Flash Tizzle

QUOTE (zisk @ Oct 4, 2016 -> 09:43 AM) Sign alvarez or adam lind to DH. fulmer and burdi add to pitching staff. fulmer/shields 5th starter & long man spot starter. lawrie 2nd base til june 1st. then dfa or trade. saladino,leury,tilson and cheap vet fight it out in center. when june rolls around, reassess and add or trade everyone. We're shuffling around players to once again finish around .500. Why even bother going through all that? We can reasses now after this season that a rebuild is needed. Why waste anymore time? I don't think people realize Sale and Q are more valuable to this team as trade bait than bringing them a championship. We're not winning anytime soon, and this franchise should be blown apart if neither of those two are traded and (god forbid) they're injured or ineffective come midseason. We may tell each other we don't need to trade one or both, but we do

QUOTE (Dunt @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 03:38 PM) A big problem with rebuilding this offseason is that a lot of the best prospects in the game right now are in rebuilding organizations. You can sit there and hope the Red Sox will trade a package of Benintendi, Moncada, Devers, etc., but they don't need to trade for pitching. The Dodgers don't really need to either honestly. The good teams have insulated themselves so they don't have to overpay. I dont see a ton of guys out there right now that are going to come up and be no doubt offensive studs. Would you trade a guy like Q to the Pirates for a deal centered around Austin Meadows maybe? Do you really foresee the Yankees trading a bunch of the guys they just acquired for an ace? This looks like a really bad situation the Sox are in. Hope Jerry is ready to break open that piggy bank. Once again the world conspires against the White Sox right? Funny how that always happens. When the opportunity arrives for us to sell two quality SP....no one is willing to meet our demands, prospects are too highly regarded (ad if they're ever not), or as you suggest the best prospects are in rebuilding organizations. Basically, Boston and LA won't trade any of their premier talent because they don't need to; and the lesser teams won't because they're rebuilding. I'm not going to give Hahn a pass after the trade deadline debacle and neither should any of you should shrug your shoulders and say they're in a really bad situation. Too bad! Make it work Hahn. Whatever he needs to do to trade Q and or Sale for a haul of players to rebuild this team needs to occur. I don't care about "needing two willing people to trade," nope. No more excuses for Hahn. He needs to deeply evaluable every viable prospect and major league player to assemble his trade package. There should be 30+ proposals at his disposal, one for every team. Even those with no chance of considering. This offseason will determine the course of our future, he should be acting as much Let's not act like breaking open the piggy bank is any less of an impossibility. Especially since it'll do little to improve a team with too many holes to fill in one offseason

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 01:19 PM) I don't disagree that a rebuild is a compelling option, and I agree that it's inevitable. It's just a question of whether you do it now or later. From what I've heard coming out of the front office, JR doesn't seem ready to commit to one just yet. So, if he wants to open up his wallet and try one more time, I don't think that's a crazy idea. But his window of opportunity for doing that will shut after next season, so it's now or never. So if the Sox don't do their rebuild this winter, it'll probably begin in July. But you see, if JR is really this old man fearing a rebuild, I'm sure he'll angrily shake his fists and say the window will be extended because of our pitching rotation. There will always be an excuse, I've seen it on these forums and its very predictable. What exactly makes 2017 the make or break year for JR in your opinion? Especially if, as you suggest, he opens up his wallet. What sense would it make to sign some FA's to go for it one year? My concern is at this moment you have Sale and Q healthy and contributing. Both are at high value. You wait until July, God knows whether that small probability rears itself and there are health or ineffectiveness issues. You'd hope for the best obviously, but these two pitchers mean so much to the future of this franchise and it's not due to them directly helping us win a championship. Our next playoff appearance will likely be after one or both of those two are gone. I'd rather not chance anything with our top two trading chips. One or both should be dealt this winter

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 12:37 PM) If you're going for it in 2017, the idea is that you add this offseason. Obviously, not changing anything and expecting better results is silly. 2017 really is their last chance, though. There's just not enough in free agency or the farm system to replace Frazier and Melky AND improve the the team as it stands now. If the Sox cannot appreciably add this winter, then I agree that they should sell off. My first option would be a rebuild. A second option far below that is doing absolytely nothing to the roster. Third would be attempting to trade/sign various players to try and compete. The problem is they can not appreciably add to theor roster this winter without (further) depleting the farm or overspending on a weak FA market As I see it, a rebuild is inevitable and I would not waste one cent trying to improve this team. They'll succeed or fail with what they have.

