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KnightsOnMintSt

Now that I've had a chance to think about things...

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I'm not as upset about missing out on Manny. Yes, I wish he would've chosen the White Sox, and yes, I was fine with giving him well over $300 million. However, when I really sit back and look at things, I realize one really important thing: Regardless of if we would've signed him or not, most of the success still relies on the how the prospects from the rebuild turn out. 

If guys like Eloy, Robert, Cease, Moncada, Kopech, Lopez, Madrigal, and Collins live up to their hype, then the White Sox will be a good team regardless. Now, would I like to have Machado in the middle of that future lineup, of course. But look at Mike Trout in LA. If I recall correctly, he has never made the playoffs, or he has made the playoffs once, and lost in the ALDS. Now that is absolutely no shot at Trout, more of just a statement on how hard it is to win in baseball, and how many really good players you need to have. 

I know that not all the prospects are going to pan out, but the White Sox have A LOT of options at various positions. Lets say this is the lineup, and their realistic potential:

1. Yoan Moncada (.270 hitter with a .330OPS. Can hit for power and is quick on the base paths).

2. Luis Robert (Otherworldly skill set. True 5-tool player. Can do everything on the field)

3. Jose Abreu  (Consistently one of the better 1B in baseball). 

4. Eloy Jimenez (Arguably the best prospect in baseball. Huge power. Can hit to all fields).

5. Zack Collins (Huge power. Gets on base).

6. Tim Anderson (Showing improvement each year. Very athletic).

7. Luis Gonzalez (Solid power. Good speed. Gets on base).

8. Jake Burger (Big power potential. Could exclusively be a DH).

9. Nick Madrigal (Not a lot of power, but gets on base a ton for guys at the top of the lineup to knock him in).

 

Lets also not forget a couple of things. This would be assuming the White Sox did not add a single free agent by the 2020/2021 season. And I'm not saying it has to be Arenado/Trout/Betts... Just any veteran free agent. And like I mentioned above, not every prospect pans out, but we still have guys like Basabe, Adolfo, Rutherford, Zavala, Sheets, and Walker.

 

Then we get into pitching. Lets say the rotation is:

1. Kopech (Top 10 prospect before getting hurt. Seems like one of the hardest workers in the game).

2. Cease (One of the best pitching prospects in baseball now. Will probably be Top 10 by the time he gets called up).

3. Rodon (When healthy, the stuff is nasty).

4. Lopez (Finished 2018 very strong. Nasty off-speed stuff)

5. Giolito (Top prospect in 2016. Struggled last year, but you can see that he has nasty off-speed pitches).

 

And again, not all these guys will work out, but we still have prospects like Dunning, Hansen, Lambert, Stephens and Medeiros.

And just like the lineup I posted, this is assuming the Sox don't sign one veteran pitcher to add to the staff.

 

Moral of the story, I am bummed that we missed out on Machado just like everyone else, but in baseball, you need more than one guy, no matter who it is. The White Sox have a of depth in the minors, and have a number of guys with ridiculously high ceilings.

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Its not that Machado chose another team-  the problem is in the why.  Our front office is horrible-  and it doesn't need to be restated as it has a million times.  But that ineptitude will eventually screw the rebuild because eventually we will need to get a big time free agent.  Not spending money when they clearly can spend the money-  ticket prices and everything else that goes along with games are going up not down- our payroll remains down.  So eventually we will need to go out and get some big time free agents and our FO continues to prove that they are unable to do so. I guess they could still surprise me and somehow get Harper but the odds of that seem pretty small.  He wants opt outs- we "don't believe" in opt outs.'

I can't wait until JR either sells or dies and at the time hopefully whomever purchases the White Sox doesn't move the team out of Chicago.  We just need new ownership and better baseball people running the show.

 

https://www.southsidesox.com/2019/2/19/18232628/why-todays-comments-from-rick-hahn-and-kenny-williams-are-a-big-deal

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0% chance that is ever a lineup for the Sox. They won't solely rely on guys in house. They will sign guys (definitely not Machado/Harper caliber) and others won't pan out or get moved.

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What you don't realize from your list is why that type of list made Machado or Harper SUCH a perfect acquisition.

There's a lot of guys in this organization who are likely to be at least decent, cheap big league players, but even with major talents it's tough to get true stars. Take Rodon - huge talent, top 20 prospect or so when he was drafted, but he's been a mid-rotation pitcher at best, and you've got him in the middle of your rotation. 

