Hahn Confirms: Ventura back for 2016

[Dick Allen]

Not denying that in a vacuum it's hard to quantify what a manager brings. But when you take everything into consideration from the lack of experience when he was hired, and sloppy, under-performing teams over the last few years, the right baseball move would have to make a change. And it has nothing to do with appeasing fans. 29 other teams probably would have made a change today because that's how it goes.

Or you take a new approach, get good players, and watch the guy suddenly become a genius.

 

If Robin's first 2 years were 61-101, and followed that up with 66-96, should he and would most teams have dumped him, and never given him another job?

 

 

That is what Joe Maddon put up with crappy players.

 

 

If anything the old adage, you can't fire all the players, so you fire the manager is something the White Sox are not doing. That they are going to be firing players, is something that should be applauded. It's new thinking. If the players are crappy, the team will be crappy, no matter who is making out the line up card.

[Eminor3rd]

Not denying that in a vacuum it's hard to quantify what a manager brings. But when you take everything into consideration from the lack of experience when he was hired, and sloppy, under-performing teams over the last few years, the right baseball move would have to make a change. And it has nothing to do with appeasing fans. 29 other teams probably would have made a change today because that's how it goes.

 

The bolded is exactly what I mean. "That's how it goes." It's just a way to kick the can down the road. Would you be happy if the Sox ran out the same team under a different manager in 2016?

[southsider2k5]

The bolded is exactly what I mean. "That's how it goes." It's just a way to kick the can down the road. Would you be happy if the Sox ran out the same team under a different manager in 2016?

 

I do agree with the idea that firing the manager would have made it much easier to bring back the same squad. Now the pressure rests squarely on Rick Hahn's shoulders because he has made the clear statement that the manager was not the problem. If it wasn't the manager, then it was the players.

 

[flavum]

The bolded is exactly what I mean. "That's how it goes." It's just a way to kick the can down the road. Would you be happy if the Sox ran out the same team under a different manager in 2016?

 

If the option is- same team with Ventura, or same team with a new manager that they carefully interviewed and made a more informed decision, yes I would take a new manager.

[Eminor3rd]

I do agree with the idea that firing the manager would have made it much easier to bring back the same squad. Now the pressure rests squarely on Rick Hahn's shoulders because he has made the clear statement that the manager was not the problem. If it wasn't the manager, then it was the players.

 

Right -- if nothing changes at this point, Rick Hahn will have some proverbial "splaining" to do.

 

 

If the option is- same team with Ventura, or same team with a new manager that they carefully interviewed and made a more informed decision, yes I would take a new manager.

 

Sure, but that's the point: "same team" should not be in the cards. That's the variable we should be focused on. SS2k5 make a good point that by retaining RV, Hahn is signalling that the players need to change. He's placed the flashlight on the correct problem, now he has to step up and fix it.

[flavum]

Sure, but that's the point: "same team" should not be in the cards. That's the variable we should be focused on. SS2k5 make a good point that by retaining RV, Hahn is signalling that the players need to change. He's placed the flashlight on the correct problem, now he has to step up and fix it.

 

Or Hahn wanted to make a change, and Kenny and/or Jerry wouldn't let him. We don't know.

 

Look, what's done is done now. He's coming back, they'll make some moves, and they'll try one last time. I wish them luck. But 99% of the time, managers in his position would be gone now. And rightly so.

[LDF]

Or Hahn wanted to make a change, and Kenny and/or Jerry wouldn't let him. We don't know.

 

Look, what's done is done now. He's coming back, they'll make some moves, and they'll try one last time. I wish them luck. But 99% of the time, managers in his position would be gone now. And rightly so.

 

excellent.

 

but the whole thing is, all we, the fans have to look at is last yr's results and failed trade deadline fiasco....

 

we do not what will be in store when the season to starts to sign fa's and make trades.

 

it is going to be interesting.

[LVSoxFan]

Everybody keeps focusing on just Ventura--the ALL need to go: him, Hahn and ESPECIALLY KW.

 

Time to clean house. Unless you want to spend another 10 years at the bottom of the AL central. But hey, 2005 was great, wasn't it?

[cabiness42]

No manager is bad enough to be the reason you miss the playoffs by 10 games.

[Dick Allen]

Everybody keeps focusing on just Ventura--the ALL need to go: him, Hahn and ESPECIALLY KW.

 

Time to clean house. Unless you want to spend another 10 years at the bottom of the AL central. But hey, 2005 was great, wasn't it?

Actually, 2005 was great. Yes.

[flavum]

I think some people take the side of ownership/management and what happens, or doesn't happen in this case, to make themselves feel like they're on the right side of things.

