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NCsoxfan

Why has Hahn failed?

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1 minute ago, chetkincaid said:

This is what I have been thinking. Do we really believe that JR is going to pay Moncada or Giolito? 

The White Sox really need new ownership.

I am not 100% sold on Giolito yet. But to answer the question, no.

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I'm not sure Hahn has failed, but things do not look the way that I was hoping that they would look when this began years ago.  The main reasons for this:

 

-Our hit rate on draft picks (not just 1st rounders) has been abysmal.  Doesn't look like we will have a single above-average regular (or even average regular?) from the '15 draft. The '16 draft is hanging on the ability of Collins to ever be anything after the other once-promising guys have fizzled (Hamilton/Hansen/Burdi...does Alex Call count as once promising?). '17 looks bad too....Lu Gon anyone? .....First rounders of Fulmer/Burdi/Collins/Burger are just a great big bucket of puke

-  Unwillingness (outside of Cubans) to invest in the top of the international market.  This is something that isn't talked about enough, but what has happened in the international market by this regime is bordering on unacceptable.  They've put themselves at a huge disadvantage by not using spending loopholes other org's have in the INT market.

-Inability to read the FA market. I'm convinced that Hahn & Co thought that the FA market would be much fatter than it was this season, but the glut of extensions signed around spring training last year shifted this market from one of the best ever, to one with 3 big dogs and then a lot of 2nd/3rd tier options that we are accustomed to.  

 

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13 minutes ago, gdane said:

I'm not sure Hahn has failed, but things do not look the way that I was hoping that they would look when this began years ago.  The main reasons for this:

 

-Our hit rate on draft picks (not just 1st rounders) has been abysmal.  Doesn't look like we will have a single above-average regular (or even average regular?) from the '15 draft. The '16 draft is hanging on the ability of Collins to ever be anything after the other once-promising guys have fizzled (Hamilton/Hansen/Burdi...does Alex Call count as once promising?). '17 looks bad too....Lu Gon anyone? .....First rounders of Fulmer/Burdi/Collins/Burger are just a great big bucket of puke

-  Unwillingness (outside of Cubans) to invest in the top of the international market.  This is something that isn't talked about enough, but what has happened in the international market by this regime is bordering on unacceptable.  They've put themselves at a huge disadvantage by not using spending loopholes other org's have in the INT market.

-Inability to read the FA market. I'm convinced that Hahn & Co thought that the FA market would be much fatter than it was this season, but the glut of extensions signed around spring training last year shifted this market from one of the best ever, to one with 3 big dogs and then a lot of 2nd/3rd tier options that we are accustomed to.  

 

These are the dangers of tanking. Some of us just like to win. Eight of 11 seasons with a winning record starting in 2000 (one year we were .500) and we didn't have to tank to get it. Yes just one WS title. My argument would be with better work from the front office we'd have gotten enough good players to win even more than we did. But we tank for draft picks? One big LOL. I had a good time watching all those winning teams starting in 2000. Yes I did even though we only won it all once. This tanking B.S. really helped us acquire good players in the draft. 

Go ahead and blast me all you want. I have the right to think those seasons starting in 2000 were mighty enjoyable. I'm not a fan that needs to win it every year. I want to be in the race and let the cards fall where they may!

Edited by greg775

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4 minutes ago, gdane said:

I'm not sure Hahn has failed, but things do not look the way that I was hoping that they would look when this began years ago.  The main reasons for this:

 

-Our hit rate on draft picks (not just 1st rounders) has been abysmal.  Doesn't look like we will have a single above-average regular (or even average regular?) from the '15 draft. The '16 draft is hanging on the ability of Collins to ever be anything after the other once-promising guys have fizzled (Hamilton/Hansen/Burdi...does Alex Call count as once promising?). '17 looks bad too....Lu Gon anyone? .....First rounders of Fulmer/Burdi/Collins/Burger are just a great big bucket of puke

-  Unwillingness (outside of Cubans) to invest in the top of the international market.  This is something that isn't talked about enough, but what has happened in the international market by this regime is bordering on unacceptable.  They've put themselves at a huge disadvantage by not using spending loopholes other org's have in the INT market.

-Inability to read the FA market. I'm convinced that Hahn & Co thought that the FA market would be much fatter than it was this season, but the glut of extensions signed around spring training last year shifted this market from one of the best ever, to one with 3 big dogs and then a lot of 2nd/3rd tier options that we are accustomed to.  

 

The best correct opinion i have read on this site since the 2  years i found this site, you are spot on with everything you said , they have completely failed in every aspect in running an organization except for making money.

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24 minutes ago, greg775 said:

These are the dangers of tanking. Some of us just like to win. Eight of 11 seasons with a winning record starting in 2000 (one year we were .500) and we didn't have to tank to get it. Yes just one WS title. My argument would be with better work from the front office we'd have gotten enough good players to win even more than we did. But we tank for draft picks? One big LOL. I had a good time watching all those winning teams starting in 2000. Yes I did even though we only won it all once. This tanking B.S. really helped us acquire good players in the draft. 

Go ahead and blast me all you want. I have the right to think those seasons starting in 2000 were mighty enjoyable. I'm not a fan that needs to win it every year. I want to be in the race and let the cards fall where they may!

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9 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Actually, we did have to tank for most of the late 80’s and late 90’s.   Not sure where Greg was back in 1997-99.

You clearly have failed to understand the meaning of my post. Please go research famous events in the background of the Chicago White Sox at that time and get back to me.

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1 minute ago, Balta1701 said:

You clearly have failed to understand the meaning of my post. Please go research famous events in the background of the Chicago White Sox at that time and get back to me.

Yes, I obviously understand the White Flag trade.  Some prefer to have selective positive memories.

