caulfield12 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 QUOTE (LDF @ Sep 16, 2014 -> 05:45 AM) ummm you know he does have a point. if he does get hurt, the sox still has control. dealing with the surgery, the meds can repair and thicken the UCL ligament, (I read that it can be done) if he doesn't get hurt, the sox will have a great pitcher. interesting gamble. the astros argued a repair wouldnt be effective precisely because of the smaller size...and certainly inserting a bigger presumably stronger replacement wouldhave detrimental consequences to his mechanics and likely lead to further injury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 The ligament itself is replaced. If all of his ligaments and tendons are that small, you'd have a problem, but until you know that for sure, you have to assume surgery would be successful. I don't know that there's any actual risk involved immediately either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 16, 2014 -> 03:16 PM) the astros argued a repair wouldnt be effective precisely because of the smaller size...and certainly inserting a bigger presumably stronger replacement wouldhave detrimental consequences to his mechanics and likely lead to further injury Neither Aiken or the Astros can prove the smaller UCL will or will not hold up, only time will tell the tale on that. As far as a larger UCL being detrimental to mechanics, that's the Astros guessing in an effort to support their half of the issue. In all the stuff I've read about this never once has another situation like this been brought up which makes this particular situation unique. Its a first so there's no way for the Astros to know if a larger UCL will affect Aiken's mechanics. The Astros are making a huge assumption in an effort to save millions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Sep 16, 2014 -> 09:58 PM) Neither Aiken or the Astros can prove the smaller UCL will or will not hold up, only time will tell the tale on that. As far as a larger UCL being detrimental to mechanics, that's the Astros guessing in an effort to support their half of the issue. In all the stuff I've read about this never once has another situation like this been brought up which makes this particular situation unique. Its a first so there's no way for the Astros to know if a larger UCL will affect Aiken's mechanics. The Astros are making a huge assumption in an effort to save millions. really, I would have sworn that there has to be another situation like this. I learn something new. thanks let me ask this question, wouldn't it seem as if there was surgery, wouldn't the doctors do something like to improve the shoulder by making it thicker or something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 16, 2014 Share Posted September 16, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 16, 2014 -> 09:25 PM) The ligament itself is replaced. If all of his ligaments and tendons are that small, you'd have a problem, but until you know that for sure, you have to assume surgery would be successful. I don't know that there's any actual risk involved immediately either. I know this is stupid, but I just got this vision of the 6 million day man theme song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 QUOTE (LDF @ Sep 16, 2014 -> 04:37 PM) really, I would have sworn that there has to be another situation like this. I learn something new. thanks let me ask this question, wouldn't it seem as if there was surgery, wouldn't the doctors do something like to improve the shoulder by making it thicker or something? The UCL is in the elbow and that's where the concern is over Aiken. The shoulder is a completely different ball game and if memory serves, that's labrum territory from what I recall from Mike Sirotka. I think the Jays are still stinking over that trade. The board member that goes by the name of PTAC would be the person to ask as he seems to know ALOT about things of this nature. Dude knows his s***! I'm hoping he will weigh in at some point about Aiken's UCL and enlighten us all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 20, 2014 -> 01:32 PM) * “No baseball player will have a normal MRI,” Dines said. “If someone has a congenitally small ulnar collateral ligament, even if they tear it and you reconstruct it, you can always make it bigger. And it’s almost a foregone conclusion these days that a young pitcher who throws in the upper 90s will at some point have a reconstruction anyway. “When I read the reports about Aiken, I thought that there might be some concern about the bony anatomy where the ligament attaches, perhaps the medial epicondyle. If that is damaged or abnormal, you’re left with less bone there to reconstruct the ligament, and that can mean that a reconstruction won’t always work. They must have thought, for some reason, that a future reconstruction would not take.” PTAC? from si.com story on Aiken ptac's response The statement is accurate for the reconstruction. You need to drill a substantial size hole in the medial condyle (not really the epicondyle but that's semantics, it's the same area). the tendon that is used to replace the ligament is much larger than the original so there needs to be room with which to work. However, I have never been involved in a case where the condyle was too small. It's conceivable, I guess, but I've never seen nor heard of it. Maybe in a case where he had "little leaguer's elbow"as a kid where there is damage to the growth plate on the medial side of the elbow.