 

Some things in baseball happen that can't be explained. We'll never know how this team would have played under a different manager and coaching staff. What I do know is the teams under Ventura have played sloppy, and under-perfomed for their expectations...not ours.

[captain54]

I think some people take the side of ownership/management and what happens, or doesn't happen in this case, to make themselves feel like they're on the right side of things.

 

Some things in baseball happen that can't be explained. We'll never know how this team would have played under a different manager and coaching staff. What I do know is the teams under Ventura have played sloppy, and under-perfomed for their expectations...not ours.

 

Two teams. #1. Nationals. #2 white Sox

 

Teams #1 and #2 played below expectations.

Team #1 decimated by injuries, but finishes above .500. Team #2 healthy all year, finishes below .500

#1 and #2 played crappy defense

 

Team #1 fires their manager. #2 retains their manager

 

I'm not saying RV should or shouldn't have been let go.

 

However, the organization loses all credibility when there is no standard for accountability vs performance. The notion that they are trying to do the best they can to put a winner on the field, holds no water

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Two teams. #1. Nationals. #2 white Sox

 

Teams #1 and #2 played below expectations.

Team #1 decimated by injuries, but finishes above .500. Team #2 healthy all year, finishes below .500

#1 and #2 played crappy defense

 

Team #1 fires their manager. #2 retains their manager

 

I'm not saying RV should or shouldn't have been let go.

 

However, the organization loses all credibility when there is no standard for accountability vs performance. The notion that they are trying to do the best they can to put a winner on the field, holds no water

If the White Sox ship a bunch of players out, they are showing more accountability than firing a guy who makes out a line up card. Hahn has already said, the roster is on him. Accountability. If they don't make changes, you have a point, but I find that highly unlikely.

[southsider2k5]

Two teams. #1. Nationals. #2 white Sox

 

Teams #1 and #2 played below expectations.

Team #1 decimated by injuries, but finishes above .500. Team #2 healthy all year, finishes below .500

#1 and #2 played crappy defense

 

Team #1 fires their manager. #2 retains their manager

 

I'm not saying RV should or shouldn't have been let go.

 

However, the organization loses all credibility when there is no standard for accountability vs performance. The notion that they are trying to do the best they can to put a winner on the field, holds no water

 

Team #1 is looking at hiring a former player with no managerial experience.

[Thad Bosley]

If the White Sox ship a bunch of players out, they are showing more accountability than firing a guy who makes out a line up card. Hahn has already said, the roster is on him. Accountability. If they don't make changes, you have a point, but I find that highly unlikely.

In 2013 Hahn said the roster was on him, then he made changes, and then 2014 happened. In 2014, Hahn said the roster was on him, then he made changes, and then 2015 happened. Now he says once again the roster is on him, and we of course can expect changes of some sort, and then we'll see how 2016 goes. Let's just hope he gets a whole lot better at the "making changes" aspect of things, so that this time next year instead of griping about Ventura, we are talking about postseason pitching match-ups and what not!

[LDF]

Two teams. #1. Nationals. #2 white Sox

 

Teams #1 and #2 played below expectations.

Team #1 decimated by injuries, but finishes above .500. Team #2 healthy all year, finishes below .500

#1 and #2 played crappy defense

 

Team #1 fires their manager. #2 retains their manager

 

I'm not saying RV should or shouldn't have been let go.

 

However, the organization loses all credibility when there is no standard for accountability vs performance. The notion that they are trying to do the best they can to put a winner on the field, holds no water

 

typical for the SOP of the white sox ownership .....

 

i put all the blame on the owners.... the buck starts and ends with them.

[daggins]

Team 1 / Team 2 overlooks a lot of differences between the two clubs, such as payroll, expectations, clubhouse chemistry, and managerial demeanor.

 

[LVSoxFan]

We can sit here all day and say it's the players, it's the players. OK, so if that is the sole reason--who picks the players? We're right back where we started.

 

Insanity as defined by Colbert: changing nothing and then pretending things will change.

 

KW caught lightning in a bottle in 2005 and for that we'll always be grateful. He hasn't done it since--not even close--and I'd say 10 years is enough, wouldn't you?

 

The Cubs were able to run that organization around in, what, four years or so? Hawks even less than that. But they made dramatic changes.

 

We won't even fire our manager FFS.

[LDF]

We can sit here all day and say it's the players, it's the players. OK, so if that is the sole reason--who picks the players? We're right back where we started.

 

Insanity as defined by Colbert: changing nothing and then pretending things will change.

 

KW caught lightning in a bottle in 2005 and for that we'll always be grateful. He hasn't done it since--not even close--and I'd say 10 years is enough, wouldn't you?