The White Sox will probably get a star or two out of these guys (Eloy). They will almost certainly get a number of decent players out of them, particularly since there is depth. But that does not put you at the level of the Cubs or Astros or Yankees or Red Sox. That does not make a superteam.

The beauty of Harper or Machado was - because there is good depth and a number of youngsters around, we have the money to go after a singularly high level performer. A guy hitting free agency at 26 who, if we plug them into the roster, will take over one position and make that position great. Now we've got that position filled with a great player for years, a great player who should not fall off any time soon, and teamed with the star or two (Eloy) that we develop and a number of decent players...we've got something that could be a great team.

Once we missed on that, it's possible for us to develop several stars, but that is now entirely on our org's scouting and development.

Having that much depth was our way out of having to play the mid-level of the free agent  market. It was our way to avoid signing the next Yu Darvish,  to avoid signing the next Jay Bruce, to avoid signing the next Melky Cabrera, to avoid signing the next Adam LaRoche. We have the depth where we don't need those guys, we have the depth where guys like Pollock or Keuchel are poor fits for us because we have someone to cover those positions cheaply. We can go out, identify one of the top players in baseball, a guy hitting free agency at age 26, and get something truly unique. But we didn't do it.

Now we need this team to be better at player development than they ever have been. 

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Like a few have already stated, it’s not necessarily the result itself, it’s the manner in which it happened. People are far more pissed at the FO than losing out on Machado.

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I think the Sox go after Arenado hard next year, which may be better for the rebuild... 3B hits .290+, 35HR+, 110RBI+, not all the "baggage" 

 

Abreu 1st

Moncada/Madrigal 2nd

Anderson SS

Arenado 3rd

Not a bad infield...

OF - Jimenez, Robert, Basabe, Gonzalez, Rutherford, Adolfo

Lots of youth in the outfield, but tons of potential...

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I've had a chance to think about it, too.

In talking with some friends about this contract, the discussion of Miguel Cabreras contract came up. Which reminded me of none other than Miguel Cabrera. Another PRIME example of an absolute GOLDEN opportunity for the Sox to acquire a generational talent. And why didn't they? Because they didn't want to take on Dontrelle Willis and/or give up more prospects. 

We all knew at the time how big of a deal it was to lose to the Tigers there. KW blowing it off was ridiculous then, still is ridiculous now, and is STILL a part of this organizations LOSER mentality when it comes to doing what it takes to get the best players in MLB. Honestly, fuck the White Sox. Cabrera should have been a White Sox, but they blew it because of dumb ass restrictions. Machado should be a White Sox, but they blew it. Harper, maybe shouldn't be a White Sox but now I am arguing that he definitely SHOULD be a White Sox but the organization will not give into Boras demands because of loser restrictions. All of it, the mentality of losers. 

"All it does is put them in a better position to compete with us".

Yeah fucking right KW. It put the Tigers in the position to win several divisional titles, go to a World Series and shit on the Sox year after year while the Sox began their epic foray into being mired in mediocrity. Fuck off. 

 

Edited by South Sider
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2 minutes ago, Ditka19861 said:

I think the Sox go after Arenado hard next year, which may be better for the rebuild... 3B hits .290+, 35HR+, 110RBI+, not all the "baggage" 

 

Abreu 1st

Moncada/Madrigal 2nd

Anderson SS

Arenado 3rd

Not a bad infield...

OF - Jimenez, Robert, Basabe, Gonzalez, Rutherford, Adolfo

Lots of youth in the outfield, but tons of potential...

Coors factor turns people off.

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1 hour ago, KnightsOnMintSt said:

I'm not as upset about missing out on Manny. Yes, I wish he would've chosen the White Sox, and yes, I was fine with giving him well over $300 million. However, when I really sit back and look at things, I realize one really important thing: Regardless of if we would've signed him or not, most of the success still relies on the how the prospects from the rebuild turn out. 

If guys like Eloy, Robert, Cease, Moncada, Kopech, Lopez, Madrigal, and Collins live up to their hype, then the White Sox will be a good team regardless. Now, would I like to have Machado in the middle of that future lineup, of course. But look at Mike Trout in LA. If I recall correctly, he has never made the playoffs, or he has made the playoffs once, and lost in the ALDS. Now that is absolutely no shot at Trout, more of just a statement on how hard it is to win in baseball, and how many really good players you need to have. 