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 04:54 AM) The UCL is in the elbow and that's where the concern is over Aiken. The shoulder is a completely different ball game and if memory serves, that's labrum territory from what I recall from Mike Sirotka. I think the Jays are still stinking over that trade. The board member that goes by the name of PTAC would be the person to ask as he seems to know ALOT about things of this nature. Dude knows his s***! I'm hoping he will weigh in at some point about Aiken's UCL and enlighten us all. I screwed up, I really meant the elbow. sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 QUOTE (LDF @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 01:59 AM) I screwed up, I really meant the elbow. sorry. It's OK, so did I. The board members name is ptatc, I forgot a t. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 01:45 AM) QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Aug 20, 2014 -> 01:32 PM) * “No baseball player will have a normal MRI,” Dines said. “If someone has a congenitally small ulnar collateral ligament, even if they tear it and you reconstruct it, you can always make it bigger. And it’s almost a foregone conclusion these days that a young pitcher who throws in the upper 90s will at some point have a reconstruction anyway. “When I read the reports about Aiken, I thought that there might be some concern about the bony anatomy where the ligament attaches, perhaps the medial epicondyle. If that is damaged or abnormal, you’re left with less bone there to reconstruct the ligament, and that can mean that a reconstruction won’t always work. They must have thought, for some reason, that a future reconstruction would not take.” PTAC? from si.com story on Aiken ptac's response The statement is accurate for the reconstruction. You need to drill a substantial size hole in the medial condyle (not really the epicondyle but that's semantics, it's the same area). the tendon that is used to replace the ligament is much larger than the original so there needs to be room with which to work. However, I have never been involved in a case where the condyle was too small. It's conceivable, I guess, but I've never seen nor heard of it. Maybe in a case where he had "little leaguer's elbow"as a kid where there is damage to the growth plate on the medial side of the elbow.. The quote from the SI article shows they are speculating and clearly have not seen the medicals so I don't see the point. Everything I've stumbled across only talks about the ligament being undersized and nothing but speculation about the bone itself. Now, if it comes out that the bone is undersized as well then I would be more than willing to pass on Aiken based on Ptatc's response which makes sense with how he explained it. Until more is known, at this point I would still take a chance on Aiken if the price is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 09:52 AM) The quote from the SI article shows they are speculating and clearly have not seen the medicals so I don't see the point. Everything I've stumbled across only talks about the ligament being undersized and nothing but speculation about the bone itself. Now, if it comes out that the bone is undersized as well then I would be more than willing to pass on Aiken based on Ptatc's response which makes sense with how he explained it. Until more is known, at this point I would still take a chance on Aiken if the price is right. Everyone would. You are talking about a kid that would get upwards of $25-$30 million if he went on the open market right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 10:05 AM) Everyone would. You are talking about a kid that would get upwards of $25-$30 million if he went on the open market right now. No, not everyone would and that's why its being discussed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 10:23 AM) No, not everyone would and that's why its being discussed. I think almost every team in the league would be willing to take a chance on him, including the Astros themselves. If you believe the reports, it seemed they re-thought it and re-offered the initial $6.5 million guarantee to Aiken that the two had originally come to, but Close and Aiken were both very upset about how the Astros handled the situation and no longer wanted to deal with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 10:32 AM) I think almost every team in the league would be willing to take a chance on him, including the Astros themselves. If you believe the reports, it seemed they re-thought it and re-offered the initial $6.5 million