 

The Cubs were able to run that organization around in, what, four years or so? Hawks even less than that. But they made dramatic changes.

 

We won't even fire our manager FFS.

 

and the northsiders have did wonders in their marketing to bring in over 2.5 mil fans a yr since 2005.

[Chicago White Sox]

MLB teams use coaching firings as misdirections. They fire your manager to appease the mob, despite the fact that there's tons of evidence -- observational, anecdotal, sabermetric, and otherwise -- that suggests that the manager has very little, if anything, to do with how well the team performs.

 

Why are you all playing into this? If you want to hold the White Sox accountable for losing, do it by asking why we have Avisail Garcia. Do it by pointing out that there were signs that Adam LaRoche or Alexei Ramirez would fall off a cliff. The players are the ones that are failing. Changing managers will do nothing to help your team, so stop letting the media and PR department "satisfy" you with manager-personnel decisions.

Mind sharing this evidence? Would be interested in reading up on this.

[Eminor3rd]

Mind sharing this evidence? Would be interested in reading up on this.

 

Just Google. Well, you may have to buy some books, come to think of it. There was a big sabermetric push into understanding the effect of managers the mid-2000's, much of which was published in anthologies like Baseball Between the Numbers and The Book (both haev done a great job of not letting their contents leak to the internet). I saw a study that showed an incredibly strong correlation in Manager of the Year Voting -- it's essentially always the manager of the team that exceeded expectations the most, no matter what, indicating that we have no real criteria other than assuming something magical must have happened. Joe Torre was awful for much longer than he was legendary. So was Tony La Russa. So was (is?) Terry Francona. Joe Maddon is great when his top prospects turn into stars, but very bad when his top prospects bust -- and they've done both under him, suggesting that he just may not be the cause. Studies have shown that "good team" is an excellent predictor of "good manager," but "good manager" is not a statistically significant way to predict a "good team." This gels nicely with the fact that one of those quoted phrases can be measured objectively, but the other cannot.

 

Anyway, I don't have a reading list to link to, sorry

Edited October 5, 2015 by Eminor3rd

[captain54]

. Accountability. If they don't make changes, you have a point, but I find that highly unlikely.

 

You aren't really addressing the real issue here…

 

As the Sox drift further away from their last winning season, and even further away from their last playoff appearance. the fans, season ticket holders, etc.. are left scratching their heads and saying, more or less..

 

"fine and dandy there are roster changes made, but the same people, for a while now, are responsible for making those roster changes, and the same field manager is responsible for squeezing, collectively.. the whole recipe into a winner. it doesn't add up"

 

So in essence, you are holding players accountable for sub par performances by shipping them out.. Why isn't the same standard held for managerial or front office personnel…?

 

Bottom line…good luck convincing the fans that offseason moves in 2016 are gonna come out any differently than previous disappointing years.. Reinsdorf and Co has simply lowered the standard of accountability vs performance in the organization...

[Dick Allen]

Just Google. Well, you may have to buy some books, come to think of it. There was a big sabermetric push into understanding the effect of managers the mid-2000's, much of which was published in anthologies like Baseball Between the Numbers and The Book. I saw a study that showed an incredibly strong correlation in Manager of the Year Voting -- it's essentially always the manager of the team that exceeded expectations the most, no matter what, indicating that we have no real criteria other than assuming something magical must have happened. Joe Torre was awful for much longer than he was legendary. So was Tony La Russa. So was (is?) Terry Francona. Joe Maddon is great when his top prospects turn into stars, but very bad when his top prospects bust -- and they've done both under him, suggesting that he just may not be the cause. Studies have shown that "good team" is an excellent predictor of "good manager," but "good manager" is not a statistically significant way to predict a "good team." The gels nicely with the fact that one of those quoted phrases can be measured objectively, but the other cannot.

 

Anyway, I don't have a reading list to link to, sorry

Just look at Jim Leyland's career. His first 4 years were very similar to Robin's. Then his players developed, they were great for a few year, became free agents, Leyland starts losing. Goes to the Marlins, they have good players they win 92 games, they sell everyone off, the next year they lose 108. Goes to Colorado, they lose 90, goes to Detroit, and he's good again.

[SCCWS]

But the question would be why would Theo have even hired Francona after the 4 year disaster in Philly? We have read here, no one would ever hire Robin, look at his record.

 

Francona with crappy players is a dumb ass.

 

Francona with Damon, and Papi, and Manny, and Youk in the line up and Pedro on the mound , is a genius.

 

 

Curt Shilling had a big say in it. He played for Francona in Philly and the Red Sox wanted shilling to come to Boston.

[Saufley]

Team #1 is looking at hiring a former player with no managerial experience.

 

Team #1 can have our manager. He has experience.