Chicago White Sox

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 6, 2015 -> 04:35 PM) If they were to give him $30-35 million guaranteed for two years (and some in the WAR crowd would justify it, surely), there wouldn't be much joy in Mudville. I truly hope no one on this site would try to justify that contract, as it would be a horrible use of resources. Doesn't really matter though, because he's not getting an AAV of more than $10M and will only get that or close to it because of a lack of alternatives in the marketplace.

Holy f***, another thread ruined with nonsensical Royals commentary. I appreciate the mods effort to curb it, but it's really starting to get ridiculous. Caulfield, you seem like a very nice & intelligent person, but for the love of God stop derailing every thread with the Royals propaganda.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Nov 5, 2015 -> 09:08 PM) How much of that is from his earlier outlier season/s as opposed to 2013-2015? 2012-2014, and that's not including his injury-riddled 2015, he's at a 726 OPS vs. righties. So the next question is do you want for Alex Avila with his recent history (including numerous physical problems) to be the primary catcher? He is only 28 now and would be 29 on Opening Day. I'd gamble with that over Flowers, honestly. Plus he has the added motivation of proving the Tigers and his father wrong in their head-to-head match-ups, so there's that. He had a wRC+ of 107 or better against RHP each year from 2012 to 2014. I'd call that a pretty solid track record. We all know he had a horrific 2015 and the health problems are a legit concern, but he could be an interesting buy low candidate to pair with Flowers. All depends on the cost and what else is out there at a somewhat reasonable price.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Nov 5, 2015 -> 08:37 PM) He's a LHH who hit .203 vs RHP last year. He's got a career wRC+ against RHP, that's pretty f***ing good.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Nov 5, 2015 -> 05:07 PM) Why is Royals crap in this thread? Seriously, the endless Royals comments are already getting tiring and the offseason just started.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Nov 5, 2015 -> 01:13 PM) Yeah. I think Royals can give QO to Gordon after he declines player option. Team cannot decline team option and then offer QO. According to this, rejecting an option (team or player) doesn't prevent a team from offering a QO. http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/10/expl...fer-system.html

QUOTE (raBBit @ Nov 5, 2015 -> 12:02 PM) I don't know about deferred money. Are we still paying Konerko? Buyouts happened in '15 not '16. As far as Turner and the other spots I made it pretty clear I was saying X amount of players costed Y amount of money. I know it wasn't perfect but more of where we are at with the most likely candidates on the roster. Apparently we still owe Peavy $1M, plus $1M buyouts for Emilio & Alexei. Wasn't disagreeing with anything you said, just had gone through the payroll exercise last night prior before seeing your post and figured I'd mention where we stood in case anyone was curious.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Nov 5, 2015 -> 07:36 AM) Per Dan Hayes, Renteria is getting a second interview this week. I'll be happy with Acta or Renteria, but would prefer Acta based on my limited information.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Nov 4, 2015 -> 11:08 PM) Abreu. Robertson. Cabrera, Eaton, Quintana, Sale, Danks, LaRoche and Duke are 9 players for 87.71 million Flowers, Jones, Jennings, Garcia and Putnam are 5 players for 8.2 million using MLBTR estimates. That's 14 players for 95.91 million Assuming Petricka, Rodon, Sanchez, Johnson, Saladino and Thompson make the team that's 6 players at ~3.3 million. That's 20 players at 99.21 million. I understand the article did 40 man payroll but their numbers for reserve players are still wrong. You're missing about $3M in buyouts and deferred money, plus another $3M if you assume five more rookie contracts to fill out the 25 man roster & sightly more if Jacob Turner gets a spot. We should be sitting between $105M & $106M right now.

