SCCWS

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 11, 2016 -> 12:16 PM) Sale is definitely the guy you move first. Biggest name, best stuff, most dominant, & least control. Someone will give up a haul for him, including several pieces that plug holes immediately. Whether you go for full-blown rebuild (my preference) or partial rebuild (my prediction), moving him is an absolute must. Moving Quintana makes sense in a full-rebuild, but you've got to get fair value for him. I can see a scenario where you move Sale this offseason and Quintana either at the deadline or during the 2017/18 offseason to maximize their markets. It would also buy you some time to see how the prospects you got in trades this offseason are working out and whether or not holding onto Quintana makes sense (unlikely IMO). You definitely do NOT move Rodon right now. His value hasn't come close to peaking and with 5 years of control left, he still has a chance to be part of our next competive core. And if the rebuild takes longer than expected, you move him in a year or two when/if he's established himself as a top of the rotation stater. But my thinking is different because I say your whole premise is wrong. In the end, I think Sale will not be tradeable. The White Sox want a "haul" for him( which is valid) and I don't see a viable trading partner. We saw Boston was not really close in their discussion at the trade deadline and their 2nd half success makes them even less likely. Dodgers are also doing well and are less apt to tear their system apart. Yankees are going young already and I doubt they are not reversing to go after Sale. Now maybe there is a major event that changes the existing landscape, i.e. Kershaw or Porcello getting a major injury and are out next year. But as things look, I think Sale will be back because the Sox will not find a team willing to deplete a bunch of their young players to get him Now if Hahn reverses and goes for say 2 established players or just 4 prospects that might do it but you lost a lot as well in that type of deal. So I think if you are going to take advantage of the SP market that will be over-valued, the choice are Q who gets you X or Rodon who gets you 60% of X

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 07:02 PM) How were any of those guys in any way comparable to the talent of our core six? It's not even close. Miller is the best left-handed reliever in baseball. He just brought back to Yankees 4 prospects from Cleveland including 2 of their top 3. Iglesias is one of the best( some rate him #1) defensive shortstops in baseball as well as a career .275 hitter.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 06:03 PM) They also had Lester, and now they have Price and spent for Ramirez, Porcello, Sandoval, etc. The irony is that the low priced additions like Victorino, Napoli and Koji Uehara were the key according to most in 2013. You also have the best season historicallly for a 40 year old in mlb history and $63 million spent on Moncada, not to mention more money for Rusney Castillo. Not comparable situations at all unless you put Epstein, Cherington or Dombrowski in charge and gave the unlimited budgets. And they were still last 3/4 years, but 2016 is mitigating some of those struggles already. No they won it all in 2013 so two down years and back contending again . Agree they are in a different world but the poster asked who has rebuilded w a core of youth in last 10 years. They spent money in free agency and had a farm system bloated w talent.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 04:48 PM) Again, I don't know why you would trade Quintana and Rodon for prospects while holding Sale. That sets you up to rebuild for 1-2 years and then have Sale walk as a free agent right when your team is getting good. If you want to rebuild - you send Sale and Quintana out to look for guys that will help your team in 2-3 years. If you want to win right now, you look at trading Fulmer and perhaps Rodon to get better right now. This is the only case where it would make sense to trade Rodon - you're willing to give up a future ace because you need another ace right now. Trading Rodon and Quintana for prospects makes holding Sale really odd. You didn't read. I wrote you choose between Q and Rodon not trade both. The question I have is does Rodon have enough value to fill a couple of holes on the roster vs trading Q who fills holes but creates a void as #2 starter.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 03:54 PM) What players did they trade as young, talented, and controlled as the core six I mentioned? Boston traded Felix Doubront, Andrew Miller ( who they got for Josh Reddick), Jose Iglesias, Will Middlebrooks, Daniel Nava as well as several veterans as part of a total roster rebuild. It looks like it worked. Nobody is saying you trade the core 6. But you trade from strength and the only strength this team has is young starting pitching. I doubt you are able to trade Sale so he stays. Anderson is too valuable to trade. Abreu stays since his value to Sox may be more than what he returns in a trade. You shop Q, Rodon and even Fulmer to see what the market offers and trade one to fill some holes on the roster. See what Frazier, Melky, Robertson, Jones and Eaton are worth. I think Lawrie and Shields are also not worth trading due to value. Maybe Robertson and Jones are in the same category

