witesoxfan

No big deal, just his 5th team this year. Seattle -> Toronto -> Oakland -> Chicago -> Philadelphia How many more cities can he call home this year?

Honestly, that's not enough of a difference for me to care. I am going to take this year at face value - signs of an incredibly talented player who has a very flawed approach at the plate - and check back next year. If he shows no signs of improving his strikeout percentage after 2 years, then I'm pretty much going to forget about him as anything other than maybe a poor man's Chris Carter.

QUOTE (Eminor3rd @ Aug 8, 2013 -> 11:51 AM) I turned it off because my girlfriend talked me into going and getting a cupcake with her. I have no regrets. http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cupcake I am guessing you partook in #4

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 8, 2013 -> 08:51 AM) I'd wager there's some degree of "if we can get one more healthy year out of Roy next year, with Lee and Hamels in that rotation as well, and Utley can play like he has this year, we're now getting production from Domonic Brown, we've got a legit shot at competing again next year". I'd imagine there's also some Ruben Amaro Jr fighting for his job too. It really is amazing how Pat Gillick can lead these teams to success and then see them absolutely fall apart after he leaves.

QUOTE (Steve9347 @ Aug 8, 2013 -> 08:24 AM) Every win is bad. Tied with the Marlins for the 2nd/3rd pick, they're 5 games "up" on Milwaukee for the 4th pick, and 6.5 games "up" on the Cubs and Twins for the 5th/6th pick. They can win a couple here and there, especially when it's a sweep of the f***ing Yankees

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 8, 2013 -> 08:13 AM) I recognize that name, hasn't he been there a while? Von Joshua was fired as White Sox hitting coach in 2001. He was replaced by Gary Ward.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 04:35 PM) Everyone suspended this week was suspended for drugs they were taking prior to the beginning of blood testing and regular monitoring of testosterone levels which started with the new CBA and should be in place right now. And also take note...they did catch 3 guys from the biogenesis clinic with the previous tests. Braun, Colon, and Melky Cabrera were all caught by the urine tests with the remnants of the biogenesis drugs in their system, so even with the primitive previous test it was still able to catch some of the guys some of the time. Braun got off on a technicality but all 3 of them were caught by the previous tests. Yasmani Grandal as well

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 04:11 PM) One thing I find fascinating, is guys like Quintana aren't suspected of juicing anymore once they get caught. I don't know how many times Hawk has mentioned how much bigger and stronger Quintana got over the winter. He said he was almost unrecognizable.The first winter after earning a sweet paycheck.anyone reaaly think Colon is just naturally doing what he is doing at 40? Studies have shown most people who do time commit more crime after they do the time. I suspect juicing is the same. And they just get better at it. How does Bartolo Colon increase his throwing velocity 2 MPH from 37 to 40? You know it wasn't a matter of just getting healthy or losing weight. I mean, Jamie Moyer pitched until he was 50 but I never suspected him. But guys increasing velocity at that age? That's not right.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 04:06 PM) Bud and MLB take the sam view. If they had the same thing they supposedly have on ARod on any of the other players that were suspended, ie they supposedly did exactly the same things as ARod, does anyone really think they would get 211 games? There's no way. Selig is clearly making an example out of ARod. Honestly, I don't know who the bad guy is. Both I guess. I don't know who's worse though either.

I could see teams giving up an average prospect. Someone who is probably going to be a major leaguer, maybe even a regular, but never super stud sort of player. In the Sox system, this could be anyone from Trayce Thompson to Keenyn Walker to Joey DiMichele to Jacob Petricka. But giving up Marcus Semien or Erik Johnson or Avisail Garcia just to rid themselves of the Danks contract (or Danks+Keppinger, or whatever)? No way in hell would a team do that. They are just going to try and recover what would appear to be sunk costs. The one player that would have ever made sense was Alex Rodriguez, and it's likely he's not even going to be paid next year, so you can cross that one off.