QUOTE (GreatScott82 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 12:30 PM) Hahn and KW are beyond lucky they work for the White Sox. If they were apart of any other organization, they would have been fired a long time ago. With that being said-- can you finally cut your losses and rebuild? Not a half-ass 2013-14 mini 'retool' job. I am talking a good 3-4 year rebuilding plan. Let's face it, Renteria really doesn't bring more fans to the stadium, but he does have a track record of working well with young players. The free agent class is weak, no need to sacrifice your 12th pick or anything. You have plenty of assets, start wheeling and dealing. Lets do this the right away. No more patch jobs, odd ball veteran signings etc... I believe in the sentiment thrown around here that playing safe with roster construction (ie, "going for it", avoiding long term contracts) is the key to job security for Hahn and KW. They're comfortable and not willing to make waves with Uncle Jerry. What's the route more likely to lead to their firing? Three more years of .500 baseball while doing their White Sox special of signing/trading veterans to put around around their core.......or losing (maybe even 90+ games) over the course of three seasons rebuilding? It's a lot of risk for Hahn, especially if it's involving prospects. This offseason, we'll see if Hahn is doing what he should for the future of the team, or just what he needs to keep his job. A rebuild I'd venture to predict is supported by a large percentage of the fanbase. If he does it right and there's talented players coming back, I know we'll accept losing.

QUOTE (Black_Jack29 @ Oct 3, 2016 -> 11:58 AM) Except that Frazier and Melky both hit free agency next winter, and the Sox cannot legitimately "go for it" without those two. So there is a compelling reason to either sh*t or get off the pot this year. There's always an excuse, always some reason to justify holding off a rebuild for another date. Again, as Hi8is said, our fans are repeating the same damn lines since 2013. And Frazier and Cabrera's pending FA is not enough reason to justify going for it. If they're selling those two will find reasons (ie, their next contract) to perform well I just don't understand, assuming the entire core will return, how can anyone expect different results? We're not improving through FA and I don't believe trading what's left in our farm system is the right course. It's time to finally sell. And sonce SOOO many people insisted we'd receive top value for Sale and Quintana in the offseason because "more teams are available to bid for them," let's act on it

Sigh, I wanted to believe so much.

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Oct 1, 2016 -> 11:16 PM) The Shields trade should not get anyone fired. What did we give up in that deal? It hasn't worked out for us so far, but we essentially just signed Shields to a 3 yr/$27M deal or whatever it turned out to be. If he can give us 200 healthy innings next year, it isn't going to damage this organization like a trade-that-gets-someone-fired typically would. What good are 200 healthy but historically terrible innings? The trade alone isn't enough to get someone fired, but added on top of years of team futility (and I'm not even taking into account the midseason debacle, which I've always believed was a battle of Hahn/KW) it was the final straw. The White Sox don't have the payroll flexibility to absorb 9 million dollar oopsies

QUOTE (SpankyEaton @ Oct 1, 2016 -> 08:39 PM) I wonder who made the Shields move, was that a KW move or a Hahn move? If it's KW's move, then I wonder if that had any hand in him getting fired (not just that trade alone though). I doubt Sale would be the first to go, but I do think they'd move guys like Quintana, Robertson and Cabrera...not that there's a lot of value for the last two guys. I'm sure whatever reason is cited for leaving will be accompanied with vague statements that we'll be left over analyzing. Williams is very saavy when it comes to saying a whole lot of nothing. Us, as fans, will take "I'm deciding to move on to the next chapter in our life" as "See he's admitting fault with these recent teams!" Personally, I think it's reasonable to assume everything is a possibility now. Saying it's doubtful Sale will be the first to go, or lesser players will be traded instead, is the old style of thinking. Forget about it, nothing can be predicted -- and that's what I love. Atleast now there's the possibility that with KW gone things will change. I'm now optimistic; more than I've been in years. Maybe nothing will be different and we will finally be able to point to Hahn as being the sole person responsible for our ineptness, but for NOW, I'm happy that for once we're going against predictability

QUOTE (fathom @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 05:39 PM) 117 pitches in worthless game....yikes Leaving him in against Cabrera who was 3-3 against Sale too. Lucky it wasn't hit out, and that the inning ended on the next pitch. All for Sale to get a win in a useless game lol

QUOTE (Lip Man 1 @ Aug 16, 2016 -> 11:28 PM) In other words, "we'll be half-assed going for it again in 2017!" Mark I look at it as JR suggesting, whether they rebuild, add-on, or do nothing it'll be according to plan. That way, there will be no talks of "being on the wrong page" or some power struggle within the organization. Expect no talks of being "mired in mediocrity" or anything suggesting their path, since setting expectations at the trade deadline is what aggravated so many after nothing happened

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 14, 2016 -> 01:28 PM) Maybe the most pathetic inning of Sale's career here. Oh where oh where did his fastball go I wonder if "pitching to contact" is code for "lost of stuff/confidence. Really hope this doesn't start a decline in Sale through the end of the season. We desperately need a franchise altering trade from him

QUOTE (fathom @ Aug 13, 2016 -> 07:05 PM) Hopefully Kaplan saying the dynamic between Hahn and KW being dysfunctional means Hahn is gone Why does KW escape this? Hahn and Williams should go. Otherwise we'll just be questioning KW's influence like we do now, just with another name

