Flash Tizzle

QUOTE (fathom @ Apr 4, 2017 -> 01:26 PM) Q is probably the only player you pray gets off to a good start His value as a trade piece means more to the White Sox than whatever he does on the field. Does one terrible game jeopardize his vaue? No, and I don't think anyone has suggested as much. But it absolutey cannot be a reoccurring problem. It's easy for Hahn to hold off trading Q assuming he'd pitch at his usual level and maintain trade value . "Wait until the trade deadline" ive heard many say. But if he doesn't......wow, that would be TERRIBLE for this franchise's rebuilding effort. It's just the risk we've accepted.

I have criticized Hahn in past years, especially last season for an apparent lack of convinction with roster construction and failing to trade anyone midseason.......but this deal is phenomenal. Finally someone who overpays for one of our players! I love it and actually agree with Soxace this is a better deal than Sale. For everyone concerned about an abundance of pitching prospects, you have to take the best players available in any trade; much like the draft. Worry about balancing out the offense later.

QUOTE (iamshack @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 11:08 PM) Generally, I'd agree, but if nothing else, Moncada actually has the potential to become a more valuable player than Sale by himself. True, he'd be worth several more wins at his potential, but for upgrading the lineup significantly we lost our ace. The goal is improving significantly at the expense of losing now. I'd be very disappointed if Moncada is the only player to come out from the deal.

As much as I'd hope to unanimously win every deal during our rebuild, I'm not upset that this package (on its surface) appears "fair." As much as we'd like to believe Sale didn't need to be moved, there wasn't any other choice. His value is at its peak and I believe the risk of keeping him outweighed the risk of not receiving enough in return. However, Hahn better damn well hope Moncada becomes a stud at the minimum. Also atleast one of Kopech/Diaz/Basabe becomes a 3+ WAR player. The point of rebuilding is to receive numerous contributing players in place of one. We're not helping ourselves in a one for one. I'm not criticizing the deal or Hahn, very proud of him pulling through here and doing perhaps the most Un-White Sox move in the team's history. For the first time in years I'm excited for our future. I just hope this (and future) deals work out because this offseason will determine his fate. Now I have to think Shields being here to eat innings is huge. Hahn still isn't off the hook for trading an intruiging prospect for him, but since he's unmovable, he can go 7+ innings every.....damn....start now

QUOTE (ChiSox59 @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 12:03 PM) I'd be very, very, very lukewarm to that package. Moncada is exciting, but I almost like Giolito, Robles ++ more than that. Idunno... I think sox are smarter than getting JBJ unless they have something else up their sleeve (flipping him to Nats). I'd hope so, but it kind of makes me think if Boston is only in the deal because we've lowered the demand. Any trade that you have to say, "well maybe they will flip player x to insert team" makes it a bad one. All trades should be judged on their own merit

QUOTE (ChiSoxFanMike @ Dec 6, 2016 -> 09:36 AM) This. This I could get behind. I'd like Devers to be included as well but I'd still prefer this over Washington's offer even without him. I'd support it too. If Devers is the piece we have to lose in the negotiations so be it. Thinking, "this is Sale we should get everything we want" will lead us nowhere

QUOTE (bighurt574 @ Dec 5, 2016 -> 06:05 PM) Seeing what other teams have received for a half or full year of a top pitcher in recent years, I'm not convinced we'll be getting a fair "multiple" of that by trading Sale now with three years of cheap control. There seem to be some diminishing returns with the extra length. We could still net plenty at the trade deadline or next winter. That assumes he stays healthy of course, but you can say that for anyone. My God, please tell me after last midseason when everyone excusing the lack of trade activity said, "wait until the offseason when more teams will be available"......that we're not AGAIN holding off for the next trade deadline/winter. Listen, Sale's trade value is more important to this team's future than his value to the White Sox. What do we need him for, the anchor a 77 win team? I look at it like this: I'd rather trade Sale for perhaps one player less than what we negotiated (assuming there's atleast three others we receiving), than keeping him hoping the market materializes for us, or knock on wood Sale is injured. Losing Sale's trade value is a far worse fate for this team than receiving less than the moon in return.

Good, deal reached now Hahn can resume Sale trade talk (assuming it ever stopped)

I'll guarantee the new agreement will be ratified before midnight. Then Hahn and co. can move forward with improving this team without making excuses.