QUOTE (Jose Paniagua @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 02:55 PM) In football no one cares who juices. Now of course baseball has the whole thing where the records were sacred, and steroid users made those records...no longer magical So it makes sense that McGwire and Bonds etc are vilified. For these later guys now, A-Rod amongst them........who yes contributed to the general era, but who werent committing these specific atrocities on the record books , and just basically have cheated (while their opponents and opposing pitchers cheated too)......affecting Ws and Ls, like an NFL guy today does.........i dont see why some are made to be Americas Most Wanted and others are totally forgotten (ie Quintana, Flowers) You can be really good and cheat (A-Rod) and be hated, or you can be bad and cheat and be forgotten (Flowers) The NFL has nothing to do with this. It's full of hypocrites, but they are cracking down starting next year. But if you are saying that McGwire and Bonds are necssarily vilified for breaking baseball's records, then why would ARod NOT be? He's 5th on the all time home run list and, up until recent injuries and now a looming suspension, was on pace to shatter the all time home run record, and it was going to be because of PEDs. And yes, people generally don't care about cheaters who fail, because they failed anyways. If they cheat and succeed, people will believe it to be unfair and yes, they will be hated.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 02:26 PM) Not saying that taking PEDs in the minors isn't wrong, or isn't as bad as doing it in the majors. Again, this particular article is talking about the HALL OF FAME. If in the unlikely event Quintana goes on to have a HOF worthy career, none of his major league numbers will come from the benefit of his PED use while in the minors, which is not true in the case of the others. If Neyer wanted to make the same point you are making, then he should never have put the words HALL OF FAME in his article. It would be pretty f***ing awesome if Quintana had a hall of fame career with the Sox

I won 10 games in a row and lost to Knowshon Moreno but I didn't cry about it on a message board because NOBODY CARES