I know that not all the prospects are going to pan out, but the White Sox have A LOT of options at various positions. Lets say this is the lineup, and their realistic potential:

1. Yoan Moncada (.270 hitter with a .330OPS. Can hit for power and is quick on the base paths).

2. Luis Robert (Otherworldly skill set. True 5-tool player. Can do everything on the field)

3. Jose Abreu  (Consistently one of the better 1B in baseball). 

4. Eloy Jimenez (Arguably the best prospect in baseball. Huge power. Can hit to all fields).

5. Zack Collins (Huge power. Gets on base).

6. Tim Anderson (Showing improvement each year. Very athletic).

7. Luis Gonzalez (Solid power. Good speed. Gets on base).

8. Jake Burger (Big power potential. Could exclusively be a DH).

9. Nick Madrigal (Not a lot of power, but gets on base a ton for guys at the top of the lineup to knock him in).

 

Lets also not forget a couple of things. This would be assuming the White Sox did not add a single free agent by the 2020/2021 season. And I'm not saying it has to be Arenado/Trout/Betts... Just any veteran free agent. And like I mentioned above, not every prospect pans out, but we still have guys like Basabe, Adolfo, Rutherford, Zavala, Sheets, and Walker.

 

Then we get into pitching. Lets say the rotation is:

1. Kopech (Top 10 prospect before getting hurt. Seems like one of the hardest workers in the game).

2. Cease (One of the best pitching prospects in baseball now. Will probably be Top 10 by the time he gets called up).

3. Rodon (When healthy, the stuff is nasty).

4. Lopez (Finished 2018 very strong. Nasty off-speed stuff)

5. Giolito (Top prospect in 2016. Struggled last year, but you can see that he has nasty off-speed pitches).

 

And again, not all these guys will work out, but we still have prospects like Dunning, Hansen, Lambert, Stephens and Medeiros.

And just like the lineup I posted, this is assuming the Sox don't sign one veteran pitcher to add to the staff.

 

Moral of the story, I am bummed that we missed out on Machado just like everyone else, but in baseball, you need more than one guy, no matter who it is. The White Sox have a of depth in the minors, and have a number of guys with ridiculously high ceilings.

It’s not about Machado, it’s about how the White Sox just proved that even in a literally ideal, all-planets-aligned situation, they will not pay market rate for the player they need. Even when the market is depressed. 

They will take your money while they rebuild, but they will not spend it to contend. 

Edited by Eminor3rd
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True, but if you look at the splits, he's pretty consistent either way... I wouldn't complain if he was on the south side next year :)

 

2015 Home - 20 Away - 22

2016 Home - 25 Away - 16

2017 Home - 19 Away - 18

2018 Home - 23 Away -15

 

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2 minutes ago, Ditka19861 said:

True, but if you look at the splits, he's pretty consistent either way... I wouldn't complain if he was on the south side next year :)

 

2015 Home - 20 Away - 22

2016 Home - 25 Away - 16

2017 Home - 19 Away - 18

2018 Home - 23 Away -15

 

Alot more goes into Coors than home runs.

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1 hour ago, KnightsOnMintSt said:

I'm not as upset about missing out on Manny. Yes, I wish he would've chosen the White Sox, and yes, I was fine with giving him well over $300 million. However, when I really sit back and look at things, I realize one really important thing: Regardless of if we would've signed him or not, most of the success still relies on the how the prospects from the rebuild turn out. 

If guys like Eloy, Robert, Cease, Moncada, Kopech, Lopez, Madrigal, and Collins live up to their hype, then the White Sox will be a good team regardless. Now, would I like to have Machado in the middle of that future lineup, of course. But look at Mike Trout in LA. If I recall correctly, he has never made the playoffs, or he has made the playoffs once, and lost in the ALDS. Now that is absolutely no shot at Trout, more of just a statement on how hard it is to win in baseball, and how many really good players you need to have. 

I know that not all the prospects are going to pan out, but the White Sox have A LOT of options at various positions. Lets say this is the lineup, and their realistic potential:

1. Yoan Moncada (.270 hitter with a .330OPS. Can hit for power and is quick on the base paths).

2. Luis Robert (Otherworldly skill set. True 5-tool player. Can do everything on the field)

3. Jose Abreu  (Consistently one of the better 1B in baseball). 

4. Eloy Jimenez (Arguably the best prospect in baseball. Huge power. Can hit to all fields).

5. Zack Collins (Huge power. Gets on base).

6. Tim Anderson (Showing improvement each year. Very athletic).

7. Luis Gonzalez (Solid power. Good speed. Gets on base).

8. Jake Burger (Big power potential. Could exclusively be a DH).

9. Nick Madrigal (Not a lot of power, but gets on base a ton for guys at the top of the lineup to knock him in).

 

Lets also not forget a couple of things. This would be assuming the White Sox did not add a single free agent by the 2020/2021 season. And I'm not saying it has to be Arenado/Trout/Betts... Just any veteran free agent. And like I mentioned above, not every prospect pans out, but we still have guys like Basabe, Adolfo, Rutherford, Zavala, Sheets, and Walker.