Well there's the excuse I've been waiting for to explain not trading Sale! Not only are we held down by our own management, but now the CBA, owners, union delegates are all conspiring against the Sox when we're poised to change our future (and direction) with perhaps the most significant trade of our generation. Oh, I know.....it's justifiable to hold off, teams are uncertain, etc. I was expecting more of the, market never materialized like we wanted excuse Atleast this CBA nonsense will either be resolved or not by Dec 1st

QUOTE (lasttriptotulsa @ Nov 15, 2016 -> 09:07 AM) Or that their price wasn't met. Don't trade Sale just to trade him. It needs to be a high but reasonable price. I can't believe four teams bidding for Sale will ALL collectively low-ball Hahn. Someone is bound to give him what he wants. This is why we didn't trade him last deadline, right? That the offseason would be better for his value with more teams available. That's the excuse I heard over and over. Well, it's time to act

I believe every emotion is warranted for a potential rebuild, because obviously we haven't undertaken anything close to it. Personally, I'd rather accept the risk of failure than continue on our path since 2008That's what you didn't touch on. You're scared of a rebuild because they've failed at accumulating talent through past deals (to be fair, players with FAR less value than Eaton, Abreu, Sale, Q were involved) and tge Cubs have had fortunes turn their way. I personally don't feel we're following them as much as trying something different because as an organization we're in a rut. If we just continue accepting the notion of "going for it" when every metric available concerning our players and what's available via FA says it's unlikely we'll compete, why bother? Has anyone thought the worst what would happen if God forbid Sale or Q injure themselves in 2017? It'd set the team back YEARS....all for a team maybe battling for .500. They're our most valuable assets, and honestly, are worth more in trade value than they are to this team

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Nov 12, 2016 -> 02:31 AM) No doubt that Verlander had an amazing year last season, his best in a while, but he will be 34 before the seasons starts and still makes $28M a year for through age 36 season, plus a $22M vesting option for age 37 season. Obviously not saying he's a salary dump, but I feel like the Dodgers can hold on to their top pieces if they wanted Verlander. The worst part would be it's one less suitor to drive up prices for Sale and Q for the Red Sox/Yankees/Astros/Rangers, etc. Which is why Hahn should be already activiely contacting/listening to offers. If the right deal comes along, need to pull the trigger quickly even if it is November 12th. Every team exploring other options is one less trading partner/negotiating ploy to drive up his price. I'm not trying to discredit Hahn or anything, I'm sure he's hard at work, but I'm of the opinion we cannot just sit back and wait this offseason. Playing the "it's only (insert month)" or "wait until winter meetings" games will quickly then become "oh well, I guess we'll try again during the midseason." I trust he'll understand how important this offseason is to this team.

QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 09:59 AM) Jake ArrietaVerified account ‏@JArrieta34 35m35 minutes ago Time for Hollywood to pony up and head for the border #illhelpyoupack #beatit I'm sure that'll rattle the fanbase a little bit. Honestly, if there's one positive I see in defeat it's the hilarious reaction from Hollywood celebrities who have bombarded everyone with their political thoughts. Just the arrogance of these people to threaten leaving the country if Hillary lost, probably thinking to themselves "well, all these polls show Clinton ahead so I probably won't have to keep my word."

QUOTE (brett05 @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 08:24 AM) You should not have the right to murder people. Even as a Democratic/Hillary voter it's fair to point out Trump's position is not entirely against abortion. He supports it in cases of rape, incest, and when the health of the mother is at risk. That's a compromise if I've ever seen one for Republicans.

QUOTE (JenksIsMyHero @ Nov 9, 2016 -> 06:34 AM) I'd bet a lot that none of this changes. You're not getting more gun restrictions on a federal level but you weren't going to get that anyway. People need to breath. This is exactly how Republicans thought about Obama. He didn't destroy the country/world. Exactly, even with a majority Trump will not just breeze his way through legislation. I understand it sucks losing a game played every four years and for one day, but let's not pack our bags for Canada just yet. We'll get through it

Several of you honestly need to stand back and breathe. I'm surprised reputable posters are questioning how in the world they'll raise their children during his presidency, or predicting some sort of apocalyptic scenario where this country implodes from within. I honestly see a lot of the post Cubs World Series, doom and gloom for our White Sox type of mentality here. Listen, our candidate lost; we need to accept it, stop whining, and learn from our mistakes. Looking back now it's a wonder we all didn't see it coming. I voted for Clinton because overall I was more in line with her political values and aspirations. However, I'd never consider myself a staunch, vote Democrat blindly down the ballot type of person. There were several points I agreed with Trump, but not enough to make up for his character flaws. What astonished me through all of this is the invincibility of Trump. Nothing could take this man down -- not even his own political party! All the video recordings, comments, soundbites only reinforced his position as an outsider. What I would perceive as a detriment (no political experience, playboy lifestyle, ridiculous comments) the general public viewed as the model for anti-establishment. His opponent? The epitome of the establishment; a continuation of everything as it is with Obama. A woman submerged in politics and incapable of giving a heartfelt smile. One of Clinton's downfall, as MSF mentioned, was not representing the middle class. Categorizing Trump's voting base as "deplorables" and constantly harping on about how homophobic, xenophobic, racist he is obviously wasn't the right strategy. For her, nothing would have worked because she was a TERRIBLE candidate. It was believed the media shamelessly promoted her, the DNC was rigged, her private server mess, and let's not forget about her 9/11 memorial Zombie walk. it was all just too much for voters to overcome. Sanders voters weren't supportive, Minority voters weren't enthuastic about her, and those undecided either leaned towards Trump or didn't vote What's really sad is Trump, through all his ridiculousness, energized the Republican voters. He was the creation of every stereotype come to life, and no one took him setiously until it was too late. As if some kid wished upon a star and created him one night 70 years ago for this purpose. We had to rely on Westworld Hillary.....one of the oldest hosts in the park.

