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MADRIGAL CALLED UP! (Herrera DFA)

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3 hours ago, Yearnin' for Yermin said:

Marty would be rolling in his grave reading HollywoodTim's posts. Amateur hour. 

Whatever.  Go swallow Yerminnows.

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4 hours ago, HollywoodTim said:

Agree.  The defense makes the team better, and Leury over Nicky Delmonico is an improvement both ways.  Delmonico has had about a zillion hittable fastballs right over the plate this year and he's been late on all of them, fouling them off.  I'm not sure I've seen such a display of constantly fouling off hittable pitches before making an out.

That said, Madrigal is showing still why his bat is nowhere near MLB ready.  The constant Bryant comparisons are puke-worthy.  This guy is no Kris Bryant, no way shape or form.  Service time doesn't really matter except for arb issues.  Is baby Madrigal going to be good enough to pay in his 3rd arb year?  We shall see.  I think right now he looks good enough to get an arb offer as a first year player but maybe not as a second year player if he doesn't improve with the bat.

A bit early to say, isn't it? 

I think he will hit. I also think he will gain some power and not be a 3-5 homer guy like Dee Gordon but more of an 8-12 guy with good average like Howie kendrick.

Ideal outcome would be a whit merrifield type who hits .300 with 15 bombs.

Not this year obviously but if he gains a couple pounds and alters his swing a little he can be a double digit guy.

But for this year I'm fine with him hitting 280 with 2 Homers and a couple doubles.

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1 hour ago, HollywoodTim said:

I think he's Eckstein also.  He'll eventually be a fine #9 hitter and a guy you can win with but he's not a #4 overall kind of talent IMO.

I honestly cannot think of another Sox player who has been hyped so hard even in spite of the height of his ceiling since Lance Broadway.  I remember hearing people talk about Broadway like he was going to be a #2-#3 SP at worst.  But even then Broadway took a long time and never really got that level of hype.  Even the hype on the prototypical toolsy and/or power-hitting prospects I have understood better because of the potential ceiling even in spite of the floor.  But Madrigal is the most hyped lower-floor player I can remember at least since Broadway.

IMO I think Zach Collins will be a better player when it is all said and done and I'm really not a huge Collins fan, though I believe he is improving and will be better than many are giving him credit for.

This is where I am at too.

I was around the board when he was drafted and I never understood the excitement the issue for me and it still is someone with Madrigal toolset which is around a .700-.730 OPS with good defense who can hit and get on base (his ceiling right now) Isn't that hard to find in todays MLB.

I always thought you should shoot for the stars with these picks and if they fail you can always find serviceable guys with control via trade or if you are willing to spend a bit more FA. For that reason even if Groshans didn't turn out (and he is already looking like the much better prospect) I would have never conceded we made the right pick because I don't agree with the thought process behind the selection and I still don't.

Edited by wrathofhahn

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I didn't follow the draft the year Madrigal was selected so I didn't really have an opinion.  What I had read about him made me think a lot like Dominikk85 right up until February or so if this year.  But once I saw him play my opinion completely changed.

That said, I hope he develops enough pop.  I don't care much about the HR totals though.  It's really about being able to drive the ball into the gap and hit them off the wall, etc.  I want to see hard line shots around the diamond and I don't really want him hitting the ball that much in the air.  He'll be an easy out that way.  I think Merrifield is really pie-in-the-sky ATM but I would love it if that happened.

I think the Sox should have him on the trade block.  I'm really wondering about how long before the Pads are willing to eat a bunch of money to make Manny Machado go away.  That will happen and my guess is that the rumors start this offseason.  

Madrgial's not the worse guy to have.  He should outperform his salary for his first 4 years in the league and that leaves flexibility elsewhere, but if there is a long-term solution in RF or an ace SP available, he's absolutely in the trade offer for me.  And even if it's like a 4-5 year solution type with some bad money on the end of it, but in the form of a real difference maker like a Machado, I would make that deal also.  The Sox really don't need to save a lot of money during the period of time where Nick Madrigal is most likely to ourperform his salary.

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1 hour ago, HollywoodTim said:

I honestly cannot think of another Sox player who has been hyped so hard even in spite of the height of his ceiling since Lance Broadway.  I remember hearing people talk about Broadway like he was going to be a #2-#3 SP at worst.  But even then Broadway took a long time and never really got that level of hype.

What in the fuck are you talking about with this?

Edited by Chicago White Sox
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6 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What in the fuck are you talking about with this?

Much of the board had their head in clouds when it came to Madrigal as soon as the pick was announced they literally compared him to Altuve. Now people are adjusting their expectations after seeing him hit for almost no power in the minors but all this was predictable at the time when we took him.