QUOTE (WhiteSoxLifer @ Nov 4, 2015 -> 10:07 PM) http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2015/11/04/whi...oll-obligation/ Sox have about 105 million roster right now. Wonder how much they go up to We were at about $119M last year according to this: http://www.spotrac.com/mlb/chicago-white-sox/payroll/2015/ I think $130M seems like a reasonable projection, although I'm sure I'll be in the minority in guessing that.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Nov 4, 2015 -> 06:18 PM) Because the guys people on here actually want to trade are guys who won't bring in anyone "significant." They can bring someone in but doubt it would make a difference. Todd Frazier would be a significant upgrade and I don't think his cost will be as much as people are expecting. Prospects are at an all-time high in terms of value. I actually think you could get him without having to give up Anderson or Fulmer, who are the only two untouchables in the system IMO.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Nov 4, 2015 -> 06:09 PM) Then I guess we're dealing Quintana otherwise we aren't getting a significant upgrade. My idea of having Freese keeps our pitching staff intact which it won't be if we upgrade significantly at multiple spots. If we're relying on Freese to be a big upgrade, we're punting the season anyways. Hold onto your big three starters and give guys like Saladino, Sanchez, Micah, Avi, & Thompson a look on the position player side. Target 2017 to be the year we're serious about competing. Having said that, why can't we trade minor leaguers or sign better free agents than Freese to fill needs? Why does it have to Quintana or nothing?

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Nov 4, 2015 -> 05:17 PM) Ok guys we're not getting Arenado. I think we end up signing Freese who wouldn't be a bad pickup. I agree about Arenado, but completely disagree on Freese. We need significant upgrades at several positions if we want to compete next year and 3B is perhaps our biggest opportunity spot. Having said that, Freese is a moderate upgrade at best. Might as well give Saladino a look if the alternative is a 34 year old free agent with 2 WAR upside.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Nov 3, 2015 -> 10:28 PM) Subpar starter with the bat. And the difference between him and the 6 or 8 guys ahead of him is not that much. Catchers suck at hitting across the league. He's considered a top 2 pitch framer in MLB this year. Because you don't have an easy way to quantify and contextualize that extremely important part of catching, you undervalue it. He helps the pitchers be better and more effective. He's an overall averagely valuable catcher. Huh? I never once mentioned anything about Tyler Flowers other than his bat, because that's the only thing that was being debated in this thread. Are we moving the goalposts now? And I've said time & time again on this board that there is no good way to quantity the true value of a catcher. Pitch framing is just one of many reasons why. Not sure where you get this idea I don't the importance of pitch framing. However, I would argue you're likely undervaluing the impact pitchers themselves have on pitch framing and therefore are overvaluing Flowers.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Nov 3, 2015 -> 09:37 AM) http://grantland.com/the-triangle/2015-mlb...ny-joe-girardi/ I've posted this before but Robin is actually decent at managing the pen. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that stat is simply looking leverage and ignoring all other bullpen management aspects. Second, wouldn't having a high paid closer who pitched very well in high leverage situations completely skew that stat? Not to be a dick, but I'm not sure that stat really proves anything. Again, correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of the metric.

QUOTE (Vance Law @ Nov 3, 2015 -> 05:34 PM) An even better excuse is simply that he is a catcher. 21st in wRC+ amongst catchers with 300+ plate appearances. Dude is a bad hitter for the position too.

QUOTE (Jose Abreu @ Nov 3, 2015 -> 08:17 AM) The issue with all of these fan made Cubs/Sox trade proposals is that Cubs fans are too set on not giving up any of the big prospects (Bryant/Schwarber/Russell) and instead make players like Starlin Castro and Javy Baez centerpieces, while Sox fans are too set on getting 1-2 of the big three prospects while also receiving a Javier Baez or an Albert Almora on the side. There has to be a middle ground. They're undervaluing our pitchers and we're overvaluing them. I've said it before, but Bryant & Russell are untouchable. Everyone else is fair game. I find the Starlin Castro proposals to be beyond ridiculous. He has almost no value no matter badly as the Cubs want to hype him as a stud middle infielder.

I'd rather have Adams than any of those Cubs pieces.

QUOTE (Flash Tizzle @ Nov 2, 2015 -> 07:57 PM) Yeah...... Javier Baez is not going to be involved as a centerpiece of any top starting pitcher on our team. Atleast I hope to hell not According to Dick Allen, Theo wouldn't trade Baez straight up for Quintana, but maybe if we're lucky they'd do a Baez for Sale swap?

