Chicago White Sox

None of this s*** can be real right? Who are these guys exactly? And Fat Albers starting? Is that really the emergency starter at this point? It all seems fishy to me. I will say this, if they are at all close to dealing Sale, then you don't take a chance with him starting.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 04:20 PM) Robertson and Q for Moncada, Beinitendi, Swihart and lower level guys. Done. End rebuild. Sale-Shields-Rodon-Fulmer-Gonzalez C-Swihart 1B- Fraizer 2B- Moncada 3B- Lawrie SS- Anderson RF- Eaton CF- Beinitendi LF- Melky DH- Abreu Add to the bullpen. If it fails again, sell again. Did you just list a rotation with Shields as your #2 and say "done...end rebuild"? That rotation is a huge concern. Even if Rodon takes a step forward, there's no question Fulmer needs more seasoning if he's going to be a starter. And not sure Swihart can stick at catcher, I thought they moved him to the OF? While the offense could be much improved, it's just as possible that Moncada & Benintendi have rookie struggles. No offense, that team is unlikely to compete for a wild card in 2017 and then potentially lose Frazier, Melky, & Lawrie. I don't see how this plan works with Sale as good as gone come 2020.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 03:58 PM) I keep seeing people say that too but I have yet to see a proposal that actually covered all the holes within 2 years. The only option from my analysis is to spend an extra $50 million a season to sign a CF, C, DH and re-sign Frazier. Exactly. I'd be ok with "going for it" if Reinsdorf was willing to pony up the cash and there was enough talent in next year's free agent class, but the reality is such a plan will not and can not be executed. They'll spend their remaining minor league resources to get one named player and then dumpster dive to fill their remaining holes. It sounds like even Jerry realizes that's a plan destined for failure once again.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 02:19 PM) Trading our best in a complete rebuild is just going from one extreme to the other. I think there are some great moves that can be made and not tear up the team so we don't compete for several years Like what? Please elaborate.

QUOTE (dmbjeff @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 02:20 PM) If the asking price is 5 top prospects for Sale and 4 for Quintana, can you imagine what that does for the future. It totally changes the game for their current future projections. If they hold onto Sale and Quintana, they basically have a 1 year window(2017) to win. This would require throwing gobs of money at Encarnacion, Desmond, Ramos. This is clearly not a White Sox move. Then and only then could they possibly make the playoffs short term, and it may only be short term for that one season. 2018, Frazier, Melky, Lawrie all would be gone. Who would replace them? It would have to be even more money thrown at FA's or throwing money at those players. Again, not the White Sox MO. Trading everything away now and retooling and being ready for 2018 or 2019 is the way to go. I am convinced this is the best long term solution for them being a great team again. 2020-2025 would be some great baseball. I won't make fake lineups but imagine Moncada, Collins, Benitendi, De Leon and much much more playing at the Cell. Sale and Q's value are at all time highs now, now is the time to strike and rebuild. You then can get rid of all the other vet's and get good prospects for them as well. I'd say goodbye to Frazier, Melky, Lawrie, Duke, Robertson. Heck even Eaton and Abreu could go. I really hope Hahn does the right thing and fixes this mess that KW has created. Yes, this guy gets it. Don't pass on this opportunity Rick Hahn!

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 02:04 PM) Here. http://www.todaysknuckleball.com/knuckleba...-still-calling/ Get it done Hahn, don't settle for anything less than that...someone will eventually bite.

QUOTE (NCsoxfan @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 01:39 PM) Dombrowski would do a 1 for 1 deal in a heartbeat. No questions asked. Signing bonus is a sunk cost at this point, already paid and irrelevant to this. Exactly, the $60M should have no barring on this decision. Plus where does Moncada play? I'm pretty sure Pedroia is locked up until 2021 and Boegarts will be their SS for the foreseeable future. Maybe they could try him at 3B or LF, but those aren't huge areas of need for them. Getting a legit ace for the next 3 1/2 years makes them the team to beat in the AL. They would be scary good and their young core gives them plenty of time to allow the farm system to replenish. There's no doubt in my mind that Dombrowski would trade Moncada+ for Sale. The only question is how much is that plus and is it enough for the White Sox to bite.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 12:52 PM) I don't think Boston would give up Moncada for either. They spent $63 million signing him with bonus plus penalty. I find it hard to believe he would be available starlight up let alone in a package. Wow, you honestly think the Red Sox wouldn't trade Moncada straight up for Sale?

