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Renteria to Replace Ventura

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QUOTE (shipps @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 11:34 AM)
Hahn says that they absolutely under achieved this year.

 

They dont think there is a problem with this team.

 

I mean, there were multiple clubhouse incidents, players openly questioning the teams desire, etc. If they dont think their is a problem, maybe they should get some outside consultation on how they actually look.

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If the free agent pool was deeper, then there would be no question that they'd go for it again, but it's just so shallow that I'm currently sitting about 50/50 about whether they will sell off or not. Who would we even buy?

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QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 10:43 AM)
If the free agent pool was deeper, then there would be no question that they'd go for it again, but it's just so shallow that I'm currently sitting about 50/50 about whether they will sell off or not. Who would we even buy?

 

Reddick and Cespedes (assuming he opts out) would be worth looking at. The former might be affordable, while the latter may not. Then again, JR found a way to afford Albert Belle.

 

They may go for it simply because this is their last chance with Frazier and Melky. Once they lose those two, their offense will go kaput.

 

If I'm JR and I'm making one last push, I'd feel inclined to try to add now and see how things shake out by July. I don't see the downside in waiting until July instead of January to sell off and rebuild.

 

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QUOTE (TheTruth05 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 11:41 AM)
Oh i thought they might have gotten all those questions out the way when he was hired as bench coach a year ago and asked throughout the season a bunch of times.

 

He wasn't in the manager's seat a year ago though.

Edited by soxfan2014

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QUOTE (shipps @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 10:34 AM)
Hahn says that they absolutely under achieved this year.

 

They dont think there is a problem with this team.

The team that after the hot start over the first 33 games, played the last 129 like a team that loses 100 games a year? No problem with this team? GMAFB

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 09:48 AM)
... I don't see the downside in waiting until July instead of January to sell off and rebuild.

People have been saying that since 2013... Almost like clockwork. Then, in July... It's, "we can wait until the offseason to sell."

 

That cycle needs to just stop with some definitive action... Finally.

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QUOTE (hi8is @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 10:55 AM)
People have been saying that since 2013... Almost like clockwork. Then, in July... It's, "we can wait until the offseason to sell."

 

That cycle needs to just stop with some definitive action... Finally.

 

Except that Frazier and Melky both hit free agency next winter, and the Sox cannot legitimately "go for it" without those two. So there is a compelling reason to either sh*t or get off the pot this year.

 

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Adding Reddick (overpaying in the process) is not going to cut it with the need to find a DH, 2B and catcher.

 

You live with Lawrie/Saladino, you still have two huge line-up holes and any improvement you get from Abreu/Frazier will probably be offset from falloffs for Cabrera and Eaton.

 

Looking at those AL East lineups, Rangers or even the Tigers/Indians, their 6th or 7th hitters would be 2nd or 3rd on the Sox.

 

Unless Rodon, Fulmer and Burdi set the world on fire and they are willing to eat Shields' contract as well as adding another quality arm in the pen, they're a .500 team, and that's without injuries.

 

Finally, Robertson has underperformed expectations and doesn't look likely to be on an improving track, especially when you consider the brutal nature of that schedule in April and May (a lot of damage against Robbie, Sale and Q coming from fellow AL Central teams.)

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QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 11:05 AM)
Adding Reddick (overpaying in the process) is not going to cut it with the need to find a DH, 2B and catcher.

 

Lawrie is a 1-2 bWAR player and there's no real need to replace him. They need a DH, an OF, and a veteran C (e.g., re-signing Avila).

 

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Now that it's official I really like the fact that the Sox have finally hired a guy who had managed before at the major league level. I think that's important. And he took a Cubs team that was trying to tank and they had a winning record after the All Star break if I remember correctly.

 

What I don't like is that the Sox did not conduct a real search, it's clear they had already decided on Renteria weeks ago. Waiting a week or 10 days, you never know who might become available. I also think that even though he has only been there a short time, I don't like the fact that the Sox yet again, stayed in the "family"...no outsiders permitted. What they desperately need are outside viewpoints, fresh looks at the issues facing them.

 

And of course will Renteria be allowed to pick his own coaches? Probably not all of them.

 

We'll see what the off season brings.

 

Overall I think Renteria is an improvement over Ventura but not as much as I was hoping for.

 

Mark

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QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 12:26 PM)
Now that it's official I really like the fact that the Sox have finally hired a guy who had managed before at the major league level. I think that's important. And he took a Cubs team that was trying to tank and they had a winning record after the All Star break if I remember correctly.

