Jon Heyman: Sox have little interest in moving Sale or Quintana

[ChiSox59]

I agree about the ceiling. I don't think we're going to be able to do much better than the packages Cameron threw around at the deadline (Moncada/Kopech/B prospect, Benintendi/Devers/B Prospect, or Urias/Verdugo/B Prospect). Could get one big piece, but I'm doubtful that two big pieces are going to happen (ie: Moncada and Benintendi together).

 

I just don't think those packages are worth trading Sale for.

[southsider2k5]

I am not convinced there is a team willing or more likely able to give a major haul for Sale. I don't think Boston , New York or Dodgers will be willing to give up their core of young players now that all 3 are having solid 2nd halfs. I don't think Sale should be traded for prospects only. So I think in the end the Sox will not find a trade partner for Sale that will give them 4-5 MLB players/prospects in return.

 

There are going to be 29 teams that don't win the World Series, including multiple teams out of the group of the Yankees, Dodgers, Red Sox, and Rangers who are deepest in their farm systems. It only takes one to make the move, or another to push the bidding up.

[SCCWS]

I agree about the ceiling. I don't think we're going to be able to do much better than the packages Cameron threw around at the deadline (Moncada/Kopech/B prospect, Benintendi/Devers/B Prospect, or Urias/Verdugo/B Prospect). Could get one big piece, but I'm doubtful that two big pieces are going to happen (ie: Moncada and Benintendi together).

 

But I would never do those packages. For example, Benintendi came up and was really good offensively and defensively before he got hurt. Moncada has been awful offensively and challenged defensively playing a pretty new position. Neither has showed success at AAA since they each skipped it. Even together w prospects I do not trade Sale for them. Boston would have to throw in Bradley or Betts and I don't see that happening since now they will most likely make the playoffs and their starting pitching has really improved 2nd half.

 

I would trade Rodon for both but Boston would probably not do it. I would be on the fence for Q if they included both and several other quality prospects.

[OmarComing25]

But I would never do those packages. For example, Benintendi came up and was really good offensively and defensively before he got hurt. Moncada has been awful offensively and challenged defensively playing a pretty new position. Neither has showed success at AAA since they each skipped it. Even together w prospects I do not trade Sale for them. Boston would have to throw in Bradley or Betts and I don't see that happening since now they will most likely make the playoffs and their starting pitching has really improved 2nd half.

 

I would trade Rodon for both but Boston would probably not do it. I would be on the fence for Q if they included both and several other quality prospects.

I think we could do better than those packages but that's the baseline IMO. Maybe Kopech/Devers together or getting them to include E-Rod, but much beyond that I don't see it happening. Betts is an MVP candidate and Bradley is going to be a 5 WAR player this year, those guys are pipedreams.

[captain54]

So how do you define "time to tear it up" and "shake this disaster at its core"? You clearly do not want to wait until next July to "tear it up" so I can only assume you want to "shake this disaster at its core" this coming offseason?

 

You can read into it however you chose, but I interpret "tear it up" as abandoning the status quo and approach, as the Sox try to right the ship for the 2017 season.

 

apply a fresh attitude and, like most intelligent business enterprises do consistently, come up with a new battle plan when things don't work.. instead of trying to fabricate a million and one excuses and woulda-shoulda-couldas when you pick apart the last failed campaign…

 

and again, not really sure what is so hard for you to understand here.. trying to launch your primary rebuild mid-season isn't the wisest approach, because of the fact that teams in contention for the last couple of months, will be less likely to include establish ML'ers as part of any package….

 

 

[soxforlife05]

What's the point in moving Sale if you don't move Quintana? He's only signed for one additional year.

 

The higher injury risk with Sale and the fact that Quintana seems to be undervalued compared to other pitchers in the league for what he gives a team.

[SCCWS]

The higher injury risk with Sale and the fact that Quintana seems to be undervalued compared to other pitchers in the league for what he gives a team.

 

He has less value. If you have been a reader of this board the last 3 years, you have easily seen 50+ posts of people saying they are going to( or excited about) a game Sale is pitching. It is rare to see someone say they chose to go to a game Q was pitching. For those who are able to attend games, what would be the guess on the % of Sale vs Q jerseys??