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 11:20 AM) See, this is the one that I wouldn't do, because I don't think you're going to get fair value on the trade market for these guys, especially Quintana. Q is going to hum along and put up productive seasons for us with little or no fanfare, much like Mark did for us for 10 years. Someone would give us something for that, but he just doesn't have the WOW factor that GMs are going to feel comfortable moving high-profile prospects for. Fanbases want exciting players, and a GM is going to get a better reception from the fanbase if he mortgages the future for the exciting player versus the ho-hum player. Now the answer to that is that fans ultimately like winning more than individual players, but all things being equal, fans like exciting more than ho-hum. GMs that listen to fans get fired. Anyways, the A's got Ryan Cook, Colin Cowgill, and Jarrod Parker for Trevor Cahill and Craig Breslow. Parker was consistently a top 40 prospect for BA. Ryan Cook has been a great reliever. Cowgill kind of sucks, but he was coming off a .354/.430/.554/.984 season in his first season at AAA when Oakland acquired him. Is Trevor Cahill the kind of guy that is going to get a fan base excited? If teams are offering you AAAA players for your young, cost controlled #2-3 starter, then don't make the deal and move on.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 10:44 AM) What value have the Mariners realized by keeping Felix, other than worse draft position? As to the suit analogy, yeah, you might fill out your wardrobe in 2.5 years, at which point, that fancy suit might be wearing out from you wearing it so much since you don't hardly have anything else. But if you just sell it now, you can use that to fill out quite a bit of your wardrobe RIGHT NOW. Ok, enough of the wardrobe analogy My position is obviously the minority one, and it would carry more risk. I do not dispute that. But I think it also brings quite the possible award. I think these kind of debates are necessary if we're going to make it through the next few years and have anything to discuss around here. The M's have found little value, and while I understand the comparison, you do have to compare each sitaution independently. Why did the Giants keep Matt Cain? Why did the Reds keep Johnny Cueto? Those guys are younger, but those teams certainly could have dealt them, but they instead kept them and built around them. Anyways, in the next couple seasons, you could see the Sox adding pieces, and then maybe 2 years from now, the Marlins make Stanton available and the Sox have the pieces to acquire him. That's an instant impact, isn't it? That's on top of other hypothetical pieces they developed and whatever else. I agree with you and Dick and everyone else that you can listen to offers, but you have to absolutely be floored to deal him. Even knowing the caliber of prospect that Bogaerts is, and with all those others included, it's tough to make that move. QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 10:47 AM) I'm specifically thinking of Gio. QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 10:52 AM) They traded Haren after 2007. Gio a couple of years ago. Gio was the best at 5.1. They got Tommy Milone, AJ Cole, Derek Norris, and Brad Peacock. They've gotten fair value out of it, but really only Cole has a chance to be a true game changer. Derek Norris's numbers look worse than Tyler Flowers'. Peacock was turned into Lowrie and Fernando Rodriguez with the help of Chris Carter. I would not be happy with that return for Chris Sale. Dan Haren actually put up better fWAR numbers for Arizona than he did Oakland. It's funny you mention that trade too. The A's got Brett Anderson, Chris Carter, Aaron Cunningham, Dana Eveland, Greg Smith, and Carlos Gonzalez back. I'm sure Arizona would like Gonzalez back, but what others in that group have really done anything at the MLB level? That's the perfect example of a trade that's a no brainer for any team backfiring badly. I'm way more likely to trade Santiago and Quintana than I am Sale. At least in my mind, you're far less likely to burn yourself doing that.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 10:31 AM) I don't think I agree with this whatsoever. The A's are not kicking the can down the road right now, are they? When have the A's traded a 7 WAR starter? Their MO has been to trade guys like Quintana and Santiago, not guys like Chris Sale.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 10:28 AM) You implied it with your post about Felix. The argument isn't paying off a $20k debt by selling a $50k car. I think it's more like owning a $5,000 suit when you only own two other shirts and one pair of pants. Is the fancy suit really helping you at this point? Maybe down the road, when you acquire all the other pieces you need, but not now. Now it's just a ridiculous luxury. I'm not sure you can say we WILL be competitive in any year for certain, given the state of the organization right now. And given the teams we are going to be "competing against," (Boston, Texas, Detroit, Tampa Bay), do you really think we can beat them? We've gone down this road for the last 4-5 years, trying to retool and "compete," and it hasn't worked out. I think it's time to commit to building a new nucleus of young, talented everyday players, and IMHO, trading Sale is the best way to do so. I didn't imply no value, I simply was pointing out that it's not very likely you are going to get a comparable player back, no matter prospect "rankings" or whatever. I said the expected results of that package was 2 regulars, 1 utility player, 1 mid rotation starter, and 1 reliever (I didn't suggest the pitchers word for word, but implied it with the Andre Rienzo/live arm thing). Is that the value you want? With the Felix thing, I even said that there were 6 good players in that deal, just that they have been inconsistent at the MLB level and that I still wouldn't have made the move. Of course, Bogaerts could turn out like Hanley Ramirez, and then the Sox need only one other prospect to turn out to win big time. But my thing is this...it's 2013. You really, really don't think that, if you save up enough, you can buy dress shoes, cufflinks, and a silk shirt and whatever else you need over the next 2 and a half years? Realize that during those years, you will have very busy periods of buying and selling still. This is ASSUMING that your mom doesn't surprise you with a shirt or shoes or whatever that she has made herself. I think it's absolutely crazy to think that you won't have a full suit by 2016. I think you can have a full suit by 2015.