 

What I don't like is that the Sox did not conduct a real search, it's clear they had already decided on Renteria weeks ago. Waiting a week or 10 days, you never know who might become available. I also think that even though he has only been there a short time, I don't like the fact that the Sox yet again, stayed in the "family"...no outsiders permitted. What they desperately need are outside viewpoints, fresh looks at the issues facing them.

 

And of course will Renteria be allowed to pick his own coaches? Probably not all of them.

 

We'll see what the off season brings.

 

Overall I think Renteria is an improvement over Ventura but not as much as I was hoping for.

 

Mark

Again, how is Renteria "staying in the family", he's been here for months, not years.

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 11:58 AM)
Except that Frazier and Melky both hit free agency next winter, and the Sox cannot legitimately "go for it" without those two. So there is a compelling reason to either sh*t or get off the pot this year.

There's always an excuse, always some reason to justify holding off a rebuild for another date. Again, as Hi8is said, our fans are repeating the same damn lines since 2013.

 

And Frazier and Cabrera's pending FA is not enough reason to justify going for it. If they're selling those two will find reasons (ie, their next contract) to perform well

 

I just don't understand, assuming the entire core will return, how can anyone expect different results? We're not improving through FA and I don't believe trading what's left in our farm system is the right course.

 

It's time to finally sell. And sonce SOOO many people insisted we'd receive top value for Sale and Quintana in the offseason because "more teams are available to bid for them," let's act on it

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 12:58 PM)
Except that Frazier and Melky both hit free agency next winter, and the Sox cannot legitimately "go for it" without those two. So there is a compelling reason to either sh*t or get off the pot this year.

 

But their value is higher this winter than it will be in July and the trade pool is larger in the winter than in July. So waiting till July is a big mistake unless the Sox are contenders next season.

 

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Hahn and KW are beyond lucky they work for the White Sox. If they were apart of any other organization, they would have been fired a long time ago. With that being said-- can you finally cut your losses and rebuild? Not a half-ass 2013-14 mini 'retool' job. I am talking a good 3-4 year rebuilding plan. Let's face it, Renteria really doesn't bring more fans to the stadium, but he does have a track record of working well with young players. The free agent class is weak, no need to sacrifice your 12th pick or anything. You have plenty of assets, start wheeling and dealing. Lets do this the right away. No more patch jobs, odd ball veteran signings etc...

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QUOTE (fathom @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 12:12 PM)
Need a true CF so you can keep Eaton in RF

 

Most definitely agree. I see posts that have Eaton moving back to center when acquiring another outfielder. That is just plain foolish. Adam Eaton is a gold glove caliber right fielder and a mediocre at best center fielder, you don't mess with that.

 

I have no idea how they are going to acquire a legitimate major league center fielder, but if Adam Eaton is your starting center fielder next season I will be greatly disappointed.

 

This probably would of been a disaster, but the times that they started Eaton in center and Avi in right the last couple of months, I think I would of rather that they switched and tried Avi in center and left Eaton in right. The worst that happened would of been a few more losses due to center field defense, but then we might have a protected draft pick. Who knows, the odds are small, but maybe something would of just "clicked" with Avi in center. Seeing the ball better or something. After all, some scout somewhere thought he could play center when we traded for him.

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QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 11:27 AM)
I get the vibe from Hahn that we're selling but all those reports that came out were saying we're looking to make a big free agency splash, so now I'm just confused.

Keep in mind the splash, while from a guy who was very right for a while, is from a guy who has been pretty wrong as well. The Sale incident, KW leaving...

 

But maybe they do both. Trade Sale and/or Q and sign some free agents. I just don't think they would give up the draft pick for anyone who is less than spectacular.

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QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 11:29 AM)
There's always an excuse, always some reason to justify holding off a rebuild for another date. Again, as Hi8is said, our fans are repeating the same damn lines since 2013.

 

And Frazier and Cabrera's pending FA is not enough reason to justify going for it. If they're selling those two will find reasons (ie, their next contract) to perform well

 

I just don't understand, assuming the entire core will return, how can anyone expect different results? We're not improving through FA and I don't believe trading what's left in our farm system is the right course.

 

It's time to finally sell. And sonce SOOO many people insisted we'd receive top value for Sale and Quintana in the offseason because "more teams are available to bid for them," let's act on it

 

If you're going for it in 2017, the idea is that you add this offseason. Obviously, not changing anything and expecting better results is silly. 2017 really is their last chance, though. There's just not enough in free agency or the farm system to replace Frazier and Melky AND improve the the team as it stands now.

 

If the Sox cannot appreciably add this winter, then I agree that they should sell off.