guarantee to Aiken that the two had originally come to, but Close and Aiken were both very upset about how the Astros handled the situation and no longer wanted to deal with them. Just to clarify. Initially the question was asked if any of us board members would take a chance on drafting Aiken if he fell to the Sox in the 2015 draft, which is what the discussion has been about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 10:41 AM) Just to clarify. Initially the question was asked if any of us board members would take a chance on drafting Aiken if he fell to the Sox in the 2015 draft, which is what the discussion has been about. And to that, I respond that I'd have no problem with the Sox drafting him. He's got ace upside and he's fairly polished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 QUOTE (witesoxfan @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 10:32 AM) I think almost every team in the league would be willing to take a chance on him, including the Astros themselves. If you believe the reports, it seemed they re-thought it and re-offered the initial $6.5 million guarantee to Aiken that the two had originally come to, but Close and Aiken were both very upset about how the Astros handled the situation and no longer wanted to deal with them. I have only seen that they offered $5 million, not $6.5. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Y2Jimmy0 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 12:53 PM) I have only seen that they offered $5 million, not $6.5. They had a handshake deal of $6.5 million at draft time. That's $1.5 million under slot and the reason why they took Aiken. Then they did the physical, found the "small ligament" and decided that they'd only offer $5 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 17, 2014 Share Posted September 17, 2014 QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 01:48 PM) They had a handshake deal of $6.5 million at draft time. That's $1.5 million under slot and the reason why they took Aiken. Then they did the physical, found the "small ligament" and decided that they'd only offer $5 million. Yeah I am talking about after the testing, not before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted September 17, 2014 Author Share Posted September 17, 2014 With last night's win.... The Sox still have the 9th pick, are 10.5 GB of the #1 pick, are 5 GB of the #5 pick, and are only 1.5 games ahead of the Reds/Padres for a protected pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 (Y2JImmy0 @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 10:05 AM) * Everyone would. You are talking about a kid that would get upwards of $25-$30 million if he went on the open market right now. for me, I don't think that the sox brass is going to look to invest 25 - 30 mil for 1 player. I think that they may think 25 mil can be put to use on 2 players with some left over. that is just me taking this for a walk. QUOTE (StRoostifer @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 04:23 PM) No, not everyone would what do you think, sp or rp is the most dire need? lets just discuss pitching for now. ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 09:13 PM) With last night's win.... The Sox still have the 9th pick, are 10.5 GB of the #1 pick, are 5 GB of the #5 pick, and are only 1.5 games ahead of the Reds/Padres for a protected pick. for me, I am having fun, fun to make a uneventful season easy to deal with. peace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackSox13 Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 QUOTE (LDF @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 09:20 PM) what do you think, sp or rp is the most dire need? lets just discuss pitching for now. ok Always a starter. Most relievers were starters at one point anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiliIrishHammock24 Posted September 18, 2014 Author Share Posted September 18, 2014 With the Sox loss tonight, we gain a game on.... Rockies, Cubs, Twins, Rangers, Phillies Sox still have the 9th pick, are now 9.5 GB of the #1 pick, are 4 GB of the #5 pick, and are now 2.5 games ahead of the Padres for a protected pick. Sox are 3 GB of the #6 Red Sox, 2 GB of the #7 Astros, and 1 GB of the #8 Cubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 QUOTE (Chilihead90 @ Sep 17, 2014 -> 10:50 PM) With the Sox loss tonight, we gain a game on.... Rockies, Cubs, Twins, Rangers, Phillies Sox still have the 9th pick, are now 9.5 GB of the #1 pick, are 4 GB of the #5 pick, and are now 2.5 games ahead of the Padres for a protected pick. Sox are 3 GB of the #6 Red Sox, 2 GB of the #7 Astros, and 1 GB of the #8 Cubs. It certainly is odd to remember to root for the Red Sox, Astros, AND Cubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flavum Posted September 18, 2014 Share Posted September 18, 2014 3-6 the next 9, and hope the last day of the season doesn't matter. That's what I'd like to see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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