 

Then we get into pitching. Lets say the rotation is:

1. Kopech (Top 10 prospect before getting hurt. Seems like one of the hardest workers in the game).

2. Cease (One of the best pitching prospects in baseball now. Will probably be Top 10 by the time he gets called up).

3. Rodon (When healthy, the stuff is nasty).

4. Lopez (Finished 2018 very strong. Nasty off-speed stuff)

5. Giolito (Top prospect in 2016. Struggled last year, but you can see that he has nasty off-speed pitches).

 

And again, not all these guys will work out, but we still have prospects like Dunning, Hansen, Lambert, Stephens and Medeiros.

And just like the lineup I posted, this is assuming the Sox don't sign one veteran pitcher to add to the staff.

 

Moral of the story, I am bummed that we missed out on Machado just like everyone else, but in baseball, you need more than one guy, no matter who it is. The White Sox have a of depth in the minors, and have a number of guys with ridiculously high ceilings.

This is EXACTLY what the Front Office is hoping fans rally behind. It's like this was written by a FO member. 

The reality is.....The Sox without question have been one of the worst, if not THE worst when it comes to drafting and developing players. Failure after failure has been produced over the last decade. As I've mentioned a ton before, the last all-star hitter the Sox drafted and developed was Joe Crede (He made the All-Star Game once, in 2008, and hit .248 that season.) 

Given the lack of any kind of success front this Front Office, none of us should believe any of these guys will develop in productive major league players. They are beyond "prove it mode" 

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For many teams adding a 30 mill player makes it more difficult to succeed.

For this iteration of the white sox, it made it a lot easier.

But really, if I'm being kind, the easiest way for the white sox to have succeeded would to have a good front office.

This is a bad front office, so everything is harder.

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Just forget about Arenado...no way in HELL he comes here.

Why would any great free agent trust the White Sox and not get an opt out to protect themselves in a long term contract of 6-10 years?

It just defies belief that any agent would box their client in like that for an organization that will never be the highest bidder.

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28 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

What you don't realize from your list is why that type of list made Machado or Harper SUCH a perfect acquisition.

There's a lot of guys in this organization who are likely to be at least decent, cheap big league players, but even with major talents it's tough to get true stars. Take Rodon - huge talent, top 20 prospect or so when he was drafted, but he's been a mid-rotation pitcher at best, and you've got him in the middle of your rotation. 

The White Sox will probably get a star or two out of these guys (Eloy). They will almost certainly get a number of decent players out of them, particularly since there is depth. But that does not put you at the level of the Cubs or Astros or Yankees or Red Sox. That does not make a superteam.

The beauty of Harper or Machado was - because there is good depth and a number of youngsters around, we have the money to go after a singularly high level performer. A guy hitting free agency at 26 who, if we plug them into the roster, will take over one position and make that position great. Now we've got that position filled with a great player for years, a great player who should not fall off any time soon, and teamed with the star or two (Eloy) that we develop and a number of decent players...we've got something that could be a great team.

Once we missed on that, it's possible for us to develop several stars, but that is now entirely on our org's scouting and development.

Having that much depth was our way out of having to play the mid-level of the free agent  market. It was our way to avoid signing the next Yu Darvish,  to avoid signing the next Jay Bruce, to avoid signing the next Melky Cabrera, to avoid signing the next Adam LaRoche. We have the depth where we don't need those guys, we have the depth where guys like Pollock or Keuchel are poor fits for us because we have someone to cover those positions cheaply. We can go out, identify one of the top players in baseball, a guy hitting free agency at age 26, and get something truly unique. But we didn't do it.

Now we need this team to be better at player development than they ever have been. 

This is the part that really stings. The rebuild still has a good chance of success. But the acquisition of either of them would have accelerated the process and given them more room for error of prospect busts. They could have helped the team so much by signing one of them.

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Just now, bmags said:

For many teams adding a 30 mill player makes it more difficult to succeed.

For this iteration of the white sox, it made it a lot easier.

But really, if I'm being kind, the easiest way for the white sox to have succeeded would to have a good front office.

This is a bad front office, so everything is harder.

 At the very best, Hahn has been in the Bottom 20%, and that’s being charitable.  As it stands now, the only thing keeping an abyss from opening to swallow the franchise whole is Eloy Jimenez and Dylan Cease.

