

How many games did Viciedo/Flowers/Beckham/Keppinger/Phegley/etc. cost us from just getting f***ing out like EVERY time they came to the plate? You don't have to use sabermetrics to come to this conclusion, just look at what happened. I don't know why 4-5 stupid baserunning plays in the midst of a solid season makes him worse than the near constant failure that plagued almost everyone else on the roster.

I agree with you on the rest too. Just in case you wondered...

[Eminor3rd]

I agree with you on the rest too. Just in case you wondered...

 

That's all I'm saying. It's not that De Aza is awesome or irreplaceable, it's just that he is not even close to the biggest problem we have.

[witesoxfan]

I agree with you on the rest too. Just in case you wondered...

 

That's all I'm saying. It's not that De Aza is awesome or irreplaceable, it's just that he is not even close to the biggest problem we have.

 

And the idea of replacing all of those players is absurd. It's simply inefficient cost wise to do so regardless of any other reasoning.

Edited November 1, 2013 by witesoxfan

[SCCWS]

I think Ellsbury is a great fit. Great baserunner/stealer, solid defense , hits for a decent average. Just a heady pro for CF or even LF if the Sox pick up someone like Bourjos in a trade. Saves his legs which are his greatest asset if you stick him in a corner . I can always hope no matter what Merkin writes or Hahn says in public . You sign Ellsbury, trade for Kendrick and Bourjos then the lineup starts looking very solid with good speed and defense and probably with a payroll not any higher than last year if we can avoid giving Konerko any money. Pick up a cheap switch hitting catcher like Brayan Pena to add to the Cuban Connection or Dioner Navarro who would be a pretty reasonable free agent pickup .

 

 

I think Ellsbury is a pipe dream. He already turned down 5/$75 mil. Boras will probably want 6/$120 and after Abreu I doubt the Sox will go that high.

[caulfield12]

No, I totally get you here. You can argue that everyone on the team sucks and so they should all go if possible and you can make a lot of sense -- but this guy is arguing that the Sox need to be spending more money on big free agent signings so the team can be better next year. You don't add a couple nice players and then get rid of of one of your best to offset it, even if he isn't THAT good. There's just no way you can argue that the team should get better NEXT year by losing De Aza at all costs when there are 8 WAY worse players that should obviously be replaced first.

 

 

Very few teams in baseball are going to choose DeAza over Ramirez, Abreu, Viciedo or Avisail Garcia. If money were no object, they might also select Dunn, and some would take Gillaspie as well.

 

Half those teams would rather have Beckham at $4.4 million than DeAza to be a back-up/4th outfielder at the same price.

 

[witesoxfan]

Very few teams in baseball are going to choose DeAza over Ramirez, Abreu, Viciedo or Avisail Garcia. If money were no object, they might also select Dunn, and some would take Gillaspie as well.

 

Half those teams would rather have Beckham at $4.4 million than DeAza to be a back-up/4th outfielder at the same price.

 

I disagree with this notion, especially regarding Dunn, Gillaspie, and Beckham.

[caulfield12]

I disagree with this notion, especially regarding Dunn, Gillaspie, and Beckham.

 

 

If you took salary considerations out of it, I'd guess 15-18 teams would take a risk on Dunn over DeAza.

 

The comment was specifically that there were 8 players WORSE than DeAza. We're not arguing about "value" or ROI or anything like that.

 

 

I'm not going to argue that DeAza wasn't BETTER than Conor overall in 2013 if you take everything into consideration....but who is likely to be the better player in 2014 or 2015 or 2016? That's far from clear.

 

Most would argue both of them should be platoon players.

 

 

Probably, the White Sox are one of 5-7 teams that DeAza and Beckham would both be starters...until Semien pushes out Beckham, they can afford to give him one more season.

 

Same thing with Thompson and DeAza/Viciedo.

 

 

Maybe after the way the Cardinals played down the stretch in the World Series, they would give some serious consideration to DeAza and Ramirez in a package deal...for Wong and Martinez.

Edited November 1, 2013 by caulfield12

[Eminor3rd]

If you took salary considerations out of it, I'd guess 15-18 teams would take a risk on Dunn over DeAza.

 

The comment was specifically that there were 8 players WORSE than DeAza. We're not arguing about "value" or ROI or anything like that.

 

 

I'm not going to argue that DeAza wasn't BETTER than Conor overall in 2013 if you take everything into consideration....but who is likely to be the better player in 2014 or 2015 or 2016? That's far from clear.

 

Most would argue both of them should be platoon players.

 

 

Probably, the White Sox are one of 5-7 teams that DeAza and Beckham would both be starters...until Semien pushes out Beckham, they can afford to give him one more season.

 

Same thing with Thompson and DeAza/Viciedo.

 

 

Maybe after the way the Cardinals played down the stretch in the World Series, they would give some serious consideration to DeAza and Ramirez in a package deal...for Wong and Martinez.

 

Here's how I'd lay it out.

 

Likely worse than De Aza

 

1. Flowers

2. Phegley

3. Dunn

4. Viciedo

5. Jordan Danks

6. Beckham

7. Gillaspie

8. Keppinger

9. L. Garcia

 

Likely better than De Aza

 

1. A. Garcia (hopefully)

2. Ramirez

3. Abreu

 

Who knows

 

1. Semien

2. Konerko?

 

You can argue a couple specific names either way, depending on how you are choosing to value contributions (upside, cost, whatever), the point isn't that there are exactly 8 or 7 or 11 or whatever players worse than De Aza, it's that there are many players that are good bets to contribute less than De Aza next year. Therefore, if you are concerned about winning in 2014, replacing De Aza should NOT be your #1 priority. That is my point.

