SCCWS

QUOTE (harkness @ Sep 17, 2016 -> 10:11 PM) another strong outing by Gonzalez. He, Saladino and Anderson are three players who most expected little contributions this season . But all 3 should go into next year with a bright outlook.

QUOTE (elrockinMT @ Sep 16, 2016 -> 04:40 PM) I think they looked at the veteran in Rollins when making their starting SS decision. I always liked Saladino and I think Rollins was meant to be almost a player/coach to help the SS youngsters. The Sox got away from that. Saladino was penciled in as the super IF sub. The injury to Lawrie changed that. Really a question of what do they plan for 2017. If Lawrie is healthy I think he starts at 2B and Anderson at SS and Frazier at 3B. Saladino returns to the super IF sub role. Now if we trade Lawrie then Sally starts and Garcia and Sanchez play the super role I am not sure of lawrie's contract status. But I doubt Lawrie has any value since he has been out so long. I would guess they bring him back and hope he has some value next July when the trade deadline approaches.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Sep 16, 2016 -> 09:46 AM) You keep using losses as your reasoning, so I guess I do feel differently. Boston backed away from one injured guy and moved right on to another, and you are acting like they are smart for it because WINS Shields has been god awful, there is no way around that. but at the time of the trade he had 1 bad start the entire season, the 10 run crap start before he was traded. Look at his game logs http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/...p&year=2016 Mostly QS until the last start Look at the ERA. There is a difference of 2 runs per game for guys on the same pitching staff. Pomeranz was having a good year and was on a good stretch when he was traded.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Sep 15, 2016 -> 10:41 PM) Actually there isn't much of a difference. Before the ten run game, he gave up 2, 3, and 0 runs. So let's stop acting like prior to the one ten run outing there were tons of red flags, Shields was actually pretty decent. Both Sox seem to have gotten swindled by Preller Pomeranz was 8-7 w a 2.47 ERA. He won his last 4 starts before trade deadline. Shields was 2-7 w a 4.28 ERA and lost his last 3 starts. That is a huge difference in my opinion but I guess you and Hahn both felt differently. More importantly Shields's fastball had lost velocity which was the main reason Boston backed away. So should the White Sox.

QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Sep 15, 2016 -> 05:22 PM) This is kind of funny when Boston actually got swindled with Pomeranz. So I guess they aren't all that much smarter Actually there is a big difference. Before they were traded, Pomeranz had won his last 4 starts. So visually there was no sign of injury. But Shields was struggling before his trade having lost 3 straight with the last loss the 10 run-2 inning outing.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 15, 2016 -> 03:39 PM) I don't recall it from before, but he has looked like he is constantly trying to stretch out his back when he is out there. Just a reminder that Boston was hot for Shields before the deadline. But Boston press said Red Sox decided against it after seeing his overall drop in velocity on his fastball by I think 2 -3 Mph. It was also noted at the time he was giving up a lot of fly balls and Boston felt he would not be effective in Fenway. So I think if Boston saw he was struggling and passed on him, we don't have much to complain about.

QUOTE (Dunt @ Sep 15, 2016 -> 11:22 AM) I honestly think this plan of action would get the Sox back into contention the fastest. That Sale package is the realistic type of package I imagine they are going to get for him and I'd be ok with it for the most part. Not in love with either Rodriguez or Swihart, but those are the type of pieces that make sense in a trade like this. If the Sox could get Travis Shaw instead of Swihart, I like the package a lot more. Benintendi and Devers as a centerpiece for the trade would excite me greatly though. Wondering why you would want Shaw instead of Vazquez??? I do think both will be available. Shaw has played 3rd because Ramirez bumped him off 1st and Panda was hurt but he has been poor defensively. He would be a solid bat as a back-up to Abreu and back-up at DH but I think I would want better ( starter) if Sale is involved.