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 1, 2015 -> 10:42 AM) I think there is a pretty good chance of a bounceback from LaRoche between that, and being his second year in the AL. I agree, I don't expect a repeat of his 2014 numbers, but really believe he can be productive next year. At the very least, I think he deserves a 6 to 8 week look before moving on to other options. The best chance for this team contending is for guys like LaRoche, Melky, & Alexei to perform closer to their career averages than what they provided last year.

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Nov 1, 2015 -> 09:43 AM) Is there data on guys who move to the DH spot without having prior experience there and then struggling? I'm not sure two data points is a sufficient sample size to make that kind of conclusion, especially since we acquired both guys well after their prime years anyway. Again, not saying all guys will struggle, it's just a risk that should be taken into consideration when giving annual salaries in the 8 figure range. Small sample sizes, but last year LaRoche put up a wRC+ of 103 when playing 1B and only a 59 while DHing. He even acknowledged he had struggles adjusting to the role. Going back and looking at the splits, it's looks like I was wrong about Dunn, as the DH role didn't seem to be a problem for him. But there have definitely been other guys who have had issues with DHing. Pretty sure Frank Thomas had some significant splits in the latter part of his career when he spent the majority of his time DHing.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 1, 2015 -> 09:23 AM) I understand you were agreeing with me, I just think "forced" is an incorrect way of describing it, that's all. DHs usually are players that are deficient in the field but can hit for power and drive in runs. Dunn fit that description to a T, Laroche is still good in the field but his godawful start really didn't make anyone want to play him anywhere, much less the field. We all want Edgar Martinez hitting DH, but unfortunately the Sox keep getting guys closer to Ray Martinez You're dwelling on a single word and missing the point of my argument. It is very dangerous to pay a guy $15M to DH when he's never done it on a regular basis before. Not once did I suggest we need a HoF like Edgar Martinez, there are plenty of 1B types in the AL that have some experience DHing that would be safer signings than getting career NL guys. I get that Dunn had no business playing in the field, doesn't mean we needed to be the team to give him $15M a year to find out if he could handle DHing. And trust me, I was 100% behind the Dunn signing. Just saying that with the benefit of hindsight, I think we need to more cautious when filling the DH spot going forward.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 1, 2015 -> 08:27 AM) Come on, forced? Both of these guys signed their contracts knowing what their job description was, it isn't like the Sox pulled a bait and switch on them Who is saying the Sox pulled a bait and switch? I think you've competed misinterpreted my post. I was agreeing with you that this NL players can't hit in the AL argument is stupid and unfounded. Like I said in my previous post, the larger issue is assuming all players can handle DHing. Sure, just because Dunn & LaRoche agreed to DH and probably thought they could handle the role, doesn't mean it was going to work out for us. Our front office has to be smarter about giving big contracts to guys with no track record of DHing if that's going to be their primary role. Right now, we're 0 for 2 in those situations.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Nov 1, 2015 -> 07:55 AM) I just browsed the last 6 years, Pierre/Dunn/Laroche/Kotsay/De Aza And we are making proclamations based on this bunch and their sample size In regards to the OP, I don't fault the Sox front office for not making a run at Morales. He certainly did not look like he had anything left after his short stints with the twins and Mariners. Good for the Royals for getting what they got out of him, but I didn't see many people wringing their hands from Laroche over Morales. De Aza was a pretty solid hitter for us, all things considered. Pierre & Kotsay pretty much met expectations offensively, which should have been fairly low. All this goes back to Dunn & LaRoche, who are far less similar hitters than the the majority of this board realizes. The one constant, however, is both were forced to DH without having a track record at the position. Not suggesting that is the only reason for their struggles (age/health certainly played a role), but DHing is not for everyone and we shouldn't automatically assume every power bat can handle the transition.

QUOTE (Ballz-n-Strikes @ Oct 31, 2015 -> 11:42 PM) Quintana is untouchable. Where do you get that from? *Edit - I'm editing my OWN post. He is more valuable (arguably) than Sale. THAT is how good Q is. I love Quintana, but have to fully disagree here. Don't see an argument for how Quintana is more valuable than Sale.