People can be excited to see the next prospect but I expected more with the 4th overall pick. I expected someone with franchise cornerstone type upside.

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23 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What in the fuck are you talking about with this?

ah yes, the Madrigal hype machine.  I love irrational hatred of players.

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1 hour ago, HollywoodTim said:

No.

You should consider it. You've somehow compared Madrigal to a former MVP and Lance Broadway all in a matter of ~24 hours. Your fault, not anyone else's. 

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1 hour ago, soxfan49 said:

You should consider it. You've somehow compared Madrigal to a former MVP and Lance Broadway all in a matter of ~24 hours. Your fault, not anyone else's. 

You think the comparisons I make or those comparisons which I have been accused of making, make a bad look for me.  But in actuality, your fourth grade level of reading comprehension is the real bad look, and it's one you will unfortunately have to live with.

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1 minute ago, HollywoodTim said:

You think the comparisons I make or those comparisons which I have been accused of making, make a bad look for me.  But in actuality, your fourth grade level of reading comprehension is the real bad look, and it's one you will unfortunately have to live with.

No one here compared Nick Madrigal to Kris Bryant. They compared their service time manipulation situations, and that means your reading comprehension is lacking. Log off

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2 hours ago, Chicago White Sox said:

What in the fuck are you talking about with this?

Exactly what I said.  I omitted the implication of the low ceiling but the rest of my post supplied that as context so I didn't think it was necessary.  But yes, when considering the amount of hype applied to such a low ceiling player, even with the high floor, I can't think of anyone since at least Lance Broadway that has been so unnecessarily overhyped as Madrigal has been.

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1 minute ago, soxfan49 said:

No one here compared Nick Madrigal to Kris Bryant. They compared their service time manipulation situations, and that means your reading comprehension is lacking. Log off

The worthiness of promotion has been compared, which is exactly what I was referencing in my post.  You didn't read what I said or you can't comprehend.  So I say again, please, repeat the fourth grade.

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6 minutes ago, HollywoodTim said:

Exactly what I said.  I omitted the implication of the low ceiling but the rest of my post supplied that as context so I didn't think it was necessary.  But yes, when considering the amount of hype applied to such a low ceiling player, even with the high floor, I can't think of anyone since at least Lance Broadway that has been so unnecessarily overhyped as Madrigal has been.

Lance Broadway was hyped?  Holy shit this is hilarious.  Every time I think it can't get more ridiculous a gem like this shows up.

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8 minutes ago, HollywoodTim said:

Exactly what I said.  I omitted the implication of the low ceiling but the rest of my post supplied that as context so I didn't think it was necessary.  But yes, when considering the amount of hype applied to such a low ceiling player, even with the high floor, I can't think of anyone since at least Lance Broadway that has been so unnecessarily overhyped as Madrigal has been.

Who was hyping up Lance Broadway?  Pretty sure that pick was panned the moment it was made.

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8 minutes ago, HollywoodTim said:

The worthiness of promotion has been compared, which is exactly what I was referencing in my post.  You didn't read what I said or you can't comprehend.  So I say again, please, repeat the fourth grade.

You said the "constant" comparisons to Bryant. Not the constant comparisons to worthiness of promotion, but just "comparisons to Bryant," so please show me the CONSTANT comparisons to Kris Bryant

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Leury  had some early errors, but that was not surprising given that he has been playing all over the field. Just leave him at second when TA comes back. His bat at the bottom of the order has been a revelation with homers from both sides of the plate and  a couple of multi-hit games.

Madrigal was an effective hitter  in college using an aluminum bat. I wonder what the average exit velocity off Madrigal's wood bat is now ?  That would be an objective parameter to consider in some of these discussions.

 

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While I don’t agree with everything written here, a lot of it is valuable to consider and all of it is a good read...

https://data.prospectslive.com/index.php/2019/07/20/nick-madrigal-and-baseball-preconceptions/

Madrigal, while still not striking out, did start the year a little slow at A+ Winston-Salem this season. As I note above, a lot of that had to do with an unlucky BABIP. Nonetheless, White Sox director of scouting Nick Hostetler commented publicly on Madrigal’s early plate approach:

“The one thing he’s still doing is making contact,” Hostetler said. “So that is what we expected. We expected that out of him. I’m not sure he was probably expecting the streaks. I think he’s dealt with a lot of streaks in his offensive game this year. I think he had one stretch that was 0-for-16 or 17 and he came back with a couple hits. So he’s been a little streaky this year. But I think he’s starting to learn. He’s starting to develop. He’s had one home run. He’s starting to hit some doubles, but he’s starting to learn to get the ball in the air a little bit. He’s learning how teams are shifting him, how they’re playing him.”

