SCCWS

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Sep 14, 2016 -> 10:49 PM) Rodon is not a #2 (a 3 or a 4), Gonzalez is a #5 and Shields shouldn't be anywhere near a major league rotation (and with a FO that was merely competent and lived in the real world, he wouldn't haven't been within 1500 miles of the White Sox rotation). True, but this FO actually traded for James Shields, despite clear evidence that he had nothing left. They created their own demise. Hahn's eye for talent (especially veteran talent) is laughably bad, but at least he has a scout at his side who's pretty good at evaluating young players. Thus I support some sort of rebuild. I would rather go out and hire the Detroit scout who saw that ultimately trading Avi for Iglesias was the way to go.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Sep 14, 2016 -> 12:19 PM) Trade Sale and Melky Cabrera to BoSox for CF Benintendi, C Blake Swihart, SP Eduardo Rodriguez, 3B Rafael Devers, 1B Josh Ockimey and LHP Brian Johnson. Trade Lawrie for a minor leaguer. Trade Coats and Jennings for Danny Valencia. Sign Josh Reddick 3 years 42 million Sign Kelly Johnson 1 year 3 million Sign Brett Cecil 3 years 14 million Sign Eric O'Flaherty 1 year 3 million 1.) L - RF Eaton - locked down for years 2.) R - DH/1B Valencia - needed OBP/power punch at DH 3.) L - CF Benintendi - Cornerstone CF 4.) R - 1B Abreu 5.) L - LF Reddick - Buy low free agents op could be traded 6.) R - 3B Frazier - Trade in July assuming team falters 7.) R - SS Anderson - Corner stone SS 8.) S/L - C Swihart/Narvaez - Catcher of the future 9.) R/L - 2B Saladino/Johnson - Let Saladino show what he has with some LH power behind him in case. Bench: C Narvaez, OF Tilson, INF Kelly Johnson, INF Sanchez 1.) Quintana 2.) Rodon 3.) Rodriguez 4.) Gonzalez 5.) Shields CP Robertson SU Jones SU Cecil MR O'Flaherty MR Putnam MR Petricka MR Ynoa/Kahnle Good post but I have a couple of thoughts: 1. I don't think Boston won't want Melky. But they might want Robertson. 2.You need more for Sale. Boston sent Swihart back to the minors to learn LF even though they really didn't have another good option at the time. Now he has been injured for several months and just had ankle surgery. Rodriquez is still iffy but I think Benintendi is the real deal. Instead I would swap out Vazquez for Swihart and offer Q instead of Sale. But as I have posted several times in other threads, I don't think Boston will trade their top prospects for starting pitching this offseason. I do think they will go for 2nd tier SP and bullpen arms

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 13, 2016 -> 02:29 PM) I just get mad when people can't see what I see: In Saladino I see a regular, everyday player. He's more than some once a week utility guy. Playing on a regular basis, he continues to hit. He needs to be an everyday player until he proves otherwise. By the way, Avi is also on a tear.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Sep 13, 2016 -> 09:37 AM) I don't think it does because you are penalizing them for something that isn't their fault. You might as well use pitching wins. They're both subjective. I agree but most stats especially in baseball are subjective. Sice we have hitter's parks and pitcher's parks, doesn't that penalize/reward players. Is it fair to say any Rockie hitter stats are skewed?? Many media people are talking Betts for MVP. But in fairness, he is hitting behind Ortiz and in front of ramirez who also are having monster seasons. So in fairness, Betts is putting up big numbers on a team where a lot of other people are as well. I think GWRBI is a very important stat but obviously it penalizes players on bad teams.

QUOTE (TheTruth05 @ Sep 13, 2016 -> 07:51 AM) I'm not directing this to anyone in specific but if Porcello wins then why should we care is Sale or Q ever win 1? It's basically the same as the gold glove and doesn't really reflect anything in today's baseball. I'll start caring about these awards when we start seeing advanced stats truly have significance of picking the winner of these things. One important factor everyone is leaving out. Pitching in big games. Unfortunately Q and Sale do not pitch in big games in August and September. Porcello and to some extent Kluber are. Porcello just beat Toronto on the road and goes against Orioles this week at home. So that is a factor that needs to be added to the mix.