It’s heartbreaking, because they could have had Nola, one pick away from a certain stud Boston LF, Tatis Jr. and Machado.  Might as well throw in Urias there as well.

But the MLBPA should be happy we picked up a slew of crappy veterans at above the going rate...that was one of their biggest concerns, those players getting squeezed or left without any legit suitors.

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3 minutes ago, ptatc said:

This is the part that really stings. The rebuild still has a good chance of success. But the acquisition of either of them would have accelerated the process and given them more room for error of prospect busts. They could have helped the team so much by signing one of them.

It’s back to 2008 all over again...fighting against windmills without Quentin.

Even if they or the Twins somehow do manage to sneak into the playoffs in future years, those super teams in NY, Boston, Houston and eventually LA will just rise up and wipe them out like the mega cities in Mortal Engines.

It’s the exact same situation the Indians are facing now, pretty much, except they at least have two superstars and a DEEP starting rotation if they decide to hold onto Kluber and Bauer all season long.

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10 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

 At the very best, Hahn has been in the Bottom 20%, and that’s being charitable.  As it stands now, the only thing keeping an abyss from opening to swallow the franchise whole is Eloy Jimenez and Dylan Cease.

It’s heartbreaking, because they could have had Nola, one pick away from a certain stud Boston LF, Tatis Jr. and Machado.  Might as well throw in Urias there as well.

But the MLBPA should be happy we picked up a slew of crappy veterans at above the going rate...that was one of their biggest concerns, those players getting squeezed or left without any legit suitors.

When asked last fall I said they were the worst in baseball.

Now y’all understand. And I’m sorry.

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I think it's hard to argue that there is a worse GM. People clown on the rockies and on the mariners but Dipoto put together a better team than any sox. The rockies can draft pretty well and develop.

The dbacks got their shit together. The angels are drafting better and both of those orgs have developed pretty well.

LOLmets were in world series, just created an incredibly deep team and Conforto may legit me an all star. Regardless if I think it's good, I guarantee it does better than anything Hahn put together.

KCR, wouldn't want that FO personally, undoubtedly more to show for it.

Reds were on a slow aging core, it sucks, but found a suarez (we are incapable), have a legit great infield coming up and again, probably a better team than any hahn creation.

So then we have probably marlins vs. hahn, and the marlins had by far the worst owner in business. They, despite spending nothing, continuously turn out some great players.

It's really hard to argue that Hahn isn't the worst, quite frankly.

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44 minutes ago, Tony said:

This is EXACTLY what the Front Office is hoping fans rally behind. It's like this was written by a FO member. 

The reality is.....The Sox without question have been one of the worst, if not THE worst when it comes to drafting and developing players. Failure after failure has been produced over the last decade. As I've mentioned a ton before, the last all-star hitter the Sox drafted and developed was Joe Crede (He made the All-Star Game once, in 2008, and hit .248 that season.) 

Given the lack of any kind of success front this Front Office, none of us should believe any of these guys will develop in productive major league players. They are beyond "prove it mode" 

Preach on brother Tony. 

I have zero faith that any of the prospects, including Eloy, will live up to expectations. This offseason has completely changed my mind about the org. While I may have given them the benefit of the doubt before, they have shown that nothing has changed. 

I'm from Missouri right now. Show Me.

Prove that things have changed, otherwise they're just blowing smoke up our asses.  

image.jpeg

Edited by Jack Parkman

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1 hour ago, Eminor3rd said:

It’s not about Machado, it’s about how the White Sox just proved that even in a literally ideal, all-planets-aligned situation, they will not pay market rate for the player they need. Even when the market is depressed. 

They will take your money while they rebuild, but they will not spend it to contend. 

Exactly, this isn't about the player more than it was all the BS that will keep this FO in the dump where they belong. It doesn't matter who will be available or when, because the FO is not up to the task and they are parading around in the media how well they did for getting close. Zero shame,zero accountability. Just like Jerry loves it. 

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Counting on the White Sox to develop prospects is just madness. Really any team thinking they are going to develop a large % of their prospects successfully is flawed thinking...but the White Sox??? I have no faith in them developing even 1/2 of these guys. 

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9 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

Counting on the White Sox to develop prospects is just madness. Really any team thinking they are going to develop a large % of their prospects successfully is flawed thinking...but the White Sox??? I have no faith in them developing even 1/2 of these guys. 

10-15% is about our going ratio for legit Top Ten prospects the last two decades...

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