QUOTE (GreenSox @ Sep 14, 2016 -> 10:49 PM) Rodon is not a #2 (a 3 or a 4), Gonzalez is a #5 and Shields shouldn't be anywhere near a major league rotation (and with a FO that was merely competent and lived in the real world, he wouldn't haven't been within 1500 miles of the White Sox rotation). True, but this FO actually traded for James Shields, despite clear evidence that he had nothing left. They created their own demise. Hahn's eye for talent (especially veteran talent) is laughably bad, but at least he has a scout at his side who's pretty good at evaluating young players. Thus I support some sort of rebuild. I would rather go out and hire the Detroit scout who saw that ultimately trading Avi for Iglesias was the way to go.

QUOTE (raBBit @ Sep 14, 2016 -> 12:19 PM) Trade Sale and Melky Cabrera to BoSox for CF Benintendi, C Blake Swihart, SP Eduardo Rodriguez, 3B Rafael Devers, 1B Josh Ockimey and LHP Brian Johnson. Trade Lawrie for a minor leaguer. Trade Coats and Jennings for Danny Valencia. Sign Josh Reddick 3 years 42 million Sign Kelly Johnson 1 year 3 million Sign Brett Cecil 3 years 14 million Sign Eric O'Flaherty 1 year 3 million 1.) L - RF Eaton - locked down for years 2.) R - DH/1B Valencia - needed OBP/power punch at DH 3.) L - CF Benintendi - Cornerstone CF 4.) R - 1B Abreu 5.) L - LF Reddick - Buy low free agents op could be traded 6.) R - 3B Frazier - Trade in July assuming team falters 7.) R - SS Anderson - Corner stone SS 8.) S/L - C Swihart/Narvaez - Catcher of the future 9.) R/L - 2B Saladino/Johnson - Let Saladino show what he has with some LH power behind him in case. Bench: C Narvaez, OF Tilson, INF Kelly Johnson, INF Sanchez 1.) Quintana 2.) Rodon 3.) Rodriguez 4.) Gonzalez 5.) Shields CP Robertson SU Jones SU Cecil MR O'Flaherty MR Putnam MR Petricka MR Ynoa/Kahnle Good post but I have a couple of thoughts: 1. I don't think Boston won't want Melky. But they might want Robertson. 2.You need more for Sale. Boston sent Swihart back to the minors to learn LF even though they really didn't have another good option at the time. Now he has been injured for several months and just had ankle surgery. Rodriquez is still iffy but I think Benintendi is the real deal. Instead I would swap out Vazquez for Swihart and offer Q instead of Sale. But as I have posted several times in other threads, I don't think Boston will trade their top prospects for starting pitching this offseason. I do think they will go for 2nd tier SP and bullpen arms

QUOTE (greg775 @ Sep 13, 2016 -> 02:29 PM) I just get mad when people can't see what I see: In Saladino I see a regular, everyday player. He's more than some once a week utility guy. Playing on a regular basis, he continues to hit. He needs to be an everyday player until he proves otherwise. By the way, Avi is also on a tear.

QUOTE (Y2JImmy0 @ Sep 13, 2016 -> 09:37 AM) I don't think it does because you are penalizing them for something that isn't their fault. You might as well use pitching wins. They're both subjective. I agree but most stats especially in baseball are subjective. Sice we have hitter's parks and pitcher's parks, doesn't that penalize/reward players. Is it fair to say any Rockie hitter stats are skewed?? Many media people are talking Betts for MVP. But in fairness, he is hitting behind Ortiz and in front of ramirez who also are having monster seasons. So in fairness, Betts is putting up big numbers on a team where a lot of other people are as well. I think GWRBI is a very important stat but obviously it penalizes players on bad teams.

QUOTE (TheTruth05 @ Sep 13, 2016 -> 07:51 AM) I'm not directing this to anyone in specific but if Porcello wins then why should we care is Sale or Q ever win 1? It's basically the same as the gold glove and doesn't really reflect anything in today's baseball. I'll start caring about these awards when we start seeing advanced stats truly have significance of picking the winner of these things. One important factor everyone is leaving out. Pitching in big games. Unfortunately Q and Sale do not pitch in big games in August and September. Porcello and to some extent Kluber are. Porcello just beat Toronto on the road and goes against Orioles this week at home. So that is a factor that needs to be added to the mix.