 

 

[witesoxfan]

What all are we considering here then? I mean, costs do matter at this point, so you can rule Dunn out, and current production matters, so that rules Viciedo out (and possibly/probably Garcia too) for a few teams. The fact that he's an outfielder matters as well.

 

I think Eminor's list is perfect. As of this moment, simply non-tendering or trading De Aza just to be rid of him would be one of the absolute worst things the Sox could do.

[caulfield12]

What all are we considering here then? I mean, costs do matter at this point, so you can rule Dunn out, and current production matters, so that rules Viciedo out (and possibly/probably Garcia too) for a few teams. The fact that he's an outfielder matters as well.

 

I think Eminor's list is perfect. As of this moment, simply non-tendering or trading De Aza just to be rid of him would be one of the absolute worst things the Sox could do.

 

 

Nobody's saying to non-tender him, though.

 

Or Beckham...

 

Obviously they both played big parts on the 2012 team, they're capable of playing on a playoff team, in theory.

 

That said, I'm sure that Hahn won't get back what he wants in return in trade. Probably with Beckham, it has to be another busted prospect, like Dustin Ackley, change of scenery type of trade like the Borchard/Thornton move.

 

If the choice is DeAza at $4.4 million for one year or committing to 3-4 years of Granderson at $12-16 million per season, then it's a no brainer.

 

It would be a LOT better if one of our athletic outfield prospects actually put together a solid season. Even then, Thompson might be the only one capable of playing CF everyday, and then his bat looks like it will end up suspiciously similar to Brian Anderson's.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2013 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

Nobody's saying to non-tender him, though.

 

Or Beckham...

 

Obviously they both played big parts on the 2012 team, they're capable of playing on a playoff team, in theory.

 

That said, I'm sure that Hahn won't get back what he wants in return in trade. Probably with Beckham, it has to be another busted prospect, like Dustin Ackley, change of scenery type of trade like the Borchard/Thornton move.

 

Priority number 1 is to get rid of De Aza sure as hell seems like the Sox need to get rid of De Aza no matter what.

 

 

[caulfield12]

Priority number 1 is to get rid of De Aza sure as hell seems like the Sox need to get rid of De Aza no matter what.

 

 

Priority number 1 has to be the catching position now. (The DeAza hate is mostly an emotional reaction or scapegoating thing.)

 

Just watching the Cardinals and Red Sox this past series, it's clear what having a Top 5-10 catcher/combination will do for you.

 

 

Molina's the best catcher in the majors and possibly the NL MVP. Salty/Ross were very solid. Everything on the entire field starts with that position, and it's testament to AJ's influence they only had one season in the past decade where they were at 90 losses (2007), and that was seemingly an anomaly.

 

3B would be second (most still see Semien long-term at 2B or possibly SS)...then you could argue between 2B, LF/CF, replacing Alexei Ramirez and the bullpen. Somewhere in there, you need to add more LH hitting/defensive ability/speed.

Edited November 1, 2013 by caulfield12

[witesoxfan]

Catcher is first, second, and third on that list. If they don't come up with some sort of constituency plan at catcher this offseason, even with Abreu signed, it's a complete failure. You can't count on Flowers or Phegley. If nothing else, bring another catching prospect into the system, even if it means trading Santiago or even Quintana for one. The system has quite a few infielders right now with quite a few of them likely capable of covering 3B if necessary. They have 3 capable outfielders and could look to bring in more. For all intents and purposes, they have zilch for catchers right now.

[Balta1701]

Catcher is first, second, and third on that list. If they don't come up with some sort of constituency plan at catcher this offseason, even with Abreu signed, it's a complete failure. You can't count on Flowers or Phegley. If nothing else, bring another catching prospect into the system, even if it means trading Santiago or even Quintana for one. The system has quite a few infielders right now with quite a few of them likely capable of covering 3B if necessary. They have 3 capable outfielders and could look to bring in more. For all intents and purposes, they have zilch for catchers right now.

Can you name any options who make sense?

[GGajewski18]

Can you name any options who make sense?

 

Zunino or buy low on Jesus Montero from the Mariners? D'Arnaud from the Mets? Those are all I can think of. But I don't see them giving them up

[witesoxfan]

Can you name any options who make sense?

 

Gary Sanchez from the Yankees comes to mind immediately of those ranked in the top 100 pre-season (the Mariners nor Mets will trade Zunino/D'Arnaud). Other guys like Tony Sanchez and Jason Castro make some semblance of sense as well, though Castro is less prospect territory and more "turning into a stud" territory. That is one guy I would give Quintana up for and not think twice.

 

That route is less than optimal, but it's an option.

[witesoxfan]

Zunino or buy low on Jesus Montero from the Mariners? D'Arnaud from the Mets? Those are all I can think of. But I don't see them giving them up

 

I don't see Montero as a guy that can stick at catcher. I still have no problem buying low on him.

[Eminor3rd]

Zunino or buy low on Jesus Montero from the Mariners? D'Arnaud from the Mets? Those are all I can think of. But I don't see them giving them up

 

No reason at all Zunino would be available, and I don't think there's anyone left that still thinks Montero is a C.

[Eminor3rd]

Gary Sanchez from the Yankees comes to mind immediately of those ranked in the top 100 pre-season (the Mariners nor Mets will trade Zunino/D'Arnaud). Other guys like Tony Sanchez and Jason Castro make some semblance of sense as well, though Castro is less prospect territory and more "turning into a stud" territory. That is one guy I would give Quintana up for and not think twice.

 

That route is less than optimal, but it's an option.

 

I was hoping we could snatch Blake Swihart in the Peavy deal. But I don't think we have anyone the Red Sox want now.

[hi8is]

Franklyn Guteriez on the cheap, anyone?