[Hatchetman]

Does everyone get those email surveys from the White Sox as to why they go to games? I got one...just happened to be a Sale game. One of the questions was "Does the scheduled starting pitcher influence your decision to attend a game?" I said yes!

[Thad Bosley]

You can read into it however you chose, but I interpret "tear it up" as abandoning the status quo and approach, as the Sox try to right the ship for the 2017 season.

 

apply a fresh attitude and, like most intelligent business enterprises do consistently, come up with a new battle plan when things don't work.. instead of trying to fabricate a million and one excuses and woulda-shoulda-couldas when you pick apart the last failed campaign…

 

and again, not really sure what is so hard for you to understand here.. trying to launch your primary rebuild mid-season isn't the wisest approach, because of the fact that teams in contention for the last couple of months, will be less likely to include establish ML'ers as part of any package….

That is exactly what I meant by saying "tear it up", and you are correct, it ain't that hard of a concept to understand.

[Thad Bosley]

So how do you define "time to tear it up" and "shake this disaster at its core"? You clearly do not want to wait until next July to "tear it up" so I can only assume you want to "shake this disaster at its core" this coming offseason?

I certainly don't want to wait past this coming offseason, and all hints suggest that neither does Sox management.

[Jose Abreu]

The higher injury risk with Sale and the fact that Quintana seems to be undervalued compared to other pitchers in the league for what he gives a team.

Tired of hearing the "injury risk" of Sale as a reason teams would give up smaller packages for him or us trading him over Quintana. This is his 7th season. If he were that susceptible to injury, he would have missed more than just a few starts over his career.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

That is exactly what I meant by saying "tear it up", and you are correct, it ain't that hard of a concept to understand.

When I hear "tear it up" I hear trade Sale, Q, and all other vets on expiring contracts within the next two years. So what is YOUR plan then since I have seemingly misunderstood? Who specifically are you trading and what players are you getting back?

Edited September 8, 2016 by JUSTgottaBELIEVE

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

You can read into it however you chose, but I interpret "tear it up" as abandoning the status quo and approach, as the Sox try to right the ship for the 2017 season.

 

apply a fresh attitude and, like most intelligent business enterprises do consistently, come up with a new battle plan when things don't work.. instead of trying to fabricate a million and one excuses and woulda-shoulda-couldas when you pick apart the last failed campaign…

 

and again, not really sure what is so hard for you to understand here.. trying to launch your primary rebuild mid-season isn't the wisest approach, because of the fact that teams in contention for the last couple of months, will be less likely to include establish ML'ers as part of any package….

So what's the plan then? Who are we trading and what are we getting back? You can talk in generalities all you want but at least I have provided specific names for my plan to compete next year. What's your plan?

[captain54]

So what's the plan then? Who are we trading and what are we getting back? You can talk in generalities all you want but at least I have provided specific names for my plan to compete next year. What's your plan?

 

True, you've provided specific names.. but you've also predicated most of your scenarios on the fact the JR woke up from a dream and a vision one night, a vision where he magically and mystically increased Sox payroll from middling, at least upper middling…

 

Here's my plan.. I think YOU should be the GM .. screw Hahn, screw Kenny.. you're the man with the plan to take the Sox to the promised land… to walk the disgruntled and miserable fandom from the darkness...

 

It's funny how you're challenging people for names and specifics, when the folks who are actually being paid to make the deals, probably aren't even sure at this point what is and isn't on the table….

 

My Plan? Let's see the Sox let go of the fact that they are Kings of Baseball when it comes to having the sweetest cost controlled players in MLB…. Then, let's see the Sox make some SERIOUS efforts to get the best and I mean, best in the biz.. scouts and talent evaluators….

 

Then, let's make Kenny Williams accountable for every dumb silly ego driven football-type move he's ever made.. and ever dumb silly thing he's ever said…

 

Let's find a manager who didn't play for the Sox (Martinez being the possible exception) in the 80's, 90's or 00's.. who actually has some professional coaching or managerial experience…

 

Let's figure out what exactly Don Cooper is contributing to the organization at this point, and if there's another out there better…..