QUOTE (ptatc @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 11:59 AM) I think the plan will be to trade Quintana and Robertson and a few others. I think that is the plan they will use and I think it is the better option than trading both pitchers. Trade them for what? How do you replace those two and fill the holes at CF, DH, & C and in our bullpen? And do you extend Frazier, Melky, & Lawire to big contracts? If not, how do you replace them after next season? There are simply too many question marks and you're hoping that all the players you receive for Quintana & Robertson work and fill all those holes instantly. That's a suckers bet IMO and no different than what we've been doing the past few years.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 11:22 AM) Calling it an "easy path" is clearly a fallacy. Instead of having known quantities, you have multiple unknown quantities that you need to all go right, in a really narrrow window of time. It is not "easy". Otherwise teams wouldn't routinely fail at it. For a competely modern version, ask the Twins how rebuilding is working as they are on to their 3rd GM and 2nd manager in recent years, and as bad as they have been in decades. When did I ever call rebuilding an "easy path"? I simply said there was no easy path to build around Sale in the next three years. I stand by that statement, our minor league system sucks and so do the next two free agent classes. There are definitely risks to rebuilding, but it provides a much greater probability of success than holding onto Sale & Quintana and eventually losing them for nothing.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 11:14 AM) There is no easy path to build without him. That is the fallacy here. I've outlined a plan to build without him, so have others. I have not seen one single plan on how we can win with him before he leaves before free agency. By all means, share your plan if you have one. Otherwise, don't call rebuilding a fallacy, because it's the only course of action with actual logic to it IMO.

While very unlikely, this could be Sale's last start with the Sox.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 10:53 AM) And if you don't get a ridiculous return for Chris Sale, the downfall is that he is yours until next decade... oh wait. Awesome, except there is no easy path to build around him and you're more likely than not to lose him for nothing in three years with no playoff appearances to show for it. That's about as big of a downfall as it gets.

QUOTE (maggsmaggs @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 08:44 AM) Ya, that's not that happening. Betts and JBJ alone are close to equal in value to Sale over the next 3-4 years due to their contracts and performances. You aren't getting Moncada/Benintendi/Devers PLUS JBJ or Betts. In a deal with the Red Sox, the best you could hope for is one of Moncada/Benintendi, one of Devers/Kopech and a couple other B-level prospects. For Chris Sale? The Red Sox just traded a top 20 prospect for Drew Pomerenz. While I'm in agreement with you on your first statement, you're seriously undervaluing him in your second.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 07:50 AM) I think Q might be dealt before this years deadline. I'm starting to get the feeling that they will hold onto Sale until after the season where you could potentially have 20 teams bidding for his services. The problem is there aren't anywhere close to 20 teams that can provide us with what we need in a Sale trade. In fact, there are only a handful of teams and most of them are currently in a playoff race. In all honestly, now is the time to deal both Sale & Quintana, but I won't be upset if they wait until the offseason to move one of these guys.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Jul 23, 2016 -> 07:17 AM) The Redsox aren't trading those 2 in July. If the Sox want one, wait until the offseason to fashion a trade. What they should do is ask for their top 5 prospects, and then bargain down from there. Top ML ready prospects is where the surplus lies this time of year...not with major league players. That's how you find players to fill multiple holes. If the Sox got Betts, that would be about it, except, perhaps for a low level prospect or 2. Don't trade him if that's the case. I agree with this. Bradley & Betts are both terrific players, but if the Red Sox are willing to give up one of them (only in the offseason mind you), they'll represent the majority of your return. Sure, you'd get some prospects back, but not Moncada or Benintendi types. And these guys only have four years of control left, which means you'll only have them for a year or two while your team is actually competive. Honestly, I would rather just have their top four prospects (two of whom are elite) plus Eduardo Rodriguez (value low right now) and at least one B spect. Not only are you getting back a lot more pieces (which we need), but you'd also have six years of control for the ones that do work out, which fits better into our competive timeline. Also, for all of you saying we don't move Sale unless it's the most lopsided trade in sports history, what value does Sale really provide us over the next three years? We're not winning anytime soon if we hold onto him. On top of that, his value will never be higher given the current market for starting pitching and his length of control. As that control erodes, so does his value and each & every year is another chance he gets injured. Now is definitely the time to convert Sale's incredible short term value to competive teams into an insane amount of future value for us. We will get an absolute haul if we move Sale right now, we just have to be realistic on what "insane" looks like.