QUOTE (Thad Bosley @ Aug 13, 2016 -> 07:03 PM) Shields was supposed to be an innings eater, but for the most part, the innings have been eating him lately. Anyone can eat innings, really. If that trait isn't attached to tangible results, who cares? He could give up 10 runs and go 9 innings every game if we allowed him

QUOTE (captain54 @ Aug 7, 2016 -> 06:44 PM) . What's sad is fans being mocked and ridiculed for being skeptical and questioning why, as a big market franchise, things are where they are I won't name names, but this is also a problem with certain posters who throw out remarks like "if you don't like the team why are you or a fan" or just "stop watching" when those of us are critical of the entire organization.

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 7, 2016 -> 06:09 PM) Basically, better than the 30 years prior to his group buying the team. So does this excuse the state we're in? Just look at everything now. The entire organization top to bottom is viewed publically as dynsfunctional, decrepit, and unable or unwilling to change. I'll be willing to bet when the time comes and a new owner takes over, immediate changes will take place for the White Sox and within 5 years everyone will know (whether it was publically stated by then) that our current regime in 2016 severly impacted the future of the ballclub because JR just didn't want a rebuild

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 7, 2016 -> 04:34 PM) I disagree that this is why they are in this position. I think they are in the position because of poor drafting/development. Overspending at anytime (unless they are truly 1 player away) is just the wrong way to maintain a competitive team over an extended period of time. Poor drafting/development is #1 and Terrible FA signings are 1a. I agree it's not necessary to overspend on talent, but it's not just excusable anymore to chalk up our failures with FA signings as bad luck or being snake bitten. We're consistently selecting the wrong person year after year when comparable players for similar salaries are achieving success. This just compounds our failures with issue #1

QUOTE (ptatc @ Aug 7, 2016 -> 03:47 PM) That would only hurt the team in the long run. The better option is to draft and develop better while filling the gaps with players they think are at value. Filling in the gaps with players THEY think are at market value has them dumpster diving. I think we all should agree that this is in part why they're at their current position. White Sox need accountability with their prospects and expectations need to be met. Look at their current system, it's embarrassing. For a team needing to rely on a draft so heavily we should expect successful drafts. No excuses, no "bad luck with player x being injured," nothing; it's the position they've put themselves in. Also admitting they need to draft better is an understanding they'll need all the help they can get with draft position. More slot money and better talent available. Losing is a must

3 HR's for Machado? Hell, why not serve up 5 or 6?

QUOTE (Dunt @ Aug 7, 2016 -> 02:12 PM) How is nobody fired for this dumpster fire yet? At this point one game won't make a difference, but it couldn't hurt to embarrass the White Sox further. I'm hoping Orioles score 20+ and shut us out

QUOTE (Feeky Magee @ Aug 7, 2016 -> 01:59 PM) *finally gets out of Danks contract* *trades for worse pitcher with equally bad contract* *refuses to trade pitcher after miracle fluky run* God bless you White Sox FO Honestly, if they just think of a plan and do the exact opposite, could it possibly be any worse? DFA Chubs now

QUOTE (DirtySox @ Aug 3, 2016 -> 08:19 PM) I sure hope Chris Sale threatens to demand a trade this off-season. I hope he sure as hell doesn't publically say it. We nee a franchise altering trade for him, not anything that would diminish his value

Jim Bowden ranked all GM's at the deadline on ESPN. Hahn received a F. More than his analysis, anyone happen to read it and know if there were any scouts/insiders quoted?

QUOTE (ChiliIrishHammock24 @ Aug 2, 2016 -> 03:37 PM) Do you think it makes a difference to win 76 games and miss the playoffs, or win 70 games and miss the playoffs? Also that line of thinking about winning only serves one benefit, immediate gratification. But does it matter past that day? Or month? Do we really care now how their record was in 2013, 2014? Hell, 2015 we only care to serve as an immediate comparison to now. Just think, two more losses in 2014 and we could have drafted Benintendi. But thank god we had those two extra wins!!

What I don't understand is looking at every season since 2008 we've tried a variety of ideas on how to construct a winning ballclub -- FA, trades, developing our own talent, signing international players, rebuilding on the fly, yet the one idea we've yet to try, the one we've yet to attempt, is so disregarded by management. We may fail, yes. But how do we know if we don't try!? Selling players with value isn't losing, it's another attempt at trying to win when everything else at your disposal has failed. To those people holding off onto the idea the wintertime will bring the White Sox the players they seek in a trade, I really hope you're right. I'll gladly commend Hahn if he does his job and unloads Sale or Q, etc. for quality players. Although if Hahn wets himself again, there shouldn't be ONE member here defending him. No more "spring training just started lets wait," no "let's wait until midseason" talk, no blaming market inequalities or outside forces that conspired against the White Sox. No more excuses