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 10:02 AM) You can't simultaneously make the argument that we can add value to the organization by signing DFA'd guys and claiming guys off waivers but not through adding a few stud prospects through trading Sale. Those positions are contradictory. Secondly, my argument is not "I don't know when the Sox will compete." My argument is "we will not compete anytime soon, and thus, Sale is a luxury which we are not in a position to realize the incredible value he brings." Is your argument "if we get lucky, we can compete"? Is that really any better? Well of course you can bring in value for Sale. When have I denied that? I just don't believe that to pay off a $20,000 debt you need to sell the $50,000 car. My argument is not "if we get lucky, we can compete." It's "continually add pieces to the organization through many different means, continue to make thrifty and smart signings, trades, and claims, continue to build, and you could get lucky and compete in 2014 or 2015, and you WILL be competing by 2016." I really don't think that's unrealistic at all.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 08:33 AM) So you're saying you expect Viciedo to have a ridiculous spike in production the year before he hits free agency? Or are you saying people should stop touching Viciedo's head? Not at all, but it's definitely a possibility. Or it's possible he just figures out how to hit. I know you weren't writing off Viciedo by any stretch, and I hold a similar view to yours, but the idea of 24 year old who has struggled through his first 1100 MLB plate appearances figuring it out is not unprecedented. Lumping Garcia and Viciedo together is not crazy at all.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 09:50 AM) Build from WHAT? We have s*** in our system. The FA market is going to be littered with "damaged goods." Teams are locking up their good young players early (just as we did with Sale) so they aren't hitting the open market. The guys that do hit the market are doing so because they want a monster contract (how many of those turn out well?) or because they are mediocre and expendable. If you want to keep Sale, you're looking at having to basically build through the draft. Given where we are right now as an organization, that is going to take time. Time that will be wasted with Sale winning 6-7 more games for us a year to put us in 3rd or 4th place instead of 1st or 2nd. I will agree with you 100% that the minor league system is absolutely terrible and I don't expect any of them to become starters, but acting as if drafting players is the only avenue for adding young players to the system is crazy. Sign DFA'd and non-tendered players, claim others off waivers, sign small free agents, make trades...you can still do all these even without a lot of MLB pieces to sell off. You don't sell Sale because you "don't know when the Sox will compete," which is essentially your argument. That's absolutely absurd. You can build a relatively decent offense in 2 years. If you get lucky, you can compete.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 09:35 AM) When I say "afford," I mean from a total assets standpoint. Yes, we can afford his contract rather easily, but how long is it going to take us to build a team around him? Where are these position players going to come from? Once we build this team, how long is it going to take to gel? How many years might it take them to win a division? A playoff series? It just seems to me that you're asking for an awful lot of to come together if you expect the MLB club to rebuild (or retool), become competitive, and then be capable of winning playoff series' with Chris still being the guy he is today. I see no reason this team can't be competing for a division come 2015 and by 2016 at the very latest. If he falls off that far in 2-3 years, then f*** it.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 09:18 AM) Technically no we won't because we're unlikely to be told that he's been put on waivers and passed through. Well that's true, but he's going to clear waivers. If someone claimed him, I'd shipp my pants AND so would the White Sox and I can't see any reason they'd hang on to him at that point.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 09:14 AM) Easy enough to find out. Waive him. And then when nobody claims him, we'll have our answer.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Aug 7, 2013 -> 08:35 AM) If Bucholtz was healthy, I definitely make that deal. Masterson, Buchholtz, Doubront has been like Quintana. The others are filler, but 3 starters, and good starters, one or 2 who could be aces, are better than one guy every 5 days as great as King Felix is. But Buchholz hasn't been healthy and he's really only a guy you can pencil in for 180 innings at the most. This is the first time in 5 years since being in Cleveland that Masterson looks like he could be a potential #1 or #2 starter. He had a good ERA a couple of years ago, but he put up very similar peripherals last year and his ERA was 4.93, so how much of that ERA was luck driven? Doubront is a nice piece, but he is a mid to back end of the rotation starter. The others have been hit or miss too. You are getting a package of like 6 players that have been good but incredibly inconsistent, as well as a couple filler pieces. I just can't make that move for Felix. Now consider that they will offer less for Sale. Can you make that? Because I can't.

QUOTE (HickoryHuskers @ Aug 6, 2013 -> 01:40 PM) That's true, except that Garcia is two years younger and has a wider range of potential paths. In the last two years, Viciedo has gone from where Garcia is now to the lower end of that range. Compare Viciedo's numbers to Adrian Beltre's. Seriously.