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20 minutes ago, caulfield12 said:

Yes, I obviously understand the White Flag trade.  Some prefer to have selective positive memories.

Balta is making the joke that Greg says tanking wasn’t required for the Sox to win in the 2000’s, however, the 1997 White Flag Trade directly contributed to the Sox winning the division in 2000 due to two key contributors received in the trade (Keith Foulke and Bobby Howry) from the Giants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Flag_Trade

Edited by Moan4Yoan

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15 minutes ago, Moan4Yoan said:

Balta is making the joke that Greg says tanking wasn’t required for the Sox to win in the 2000’s, however, the 1997 White Flag Trade directly contributed to the Sox winning the division in 2000 due to two key contributors received in the trade (Keith Foulke and Bobby Howry) from the Giants.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Flag_Trade

Yes, obviously.  Do I have to list all five players, lol?  I’m sure Greg will only remember Caruso, Howry and Foulke.   Although I’d bet even money just 2/5, because you could blink and miss Caruso’s impact on the organization.

Howry would end up as a chair throwing hothead in Texas and Foulke to Cotts to 2005, although Koch was one of KW’s worst moves. 
 

If someone can’t recognize the White Flag trade as one of the 3 most important modern-day Sox-related debacles, they might as well follow another team.  It’s so obvious, there’s no point to acknowledge it.

The larger point is we had two lengthy periods of tanking that led to successes in 93/94 and 2000-2008.

Edited by caulfield12

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On 12/14/2019 at 2:52 PM, ChiSox59 said:

This is a good post, and I definitely agree.  I look forward to the day there is new ownership.  I asked this in another thread the other day and didn't get much of a response.  What is the succession plan when Reinsdorf passes?  Will his family take it over?  Is anyone in his family interested in running it?

This has been explained to you many times, but I will try again.  You don't get credit for offering the highest contact if the player signs elsewhere.  But it shows the Sox willingness to be aggressive, and perhaps even overpay if the situation is right.  That is a good sign.  Spending big money to sign players who may improve the 2020 team, but will likely impair the 22-25 seasons when this thing is supposed to be at full speed likely isn't the wisest decision for a mid market team like the Sox.  Its frustating in the moment because we all want to watch winning baseball sooner rather than later, but I also respect the patience, because if they blow their load now, that 22-25 window looks a lot less enticing if they don't bat close to 1.000.  

I'm happy our new philosophy is to play for the 24 and 25 seasons when our best position player and best pitcher will be gone.  This is fine strategy.  Don't force the issue now because we want to be ready to go full force with out Yoan and Gio!

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2 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Actually, we did have to tank for most of the late 80’s and late 90’s.   Not sure where Greg was back in 1997-99.

All I'm pointing out is 11 straight years of the team doing well compared to now, what is it seven straight seasons of losing. 

How bout these records: 72-89, 62-100, 67-95, 78-84, 76-86, 73-89, 63-99 all in a row. Sickening. Considering those lousy draft picks mentioned in the one post, I'd be all for cleaning house as well as selling the team.

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29 minutes ago, greg775 said:

All I'm pointing out is 11 straight years of the team doing well compared to now, what is it seven straight seasons of losing. 

How bout these records: 72-89, 62-100, 67-95, 78-84, 76-86, 73-89, 63-99 all in a row. Sickening. Considering those lousy draft picks mentioned in the one post, I'd be all for cleaning house as well as selling the team.

3 of those years were supposedly "we think we're as good as anyone and we'll be right there at the end" years. 

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8 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

3 of those years were supposedly "we think we're as good as anyone and we'll be right there at the end" years. 

if you look at the the sox top 2 picks each year since 1991 it can send the healthiest fans into cardiac arrest

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ESPN with a sobering summary of the decade. Attribute what you want to Hahn vs Kenny/Jerry but a lot of it clearly falls on him. 

It was a terrible decade for the White Sox. They never made the postseason. Only two teams won fewer games. They haven't finished above .500 since 2012. The front office spent some money in free agency but showed no creativity compared to small-market franchises like the Rays and A's. They haven't drafted well for two decades -- their only first-round picks in the past 20 years to earn 10 WAR in the majors have been Chris SaleGio Gonzalez (who was traded as a minor leaguer) and Tim Anderson.”

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6 minutes ago, NCsoxfan said:

ESPN with a sobering summary of the decade. Attribute what you want to Hahn vs Kenny/Jerry but a lot of it clearly falls on him. 

It was a terrible decade for the White Sox. They never made the postseason. Only two teams won fewer games. They haven't finished above .500 since 2012. The front office spent some money in free agency but showed no creativity compared to small-market franchises like the Rays and A's. They haven't drafted well for two decades -- their only first-round picks in the past 20 years to earn 10 WAR in the majors have been Chris SaleGio Gonzalez (who was traded as a minor leaguer) and Tim Anderson.”

Hater!

We've actually "produced" 3 of the Top 8-10 shortstops in baseball!!!

Semien, Tatis, Jr., and Tim Anderson.

 

Edited by caulfield12

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On 12/14/2019 at 12:07 AM, ptatc said:

This is what you call a little frustrated?

As I said in the other thread, I will be disappointed but not pissed. It's a game. Its entertainment.  It's not life. I save my anger for the semi who ran a red light today and ran me into the ditch. 

All I care about is if they carry through with the plan to put a competitive team on the field and start competing  for the playoffs. How they do it is up to them. If they dont come, they should be fired. But I'm not going to start a riot over it. 

Reinsdorf is committed to keeping the base thirsty.  No serious contender has Hahn as a GM.

Edited by GradMc

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He put too much butter on his popcorn on a recent family outing to the movie theater.

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