QUOTE (Markbilliards @ Sep 12, 2016 -> 09:18 PM) Agreed on both counts. Unfortunately the voters are still too wrapped up in the thought that you must have the most wins and play for the most successful team to the best pitcher in baseball. I think Porcello wins it as well. I heard an announcer say this weekend that 20 wins is a big deal because you don't get a lot of 20 game winners like you used to. I also don't think Porcello is a top #1 starter going into the playoffs. It will be interesting to see how he performs in the post season when he is matched against other aces.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Sep 12, 2016 -> 11:40 AM) He was average defensively, probably better than anything the Sox have had in a while. They moved him to LF because they had a hole there with Holt hurt, Vasquez is further along defensively and it made sense to keep him there so they could get them both in the lineup. He may not have a real position. Benintendi obviously passed him on the depth chart for LF once Bradley took over center and moved Betts to right. But since he just had ankle surgery, his trade value will probably be questionable. His handling of pitchers was also questionable coming out of spring training.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Sep 11, 2016 -> 09:33 PM) That seems pretty serious. Hold onto your butts. Not sure how informed Levine is. Swihart was moved to left field in spring training. When he was called up it was a a left-fielder and that is where he played till he went on DL.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 11, 2016 -> 12:16 PM) Sale is definitely the guy you move first. Biggest name, best stuff, most dominant, & least control. Someone will give up a haul for him, including several pieces that plug holes immediately. Whether you go for full-blown rebuild (my preference) or partial rebuild (my prediction), moving him is an absolute must. Moving Quintana makes sense in a full-rebuild, but you've got to get fair value for him. I can see a scenario where you move Sale this offseason and Quintana either at the deadline or during the 2017/18 offseason to maximize their markets. It would also buy you some time to see how the prospects you got in trades this offseason are working out and whether or not holding onto Quintana makes sense (unlikely IMO). You definitely do NOT move Rodon right now. His value hasn't come close to peaking and with 5 years of control left, he still has a chance to be part of our next competive core. And if the rebuild takes longer than expected, you move him in a year or two when/if he's established himself as a top of the rotation stater. But my thinking is different because I say your whole premise is wrong. In the end, I think Sale will not be tradeable. The White Sox want a "haul" for him( which is valid) and I don't see a viable trading partner. We saw Boston was not really close in their discussion at the trade deadline and their 2nd half success makes them even less likely. Dodgers are also doing well and are less apt to tear their system apart. Yankees are going young already and I doubt they are not reversing to go after Sale. Now maybe there is a major event that changes the existing landscape, i.e. Kershaw or Porcello getting a major injury and are out next year. But as things look, I think Sale will be back because the Sox will not find a team willing to deplete a bunch of their young players to get him Now if Hahn reverses and goes for say 2 established players or just 4 prospects that might do it but you lost a lot as well in that type of deal. So I think if you are going to take advantage of the SP market that will be over-valued, the choice are Q who gets you X or Rodon who gets you 60% of X

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 07:02 PM) How were any of those guys in any way comparable to the talent of our core six? It's not even close. Miller is the best left-handed reliever in baseball. He just brought back to Yankees 4 prospects from Cleveland including 2 of their top 3. Iglesias is one of the best( some rate him #1) defensive shortstops in baseball as well as a career .275 hitter.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 06:03 PM) They also had Lester, and now they have Price and spent for Ramirez, Porcello, Sandoval, etc. The irony is that the low priced additions like Victorino, Napoli and Koji Uehara were the key according to most in 2013. You also have the best season historicallly for a 40 year old in mlb history and $63 million spent on Moncada, not to mention more money for Rusney Castillo. Not comparable situations at all unless you put Epstein, Cherington or Dombrowski in charge and gave the unlimited budgets. And they were still last 3/4 years, but 2016 is mitigating some of those struggles already. No they won it all in 2013 so two down years and back contending again . Agree they are in a different world but the poster asked who has rebuilded w a core of youth in last 10 years. They spent money in free agency and had a farm system bloated w talent.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 04:48 PM) Again, I don't know why you would trade Quintana and Rodon for prospects while holding Sale. That sets you up to rebuild for 1-2 years and then have Sale walk as a free agent right when your team is getting good. If you want to rebuild - you send Sale and Quintana out to look for guys that will help your team in 2-3 years. If you want to win right now, you look at trading Fulmer and perhaps Rodon to get better right now. This is the only case where it would make sense to trade Rodon - you're willing to give up a future ace because you need another ace right now. Trading Rodon and Quintana for prospects makes holding Sale really odd. You didn't read. I wrote you choose between Q and Rodon not trade both. The question I have is does Rodon have enough value to fill a couple of holes on the roster vs trading Q who fills holes but creates a void as #2 starter.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 03:54 PM) What players did they trade as young, talented, and controlled as the core six I mentioned? Boston traded Felix Doubront, Andrew Miller ( who they got for Josh Reddick), Jose Iglesias, Will Middlebrooks, Daniel Nava as well as several veterans as part of a total roster rebuild. It looks like it worked. Nobody is saying you trade the core 6. But you trade from strength and the only strength this team has is young starting pitching. I doubt you are able to trade Sale so he stays. Anderson is too valuable to trade. Abreu stays since his value to Sox may be more than what he returns in a trade. You shop Q, Rodon and even Fulmer to see what the market offers and trade one to fill some holes on the roster. See what Frazier, Melky, Robertson, Jones and Eaton are worth. I think Lawrie and Shields are also not worth trading due to value. Maybe Robertson and Jones are in the same category