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 03:44 PM) Trading Rodon (Under team control for 5 years) for prospects while holding onto guys under team control for 3 and 4 years seems totally backwards. If you're trading Rodon, you want a top flight guy who makes you better right now, while you still have those other 2 guys. Agree. I don't think Sale is really trade-able so you choose between Q who probably gets you 3 pieces in return and Rodon who now may get you 2. You still have other pieces to trade like Roberton, Frazier etc that could add additional young players and prospects. Hopefully the demand for pitching will be over-valued this winter and the Sox have at least 2 very tradeable young pitchers.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 01:52 PM) Name one team in the past 10 years that has undertaken a full rebuild with a core as young, talented, and cost controlled as Sale, Q, Rodon, Anderson, Eaton, and Abreu. In 2013 Boston won the World Series and had Pedroia, Bradley, Bogaerts, Buchholtz and Ortiz. Had two down years but totally rebuilt their roster Through FA, trades and their farm they rebuilt their bullpen, starting pitching, catchers, RF, IB, 3B, LF.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 10:25 PM) Really pumped about the emergence of Rodon. Looks better and better each time out. He's looking like an ace in the making and possibly as soon as next season. That rotation is downright nasty if they get that #5 spot tightened up. Hopefully he keeps it up and his trade value is enough that the Sox can trade him this winter for a couple of prospects and keep Q and Sale.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 09:03 AM) The Sox look to extend their winning streak to 4 games at home and keep playing the spoiler role. KC won't be making the wildcard. Too many teams ahead of them in the race.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 01:45 PM) In a general sense, one thing I see looking at this team is some really low hanging fruit that can improve the team VERY quickly. The performances that we got out of John Danks/ James Shields/ Raunando is something that can be improved upon greatly, without a significant move. The offense is another spot that is just begging for big improvement all of the diamond. The question would be how do you utilize resources to get those players, and that is what people get paid the big dollars for. But I would content that there are some spots were a lot of improvement can be found. But that was the same problem last year w Dank's performance and they addressed it w back-ups in Turner and Latos. So it is certainly fixable but not going after scrap heap types. It may take trading an asset ( Melky?) to get a legit 4/5 starter. But that opens another hole.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 10:12 AM) Matt Davidson and Avi Garcia should be red flags in regards to anyone thinking these guys are better at identifying minor league talent. or in James Shields case maybe that person got promoted to scouting ML talent.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 11:07 PM) Yes, I'd easily take a package built around those two. I'd also like Kopech and a few other prospects, but there's no doubt I'd make that type of deal. And IMO, the Red Sox really might consider doing it depending on how their pitching does in the playoffs. Pomeranz has been a disappointment so far and other than Price, I'm not sure they have a starter with elite stuff that you'd like in October. And as great as Moncada & Benintendi are as prospects (and they're great), they're somewhat expendable for Boston. They still have Devers in the pipeline for 3B and could sign a free agent OF to replace Andrew. Throw in the fact that the Yankees could be major players for Sale and I could see the Red Sox being very interested this offseason. Well Porcello is their #1 and he probably wins Cy Young. Pomeranz is their 5th starter so he is not a factor in post-season. I think the emergence of Rodriquez the last 2 months as well as how well Buchholz is pitching means they will go 2nd tier offseason and keep their top prospects. Regardless, there is no way I trade sale for a very good prospect who is out for the year w a knee injury and Moncada who really needs a year in AAA since he is struggling offensively and defensively. maybe that is because he skipped AAA but he is a concern right now for them.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 08:29 PM) I'd agree if the market was flush with starting pitching, but it's not. There are simply too many competive teams out there for us not to get a quality package. Now, I'm not expecting JBJ or Mookie Betts from the Red Sox, but I still think they have the minor league pieces to get a deal done. And they may reconsider a Moncada/Benintendi/prospects for Sale deal this offseason depending how their rotation does in the playoffs. Also, the Red Sox can always use their financial muscle to sign position players to make up for any prospects they give up in a deal for Chris. His contract is still valuable to big market teams. I also think the Cubs being as good as they are may help us. NL contenders will need to load up in order to be competitive with them. A team like the Pirates may decide it's time to add an ace to their young core and they have the minor league pieces to get a deal done. The Dodgers & Nationals are also flush with talent. I can't give you specific names, but if we're willing to focus on prospects or guys recently called up (like the Yankees' Sanchez), I think we should be able to get a quality deal done. I think people expecting an established superstar plus prospects are fooling themselves. So you would take a package of Moncada and Benintendi + for Sale. Neither player has even played a game in AAA. Benintendi played very well for a month then twisted his knee and will probably not return this year. Moncada has struggled his first week defensively but he is only learning 3rd base. He sat out yesterday after striking out 8 straight times in his first week. Sorry, I am not trading a Top 5 pitcher for two outstanding prospects who may or may not be able to play in the majors next year. Betts is probably not happening, so JBJ has to be in the package. But I am on record that Boston will want a second tier pitcher based on their 2nd half success.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 04:15 PM) The higher injury risk with Sale and the fact that Quintana seems to be undervalued compared to other pitchers in the league for what he gives a team. He has less value. If you have been a reader of this board the last 3 years, you have easily seen 50+ posts of people saying they are going to( or excited about) a game Sale is pitching. It is rare to see someone say they chose to go to a game Q was pitching. For those who are able to attend games, what would be the guess on the % of Sale vs Q jerseys??