QUOTE (Scoots @ Nov 7, 2016 -> 09:45 PM) To be 100% honest, I've been leaning more toward the White Sox should be buyers and get the guys like Encarnacion and Rich Hill and try to get a Ramos or trade for a Lucroy and sign Cespedes or something unreasonable. The more I see posts and articles giving sound reason as to why the Sox should sell, I believe I am now part of the group that wants the Sox to sell. The only player that I would hate to see go is Quintana, and a little bit Abreu. Both are hard working guys who go about their elite business in a quiet and humble way. But hearing how much talent the Sox could possibly get in return is very alluring. Maybe the Sox didn't make those trades at the deadline for a reason and actually knew what they were doing...waiting to get a better package in the off season. They haven't earned ANY benefit of doubt, but if Hahn is capable of trading Sale, Quintana, whomever else for a great package of talent, that'll go a long ways towards rebuilding trust in this organization.

QUOTE (Chet Kincaid @ Nov 7, 2016 -> 06:01 AM) This has been the story for some time now, but I'm not buying it anymore. Now I think fans are even less likely to show up to watch the same boring team stuck in neutral. I know I'd be excited to watch a bunch of young future studs get out there and at least make us feel optimistic about the future. I'm not buying it either, fans want a rebuild. If we were to receive quality returns for whomever is traded the fanbase would be completely on board. Hahn has Quintana and Sale at his disposal, he should easily accomplish that. And while I cannot put an exact percentage on the number, I know the call for a rebuild has jumped drastically in the last few years among fans. We've grown restless and tired of the same groundhog type season. I just feel there's just such much fear on this board for a rebuild. Like they're afraid to fail. Afraid to see their team do poorly, even if it was under the knowledge a boatload of high end talent (which you'd receive from Sale etc) is in the system. Several of you are so comfortable in this terrible, baseball-relationship with the Sox and their mediocre ways you'd rather be fooled into believing things will get better doing the same damn thing they've always done. Any suggestion of something different is always backed with an excuse: the Cubs, lack of experience with rebuilding, lack of fan support, etc. Try and look at yourselves from an outside perspective. How would most people knowledgeable of baseball view our effort to "go for it" in a weak FA market with few expendable prospects to swap for ML talent? They'd laugh and laugh, then maybe cry when realizing people believe this path should be followed. Everyone opposed to a full rebuild just ask yourself -- why not try something different? What do we honestly have to lose?

QUOTE (Deadpool @ Nov 6, 2016 -> 10:35 PM) Completely different scouting environment now that statistics, computers, and analysis rule the league. You know what doesn't work? What we're doing right now. We might make the playoffs once in the next decade. I really wish I can understand the mindset of the anti-rebuild crowd. To put yourself in the position that you wouldn't want a rebuild because it hasn't worked for other teams.......meanwhile accepting what the team has unsuccessfully tried to do since 2008.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Nov 6, 2016 -> 08:33 PM) I'd still contend that this team would need a miracle to pull of a successful rebuild on the first try with its lack of resources to carry it through the process. When you look at how many times it took teams like KC, Pittburgh, and company to do it, I don't see the excitement for rebuilding that others do. Here's what is so damn frustrating (and quite frankly annoying): Why not atleast TRY? We don't know if a full rebuild will succeed or fail because we've yet to try it. If after five years we're in a terrible spot regarding our rebuild, then reevaluate. What difference would it make it in 2022 we've failed with our current philosophy (which has PROVEN not to work), or rebuild (which may not work.....but who knows). I really don't understand the reluctance. I feel the same people say a variation of the same excuse every year why we can't and shouldn't rebuild. "JR wouldn't allow it," "fans wouldn't approve of it," "you trust the sane people that put together this team to rebuild," "we're just a few players away...." All terrible. I can not guarantee the path to a championship is through a rebuild. What I can say is what we're doing, and have been since 2008, is not working.

QUOTE (Chisoxfn @ Oct 25, 2016 -> 12:40 PM) Don't look at me. I think I was the most negative person on the trade at the time it happened. The White Sox rarely seem to be on the right side of these trades. I'd like the Sox to unload a garbage player for a return value similar to that of Tatis Jr. These type of trades are desperately needed by us too. Trading fair value won't improve our team

Also as you guys mentioned, why did Shaw pitch outside to Zobrist knowing that's where he was aiming? And why weren't they shaded defensively after seeing it?

QUOTE (Soxfest @ Nov 2, 2016 -> 11:25 PM) They had a chance bottom of 9th and had s***ty at bats against a dead tired Chapman. Its amazing Chapman pitched better after giving up the HR than Allen and Shaw. Indians continually look like they want to make it close......but then wet themselves

QUOTE (chw42 @ Nov 2, 2016 -> 10:56 PM) This is bad for the Indians. Shaw's gonna have to sit. Nothing can be bad for the Indians after coming back that 8th inning. All the pressure is on the Cubs