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 03:44 PM) Trading Rodon (Under team control for 5 years) for prospects while holding onto guys under team control for 3 and 4 years seems totally backwards. If you're trading Rodon, you want a top flight guy who makes you better right now, while you still have those other 2 guys. Agree. I don't think Sale is really trade-able so you choose between Q who probably gets you 3 pieces in return and Rodon who now may get you 2. You still have other pieces to trade like Roberton, Frazier etc that could add additional young players and prospects. Hopefully the demand for pitching will be over-valued this winter and the Sox have at least 2 very tradeable young pitchers.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 01:52 PM) Name one team in the past 10 years that has undertaken a full rebuild with a core as young, talented, and cost controlled as Sale, Q, Rodon, Anderson, Eaton, and Abreu. In 2013 Boston won the World Series and had Pedroia, Bradley, Bogaerts, Buchholtz and Ortiz. Had two down years but totally rebuilt their roster Through FA, trades and their farm they rebuilt their bullpen, starting pitching, catchers, RF, IB, 3B, LF.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 10:25 PM) Really pumped about the emergence of Rodon. Looks better and better each time out. He's looking like an ace in the making and possibly as soon as next season. That rotation is downright nasty if they get that #5 spot tightened up. Hopefully he keeps it up and his trade value is enough that the Sox can trade him this winter for a couple of prospects and keep Q and Sale.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 09:03 AM) The Sox look to extend their winning streak to 4 games at home and keep playing the spoiler role. KC won't be making the wildcard. Too many teams ahead of them in the race.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 01:45 PM) In a general sense, one thing I see looking at this team is some really low hanging fruit that can improve the team VERY quickly. The performances that we got out of John Danks/ James Shields/ Raunando is something that can be improved upon greatly, without a significant move. The offense is another spot that is just begging for big improvement all of the diamond. The question would be how do you utilize resources to get those players, and that is what people get paid the big dollars for. But I would content that there are some spots were a lot of improvement can be found. But that was the same problem last year w Dank's performance and they addressed it w back-ups in Turner and Latos. So it is certainly fixable but not going after scrap heap types. It may take trading an asset ( Melky?) to get a legit 4/5 starter. But that opens another hole.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 10:12 AM) Matt Davidson and Avi Garcia should be red flags in regards to anyone thinking these guys are better at identifying minor league talent. or in James Shields case maybe that person got promoted to scouting ML talent.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 11:07 PM) Yes, I'd easily take a package built around those two. I'd also like Kopech and a few other prospects, but there's no doubt I'd make that type of deal. And IMO, the Red Sox really might consider doing it depending on how their pitching does in the playoffs. Pomeranz has been a disappointment so far and other than Price, I'm not sure they have a starter with elite stuff that you'd like in October. And as great as Moncada & Benintendi are as prospects (and they're great), they're somewhat expendable for Boston. They still have Devers in the pipeline for 3B and could sign a free agent OF to replace Andrew. Throw in the fact that the Yankees could be major players for Sale and I could see the Red Sox being very interested this offseason. Well Porcello is their #1 and he probably wins Cy Young. Pomeranz is their 5th starter so he is not a factor in post-season. I think the emergence of Rodriquez the last 2 months as well as how well Buchholz is pitching means they will go 2nd tier offseason and keep their top prospects. Regardless, there is no way I trade sale for a very good prospect who is out for the year w a knee injury and Moncada who really needs a year in AAA since he is struggling offensively and defensively. maybe that is because he skipped AAA but he is a concern right now for them.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 08:29 PM) I'd agree if the market was flush with starting pitching, but it's not. There are simply too many competive teams out there for us not to get a quality package. Now, I'm not expecting JBJ or Mookie Betts from the Red Sox, but I still think they have the minor league pieces to get a deal done. And they may reconsider a Moncada/Benintendi/prospects for Sale deal this offseason depending how their rotation does in the playoffs. Also, the Red Sox can always use their financial muscle to sign position players to make up for any prospects they give up in a deal for Chris. His contract is still valuable to big market teams. I also think the Cubs being as good as they are may help us. NL contenders will need to load up in order to be competitive with them. A team like the Pirates may decide it's time to add an ace to their young core and they have the minor league pieces to get a deal done. The Dodgers & Nationals are also flush with talent. I can't give you specific names, but if we're willing to focus on prospects or guys recently called up (like the Yankees' Sanchez), I think we should be able to get a quality deal done. I think people expecting an established superstar plus prospects are fooling themselves. So you would take a package of Moncada and Benintendi + for Sale. Neither player has even played a game in AAA. Benintendi played very well for a month then twisted his knee and will probably not return this year. Moncada has struggled his first week defensively but he is only learning 3rd base. He sat out yesterday after striking out 8 straight times in his first week. Sorry, I am not trading a Top 5 pitcher for two outstanding prospects who may or may not be able to play in the majors next year. Betts is probably not happening, so JBJ has to be in the package. But I am on record that Boston will want a second tier pitcher based on their 2nd half success.