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 02:12 PM) I agree about the ceiling. I don't think we're going to be able to do much better than the packages Cameron threw around at the deadline (Moncada/Kopech/B prospect, Benintendi/Devers/B Prospect, or Urias/Verdugo/B Prospect). Could get one big piece, but I'm doubtful that two big pieces are going to happen (ie: Moncada and Benintendi together). But I would never do those packages. For example, Benintendi came up and was really good offensively and defensively before he got hurt. Moncada has been awful offensively and challenged defensively playing a pretty new position. Neither has showed success at AAA since they each skipped it. Even together w prospects I do not trade Sale for them. Boston would have to throw in Bradley or Betts and I don't see that happening since now they will most likely make the playoffs and their starting pitching has really improved 2nd half. I would trade Rodon for both but Boston would probably not do it. I would be on the fence for Q if they included both and several other quality prospects.

I am not convinced there is a team willing or more likely able to give a major haul for Sale. I don't think Boston , New York or Dodgers will be willing to give up their core of young players now that all 3 are having solid 2nd halfs. I don't think Sale should be traded for prospects only. So I think in the end the Sox will not find a trade partner for Sale that will give them 4-5 MLB players/prospects in return.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:25 PM) He mentioned Melky, Robertson, Frazier, and Lawrie's contracts expiring soon. I would imagine they may be the first lined up out the door. Although if they do trade Frazier, I would hang on to Lawrie. He isn't going to bring much back, and has had nice stretches this year. You could put him at 3B, and hope he plays well enough to flip at the deadline if they aren't winning. It would really be radical to trade Sale and Q. I would imagine that is not the plan unless they get an offer they can't turn down. Lawrie had a couple of bad years defensively playing 3rd. I think because he is hurt and had a mediocre year they are forced to bring him back at 2nd.

QUOTE (NCsoxfan @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 12:42 PM) Finally finally it sounds like the Sox front office realizes you CANNOT try to contend by trading pieces from a weak farm system and signing free agents. Of course, reading that and agreeing seems obvious, but it practice they have actually believed that's a valid strategy. I am very content with a full rebuild, and only leaving guys like Anderson, Rodon, Burdi, Hansen, Collins. Might suck and it might not work, but we're at that point. I would assume that a full rebuild would also mean changing the way they run their business. Scouts and minor league personnel should also see turnover as well. That should be the first indication they are serious. Before you start acquiring young talent you need people in place to work with them.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 08:21 AM) Boras is going to get $10 million for Wieters from SOMEONE. $15 million for Fowler for one year. $7 million for Volquez. $8 million for Moreland. Actually doesn't Shields add as well. They only paid a partial on him this year but get the full load next year.