I was surprised to see Hostetler talking publicly about Madrigal’s failings like that. It stood out to me because I can’t recall many front office player development representatives discuss failings specific to a player’s profile like this. I think Hostetler put this out there because he wasn’t concerned that Madrigal would take it as a negative. Rather, he figured Madrigal would use this as a positive to make changes.

Of course, as soon as Hostetler put this interview out there, Madrigal responded by hitting for more power and pulling the ball more. He was then promoted to AA Birmingham shortly thereafter, where he’s been on a heater ever since his promotion.

Madrigal has been told his whole career that he’s too small to be much more than a grinder. And his whole career, he’s responded by exceeding expectations. He was the best hitter in college baseball in 2018. He’s been the 2nd best hitter for AA Birmingham behind top prospect Luis Robert this season. He’s been asked to make changes by the White Sox, and he’s made them. He has the 6th tool needed to become a successful baseball player at the Major League level.

The article also includes references to Boggs and quotes from Omar Vizquel. Again, worth the read.

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This board is so odd at times. Gushing over big dollar free agent signings like Grandal and Encarnacion but can’t wait to hate on a young player like Madrigal. The people hating on Madrigal are likely the same people that called Moncada a bust because he struck out too much or Giolito a head case and not ready to pitch in the major leagues or Luis Robert’s power was overrated based on his 2018 minor league season. SMH

Edited by JUSTgottaBELIEVE
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14 hours ago, wrathofhahn said:

Much of the board had their head in clouds when it came to Madrigal as soon as the pick was announced they literally compared him to Altuve. Now people are adjusting their expectations after seeing him hit for almost no power in the minors but all this was predictable at the time when we took him.

People can be excited to see the next prospect but I expected more with the 4th overall pick. I expected someone with franchise cornerstone type upside.

To be fair, if Madrigal started juicing and also knew what pitch was coming, he’d probably hit for a >900 OPS too

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12 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

This board is so odd at times. Gushing over big dollar free agent signings like Grandal and Encarnacion but can’t wait to hate on a young player like Madrigal. The people hating on Madrigal are likely the same people that called Moncada a bust because he struck out too much or Giolito a head case and not ready to pitch in the major leagues or Luis Robert’s power was overrated based on his 2018 minor league season. SMH

I completely agree. Give the kid some time! I hope he's in the lineup today. I feel his first hit coming soon.

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I liked the pick and like the call up. With that said, his attitude was poor when not breaking with the team. I get it, I want a competitor that’s confident. But he was not owed anything, should’ve been more gracious imo. That chip on his shoulder looks to be translating into pressing in his at bats. He’ll come around, but he lacks some of the maturity I had presumed was already part of his arsenal.

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15 minutes ago, JUSTgottaBELIEVE said:

This board is so odd at times. Gushing over big dollar free agent signings like Grandal and Encarnacion but can’t wait to hate on a young player like Madrigal. The people hating on Madrigal are likely the same people that called Moncada a bust because he struck out too much or Giolito a head case and not ready to pitch in the major leagues or Luis Robert’s power was overrated based on his 2018 minor league season. SMH

To be fair, some of the biggest “haters” here have disliked him from the start.  I do not fully agree with their opinions on Nick, but @fathom and @Harold's Leg Lift have at least been consistent with their distaste of Madrigal since the draft and have rational reasons in doing so.  I think the Madrigal situation is a completely different animal as he’s such a polarizing prospect and was taken at a spot that where you typically grab guys with superstar ceilings.  There seems to be a bit of resentment that we took a “safe” player at #4 (although I’d argue he isn’t exactly safe) and I think some of the more vocal “haters” actually are subconsciously rooting against him.

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1 hour ago, Chicago White Sox said:

To be fair, some of the biggest “haters” here have disliked him from the start.  I do not fully agree with their opinions on Nick, but @fathom and @Harold's Leg Lift have at least been consistent with their distaste of Madrigal since the draft and have rational reasons in doing so.  I think the Madrigal situation is a completely different animal as he’s such a polarizing prospect and was taken at a spot that where you typically grab guys with superstar ceilings.  There seems to be a bit of resentment that we took a “safe” player at #4 (although I’d argue he isn’t exactly safe) and I think some of the more vocal “haters” actually are subconsciously rooting against him.

Very sad if true. I wasn’t a huge fan of the Grandal signing but I couldn’t imagine ever rooting against him now that he’s playing for the team I cheer for. Manny Machado on the other hand...

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