 

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QUOTE (SCCWS @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 11:29 AM)
But their value is higher this winter than it will be in July and the trade pool is larger in the winter than in July. So waiting till July is a big mistake unless the Sox are contenders next season.

 

Not necessarily. It's a smaller market, but the teams that are in the hunt in July get desperate at the deadline and will overpay for guys like Frazier and Melky.

 

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QUOTE (balfanman @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 11:32 AM)
Most definitely agree. I see posts that have Eaton moving back to center when acquiring another outfielder. That is just plain foolish. Adam Eaton is a gold glove caliber right fielder and a mediocre at best center fielder, you don't mess with that.

 

The Sox need OPS more than a Gold Glove CF. And CF who put up a .780 OPS or higher are not easy to find on the FA market.

 

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QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 12:30 PM)
Hahn and KW are beyond lucky they work for the White Sox. If they were apart of any other organization, they would have been fired a long time ago. With that being said-- can you finally cut your losses and rebuild? Not a half-ass 2013-14 mini 'retool' job. I am talking a good 3-4 year rebuilding plan. Let's face it, Renteria really doesn't bring more fans to the stadium, but he does have a track record of working well with young players. The free agent class is weak, no need to sacrifice your 12th pick or anything. You have plenty of assets, start wheeling and dealing. Lets do this the right away. No more patch jobs, odd ball veteran signings etc...

I believe in the sentiment thrown around here that playing safe with roster construction (ie, "going for it", avoiding long term contracts) is the key to job security for Hahn and KW. They're comfortable and not willing to make waves with Uncle Jerry. What's the route more likely to lead to their firing? Three more years of .500 baseball while doing their White Sox special of signing/trading veterans to put around around their core.......or losing (maybe even 90+ games) over the course of three seasons rebuilding? It's a lot of risk for Hahn, especially if it's involving prospects.

 

This offseason, we'll see if Hahn is doing what he should for the future of the team, or just what he needs to keep his job. A rebuild I'd venture to predict is supported by a large percentage of the fanbase. If he does it right and there's talented players coming back, I know we'll accept losing.

Edited by Flash Tizzle

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 12:41 PM)
The Sox need OPS more than a Gold Glove CF. And CF who put up a .780 OPS or higher are not easy to find on the FA market.

 

Almost as hard as a gold glove caliber, good ops right fielder!

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QUOTE (balfanman @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 11:49 AM)
Almost as hard as a gold glove caliber, good ops right fielder!

 

You completely missed my point.

 

The Sox have a more dire need for OPS than defense. It's A LOT easier to do that with a corner OF than another CF. So, as much as I like Eaton in RF, he's most likely going to have to move back to CF for the Sox to get better offensively.

Edited by Black_Jack29

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QUOTE (balfanman @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 01:32 PM)
Most definitely agree. I see posts that have Eaton moving back to center when acquiring another outfielder. That is just plain foolish. Adam Eaton is a gold glove caliber right fielder and a mediocre at best center fielder, you don't mess with that.

 

I have no idea how they are going to acquire a legitimate major league center fielder, but if Adam Eaton is your starting center fielder next season I will be greatly disappointed.

 

This probably would of been a disaster, but the times that they started Eaton in center and Avi in right the last couple of months, I think I would of rather that they switched and tried Avi in center and left Eaton in right. The worst that happened would of been a few more losses due to center field defense, but then we might have a protected draft pick. Who knows, the odds are small, but maybe something would of just "clicked" with Avi in center. Seeing the ball better or something. After all, some scout somewhere thought he could play center when we traded for him.

 

I think Eaton is adequate in CF. It certainly makes sense to keep him in right but if you cannot get a legit CF you may have to move him back to improve the overall offensive balance of the outfield. For example, I don't think you pass on Reddick, if he is a target, because Eaton is in RF.

 

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QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 12:37 PM)
If you're going for it in 2017, the idea is that you add this offseason. Obviously, not changing anything and expecting better results is silly. 2017 really is their last chance, though. There's just not enough in free agency or the farm system to replace Frazier and Melky AND improve the the team as it stands now.

 

If the Sox cannot appreciably add this winter, then I agree that they should sell off.

My first option would be a rebuild. A second option far below that is doing absolytely nothing to the roster. Third would be attempting to trade/sign various players to try and compete. The problem is they can not appreciably add to theor roster this winter without (further) depleting the farm or overspending on a weak FA market

 

As I see it, a rebuild is inevitable and I would not waste one cent trying to improve this team. They'll succeed or fail with what they have.

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