QUOTE (Markbilliards @ Sep 12, 2016 -> 09:18 PM) Agreed on both counts. Unfortunately the voters are still too wrapped up in the thought that you must have the most wins and play for the most successful team to the best pitcher in baseball. I think Porcello wins it as well. I heard an announcer say this weekend that 20 wins is a big deal because you don't get a lot of 20 game winners like you used to. I also don't think Porcello is a top #1 starter going into the playoffs. It will be interesting to see how he performs in the post season when he is matched against other aces.

QUOTE (IowaSoxFan @ Sep 12, 2016 -> 11:40 AM) He was average defensively, probably better than anything the Sox have had in a while. They moved him to LF because they had a hole there with Holt hurt, Vasquez is further along defensively and it made sense to keep him there so they could get them both in the lineup. He may not have a real position. Benintendi obviously passed him on the depth chart for LF once Bradley took over center and moved Betts to right. But since he just had ankle surgery, his trade value will probably be questionable. His handling of pitchers was also questionable coming out of spring training.

QUOTE (soxfan2014 @ Sep 11, 2016 -> 09:33 PM) That seems pretty serious. Hold onto your butts. Not sure how informed Levine is. Swihart was moved to left field in spring training. When he was called up it was a a left-fielder and that is where he played till he went on DL.

QUOTE (Chicago White Sox @ Sep 11, 2016 -> 12:16 PM) Sale is definitely the guy you move first. Biggest name, best stuff, most dominant, & least control. Someone will give up a haul for him, including several pieces that plug holes immediately. Whether you go for full-blown rebuild (my preference) or partial rebuild (my prediction), moving him is an absolute must. Moving Quintana makes sense in a full-rebuild, but you've got to get fair value for him. I can see a scenario where you move Sale this offseason and Quintana either at the deadline or during the 2017/18 offseason to maximize their markets. It would also buy you some time to see how the prospects you got in trades this offseason are working out and whether or not holding onto Quintana makes sense (unlikely IMO). You definitely do NOT move Rodon right now. His value hasn't come close to peaking and with 5 years of control left, he still has a chance to be part of our next competive core. And if the rebuild takes longer than expected, you move him in a year or two when/if he's established himself as a top of the rotation stater. But my thinking is different because I say your whole premise is wrong. In the end, I think Sale will not be tradeable. The White Sox want a "haul" for him( which is valid) and I don't see a viable trading partner. We saw Boston was not really close in their discussion at the trade deadline and their 2nd half success makes them even less likely. Dodgers are also doing well and are less apt to tear their system apart. Yankees are going young already and I doubt they are not reversing to go after Sale. Now maybe there is a major event that changes the existing landscape, i.e. Kershaw or Porcello getting a major injury and are out next year. But as things look, I think Sale will be back because the Sox will not find a team willing to deplete a bunch of their young players to get him Now if Hahn reverses and goes for say 2 established players or just 4 prospects that might do it but you lost a lot as well in that type of deal. So I think if you are going to take advantage of the SP market that will be over-valued, the choice are Q who gets you X or Rodon who gets you 60% of X

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 07:02 PM) How were any of those guys in any way comparable to the talent of our core six? It's not even close. Miller is the best left-handed reliever in baseball. He just brought back to Yankees 4 prospects from Cleveland including 2 of their top 3. Iglesias is one of the best( some rate him #1) defensive shortstops in baseball as well as a career .275 hitter.

QUOTE (caulfield12 @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 06:03 PM) They also had Lester, and now they have Price and spent for Ramirez, Porcello, Sandoval, etc. The irony is that the low priced additions like Victorino, Napoli and Koji Uehara were the key according to most in 2013. You also have the best season historicallly for a 40 year old in mlb history and $63 million spent on Moncada, not to mention more money for Rusney Castillo. Not comparable situations at all unless you put Epstein, Cherington or Dombrowski in charge and gave the unlimited budgets. And they were still last 3/4 years, but 2016 is mitigating some of those struggles already. No they won it all in 2013 so two down years and back contending again . Agree they are in a different world but the poster asked who has rebuilded w a core of youth in last 10 years. They spent money in free agency and had a farm system bloated w talent.