QUOTE (soxforlife05 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 04:15 PM) The higher injury risk with Sale and the fact that Quintana seems to be undervalued compared to other pitchers in the league for what he gives a team. He has less value. If you have been a reader of this board the last 3 years, you have easily seen 50+ posts of people saying they are going to( or excited about) a game Sale is pitching. It is rare to see someone say they chose to go to a game Q was pitching. For those who are able to attend games, what would be the guess on the % of Sale vs Q jerseys??

QUOTE (OmarComing25 @ Sep 8, 2016 -> 02:12 PM) I agree about the ceiling. I don't think we're going to be able to do much better than the packages Cameron threw around at the deadline (Moncada/Kopech/B prospect, Benintendi/Devers/B Prospect, or Urias/Verdugo/B Prospect). Could get one big piece, but I'm doubtful that two big pieces are going to happen (ie: Moncada and Benintendi together). But I would never do those packages. For example, Benintendi came up and was really good offensively and defensively before he got hurt. Moncada has been awful offensively and challenged defensively playing a pretty new position. Neither has showed success at AAA since they each skipped it. Even together w prospects I do not trade Sale for them. Boston would have to throw in Bradley or Betts and I don't see that happening since now they will most likely make the playoffs and their starting pitching has really improved 2nd half. I would trade Rodon for both but Boston would probably not do it. I would be on the fence for Q if they included both and several other quality prospects.

I am not convinced there is a team willing or more likely able to give a major haul for Sale. I don't think Boston , New York or Dodgers will be willing to give up their core of young players now that all 3 are having solid 2nd halfs. I don't think Sale should be traded for prospects only. So I think in the end the Sox will not find a trade partner for Sale that will give them 4-5 MLB players/prospects in return.

QUOTE (Dick Allen @ Sep 7, 2016 -> 01:25 PM) He mentioned Melky, Robertson, Frazier, and Lawrie's contracts expiring soon. I would imagine they may be the first lined up out the door. Although if they do trade Frazier, I would hang on to Lawrie. He isn't going to bring much back, and has had nice stretches this year. You could put him at 3B, and hope he plays well enough to flip at the deadline if they aren't winning. It would really be radical to trade Sale and Q. I would imagine that is not the plan unless they get an offer they can't turn down. Lawrie had a couple of bad years defensively playing 3rd. I think because he is hurt and had a mediocre year they are forced to bring him back at 2nd.