QUOTE (Elgin Slim @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:44 PM) I don't care. I agree with those who say that Bryant/Betts/Bogaerts/Correa is a starting point, and disagree with those who say that those players are more valuable than he is. You don't get a prime age ace who is on a 3/39 contract for less than that. He is, IMO the 2nd best LHP in baseball. and the only pitchers you could make an argument for being better than him for 2nd best in the game are Bumgarner and Fernandez. (Bumgarner and Fernandez pitch in the NL. Sale would have nearly Kershaw #s in the NL IMO. He'd annually flirt with, if not achieve 300 K Arrieta was a flash in the pan IMO. He'll settle in as an ace level pitcher, but not a demigod like Kershaw) So, you are essentially trading for the best (healthy) pitcher in the game, with a contract of 3/39. Think about that for a second. Whatever Kershaw is worth in a trade when healthy, think about that deal. That is what Sale is worth. Then you add in the contract. So you get the rest of his age 27 season and his 28, 29, 30 seasons(prime) while paying him no more than 13.5MM in ANY season. For a top 3 pitcher in the game at worst. So think about that again. THEN tell me he's not worth Bryant++ or Correa++, etc. Sorry dude, but Bryant >> Sale.

QUOTE (Jake @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:25 PM) We're far from backed into a corner where we need to trade Q/Sale If you honestly believe this, then please explain. Tell us how you'd turn this team into a winner before Sale leaves. I haven't seen one rational argument for how re-tooling makes sense, just a lot desperation to avoid rebuilding.

QUOTE (Deadpool @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 11:01 PM) The idea of doing that PLUS a deal involving Q is instantly a giant step ahead for an organization. Exactly. Plus you can get a few more prospects by dealing Frazier, Melky, Lawrie, Robertson, & Duke between now and next offseason. The system instantly goes from bottom five to one of the best in the game. And you'd still have some interesting major league pieces in Eaton, Abreu, Anderson, Rodon, Fulmer, & Jones. With all the financial savings, you could aggressively pursue any international free agents that are relatively young and don't count against bonus pools. It would no doubt be an ugly couple of years, but if executed correctly, you could have most of your pieces in place for the epic 2018-2019 free agent class and quickly become legit contenders. That's so much more attractive of a plan than attempting more retooling.

There's no question in my mind the Red Sox are the best fit for Sale, because you don't have to get a piece off their major league roster. Moncada, Benintendi, Devers, & Kopech is an incredible start. Throw in a couple more B-level prospects and you have a deal too good to pass up.

1-7 since the All-Star game and Robin still has a job. Absolutely mind-boggling.

QUOTE (Deadpool @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 09:37 PM) Our front office doesn't give a f*** about the Cubs. Our fanbase shouldn't care, either. And if there's one thing we have all learned, the baseball operations group cares little what "the fanbase" thinks. They know when the team in the black pinstripes wins, the seats get filled. It's not much harder than that. Well, I will 100% disagree with you here. Do you remember how long it took a chunk of our fanbase to get over the White Flag trade? You think most Sox fans would be cool with watching Sale help the Cubs win their first World Series in a 100+ years? Sure, some of the more sophisticated fans on this board would be ok with it, but Bob from Bridgeport ain't going to be happy and may never be able to forgive this ownership group. As much as it theoretically shouldn't matter, it would be the equivalent of the Red Sox selling Babe Ruth to the Yankees for a piano. And don't doubt for a second that Reinsdorf, Hahn, & KW aren't aware of this. That's not to say they wouldn't trade with the Cubs, but they definitely won't be trading the face of the franchise to them in one of the most important deals in team history.

QUOTE (Deadpool @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 09:28 PM) I would take Schwarber, Contreras, and Baez. I don't necessarily need Bryant. I'd need another high-end prospect like Torres or Jimenez plus a B spect or two. Unfortunately, any deal with the Cubs is a pipe dream as our front office helping them win a World Series would be seen as an betrayal by a large chunk of our fanbase.

QUOTE (SouthSideSale @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 09:17 PM) Sorry Cubbies. It starts with Bryant. Come on man, Bryant is arguably a more valuable asset than Sale. I really hope the Sox's demands aren't that outrageous or we're going to miss out on a huge opportunity here.

QUOTE (Quinarvy @ Jul 22, 2016 -> 03:55 PM) Are they prepared to give up Moancada, Swihart, Benintendi, and Bogaerts? *That is officially the craziest "fleecing" deal I've ever typed out. If Boston is willing to give up all three of Moncada, Benintendi, & Devers, we wouldn't need to touch their major league roster IMO. Moncada & Benintendi are legit top 10 prospects and probably only a year away from being major league ready. I'll take that as a substitute for a young, major league bat. Need Devers, another top 100 prospect, and a coupke B types to make the deal right now. Otherwise, I'm holding Sale until the offseason.