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 04:48 PM) Again, I don't know why you would trade Quintana and Rodon for prospects while holding Sale. That sets you up to rebuild for 1-2 years and then have Sale walk as a free agent right when your team is getting good. If you want to rebuild - you send Sale and Quintana out to look for guys that will help your team in 2-3 years. If you want to win right now, you look at trading Fulmer and perhaps Rodon to get better right now. This is the only case where it would make sense to trade Rodon - you're willing to give up a future ace because you need another ace right now. Trading Rodon and Quintana for prospects makes holding Sale really odd. You didn't read. I wrote you choose between Q and Rodon not trade both. The question I have is does Rodon have enough value to fill a couple of holes on the roster vs trading Q who fills holes but creates a void as #2 starter.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 03:54 PM) What players did they trade as young, talented, and controlled as the core six I mentioned? Boston traded Felix Doubront, Andrew Miller ( who they got for Josh Reddick), Jose Iglesias, Will Middlebrooks, Daniel Nava as well as several veterans as part of a total roster rebuild. It looks like it worked. Nobody is saying you trade the core 6. But you trade from strength and the only strength this team has is young starting pitching. I doubt you are able to trade Sale so he stays. Anderson is too valuable to trade. Abreu stays since his value to Sox may be more than what he returns in a trade. You shop Q, Rodon and even Fulmer to see what the market offers and trade one to fill some holes on the roster. See what Frazier, Melky, Robertson, Jones and Eaton are worth. I think Lawrie and Shields are also not worth trading due to value. Maybe Robertson and Jones are in the same category

QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 03:44 PM) Trading Rodon (Under team control for 5 years) for prospects while holding onto guys under team control for 3 and 4 years seems totally backwards. If you're trading Rodon, you want a top flight guy who makes you better right now, while you still have those other 2 guys. Agree. I don't think Sale is really trade-able so you choose between Q who probably gets you 3 pieces in return and Rodon who now may get you 2. You still have other pieces to trade like Roberton, Frazier etc that could add additional young players and prospects. Hopefully the demand for pitching will be over-valued this winter and the Sox have at least 2 very tradeable young pitchers.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 01:52 PM) Name one team in the past 10 years that has undertaken a full rebuild with a core as young, talented, and cost controlled as Sale, Q, Rodon, Anderson, Eaton, and Abreu. In 2013 Boston won the World Series and had Pedroia, Bradley, Bogaerts, Buchholtz and Ortiz. Had two down years but totally rebuilt their roster Through FA, trades and their farm they rebuilt their bullpen, starting pitching, catchers, RF, IB, 3B, LF.

QUOTE (JUSTgottaBELIEVE @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 10:25 PM) Really pumped about the emergence of Rodon. Looks better and better each time out. He's looking like an ace in the making and possibly as soon as next season. That rotation is downright nasty if they get that #5 spot tightened up. Hopefully he keeps it up and his trade value is enough that the Sox can trade him this winter for a couple of prospects and keep Q and Sale.

QUOTE (CaliSoxFanViaSWside @ Sep 10, 2016 -> 09:03 AM) The Sox look to extend their winning streak to 4 games at home and keep playing the spoiler role. KC won't be making the wildcard. Too many teams ahead of them in the race.

QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Sep 9, 2016 -> 01:45 PM) In a general sense, one thing I see looking at this team is some really low hanging fruit that can improve the team VERY quickly. The performances that we got out of John Danks/ James Shields/ Raunando is something that can be improved upon greatly, without a significant move. The offense is another spot that is just begging for big improvement all of the diamond. The question would be how do you utilize resources to get those players, and that is what people get paid the big dollars for. But I would content that there are some spots were a lot of improvement can be found. But that was the same problem last year w Dank's performance and they addressed it w back-ups in Turner and Latos. So it is certainly fixable but not going after scrap heap types. It may take trading an asset ( Melky?) to get a legit 4/5 starter. But that opens another hole.