QUOTE (scs787 @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 09:09 PM) IMO, after reading one of the beat guys tweet out that the 2 teams were laying the ground work for an off-season trade, the Bo Sox just didn't wanna trade JBJ, or any major leaguer, mid season. Why "Lay the ground work for an off-season trade" and not just do it then? Either there is talks of a major leaguer or possibly a 2016 draft pick. Is Swihart bad defensively or do they just wanna get his bat in the lineup? Bad defensively. Now he has been hurt so I doubt he has any trade value

QUOTE (Hatchetman @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 08:16 PM) I think it was just stated: to retain his trade value if need be. I don't think they can afford to trade him unless it is in a deal where a SP is coming back. Ranaudo is really struggling so going into the spring starting pitching is once again up in the air. After the top 3 Shields, Miggy and Fulmer are leading the pack with Turner on the outside. Once again they will have to dumster dive for a 5th starter like last year and hope they strike gold.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 04:47 PM) Shields with apparent back problems. Is this a possible reason for such a bad season save for a month or so? Sad because he had some solid years in Tampa. Maybe he left his fastball there......... "Maybe Shields’ back really is bothering him, but this is what it would sound like even if he were 100 percent, because his South Side tenure has been the worst run in the history of White Sox starting pitching. He has no precedents when it comes to ERA (7.50), ERA+ (54) or home run rate (2.8 per nine innings), all of which are easily the worst in franchise history for a guy with at least 80 innings. Throw in a realistic bid at 20 losses, and further starts would be inhumane — more so for the fans, but for Shields, too, I guess. It looks more like a mercy flush than an injury, but those aren’t mutually exclusive outcomes, and it’s all the same in the end, anyway." http://www.southsidesox.com/2016/9/6/12812...ember-auditions

QUOTE (scs787 @ Sep 6, 2016 -> 08:35 AM) It'll never happen, but I would both buy and sell. Sign Rich Hill to really corner the SP market.....Trade Q to Boston for JBJ/Moncada/Swihart/Rodriguez.....Hope Shields retires.....Resign Morneau with intentions of potentially flipping him once Collins is ready. Sale-Hill-Rodon-Rodriguez-Gonzalez/Fulmer 1. Eaton RF 2. Anderson SS 3. JBJ CF 4. Abreu 1B 5. Morneau DH 6. Frazier 3B 7. Melky LF 8. Moncada 2B 9. Swihart C Add Burdi, Putnam, and Petricka to this disaster of a pen. If it fails again, then you trade Sale. Boston would not trade JBJ in a Sale package. Why would they do it for Q. They also will not trade Rodriguez in a package for a pitcher. Swihart is a left fielder and no longer a catcher. Boston's starting pitching has been really good since All Star braek. Dombrowski will probably look for a Hellickson or Gray deal.

1. Fire the person(s) who watched/scouted Shields and said trade for him.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 5, 2016 -> 09:00 PM) So why would these guys be the guys to tear it all down and start over? Seems that is a bigger disaster waiting to happen than adding middling players hoping it all works out. At least they have Sale and Quintana. Quintana is going on the White Sox cruise in November, so it doesn't appear the Sox think they will trade him. I am going to a season ticket holder event with Hahn tomorrow. I will report if he gives us anything. Not sure you read his post. His theory is to wait until next July and if the team is still struggling blow it up. He thinks the trade pieces will be worth more next July. Meanwhile go out this winter and get a C, CF, 5th starter and DH. I asked how will you acquire the first two w/o trading since it didn't work last winter. I also don't agree guys like Eaton, Frazier and Melky will be more valuable next July than they will be this off-season. Melky is having a better than career year for example.