 

Let's find a hitting coach that absolutely refuses to let a player pick up a bat until that player has a plan against the given pitcher that day…

 

Let's analyze and pick apart our Central division opponents, and build a team around beating THEM, instead of building a team around a core of contract friendly, cost controlled players

 

And of course, as a priority, lets AGRESSIVELY shop both Sale and Quinana this offseason .. no, not mid season 2017.. THIS OFFSEASON.. and work from there.. the goal being an influx of properly evaluated young AND more established talent…

Edited September 8, 2016 by captain54

[Sleepy Harold]

True, you've provided specific names.. but you've also predicated most of your scenarios on the fact the JR woke up from a dream and a vision one night, a vision where he magically and mystically increased Sox payroll from middling, at least upper middling…

 

Here's my plan.. I think YOU should be the GM .. screw Hahn, screw Kenny.. you're the man with the plan to take the Sox to the promised land… to walk the disgruntled and miserable fandom from the darkness...

 

It's funny how you're challenging people for names and specifics, when the folks who are actually being paid to make the deals, probably aren't even sure at this point what is and isn't on the table….

 

My Plan? Let's see the Sox let go of the fact that they are Kings of Baseball when it comes to having the sweetest cost controlled players in MLB…. Then, let's see the Sox make some SERIOUS efforts to get the best and I mean, best in the biz.. scouts and talent evaluators….

 

Then, let's make Kenny Williams accountable for every dumb silly ego driven football-type move he's ever made.. and ever dumb silly thing he's ever said…

 

Let's find a manager who didn't play for the Sox (Martinez being the possible exception) in the 80's, 90's or 00's.. who actually has some professional coaching or managerial experience…

 

Let's figure out what exactly Don Cooper is contributing to the organization at this point, and if there's another out there better…..

 

Let's find a hitting coach that absolutely refuses to let a player pick up a bat until that player has a plan against the given pitcher that day…

 

And of course, as a priority, lets AGRESSIVELY shop both Sale and Quinana this offseason .. no, not mid season 2017.. THIS OFFSEASON.. and work from there.. the goal being an influx of properly evaluated young AND more established talent…

 

I couldn't agree more with the points you've touched on here. I can't take anymore of trying the same thing time after time and expecting a different result. It would be extremely refreshing to have a different approach to organizational processes and valuations that FINALLY start putting emphasis on areas the sox have been sorely lacking for quite a while now. I know watching games if a rebuild occurs may be tough for some seasons, but this "retool" charade that's been going on is just as tough to watch.

[Chicago White Sox]

For those arguing we may not get a haul for Sale, just look at the starting pitching market. Rich Hil, Jeremy Hellickson, & Andrew Cashner are the cream of the crop. Meanwhile, due to the second wild card, there will be tons of teams looking to compete and in need of pitching. Obviously nothing is a certainty, but we should be able to get an incredible package if our front office in executes properly.

[JUSTgottaBELIEVE]

True, you've provided specific names.. but you've also predicated most of your scenarios on the fact the JR woke up from a dream and a vision one night, a vision where he magically and mystically increased Sox payroll from middling, at least upper middling…

 

Here's my plan.. I think YOU should be the GM .. screw Hahn, screw Kenny.. you're the man with the plan to take the Sox to the promised land… to walk the disgruntled and miserable fandom from the darkness...

 

It's funny how you're challenging people for names and specifics, when the folks who are actually being paid to make the deals, probably aren't even sure at this point what is and isn't on the table….

 

My Plan? Let's see the Sox let go of the fact that they are Kings of Baseball when it comes to having the sweetest cost controlled players in MLB…. Then, let's see the Sox make some SERIOUS efforts to get the best and I mean, best in the biz.. scouts and talent evaluators….

 

Then, let's make Kenny Williams accountable for every dumb silly ego driven football-type move he's ever made.. and ever dumb silly thing he's ever said…

 

Let's find a manager who didn't play for the Sox (Martinez being the possible exception) in the 80's, 90's or 00's.. who actually has some professional coaching or managerial experience…

 

Let's figure out what exactly Don Cooper is contributing to the organization at this point, and if there's another out there better…..

 

Let's find a hitting coach that absolutely refuses to let a player pick up a bat until that player has a plan against the given pitcher that day…

 

Let's analyze and pick apart our Central division opponents, and build a team around beating THEM, instead of building a team around a core of contract friendly, cost controlled players

 

And of course, as a priority, lets AGRESSIVELY shop both Sale and Quinana this offseason .. no, not mid season 2017.. THIS OFFSEASON.. and work from there.. the goal being an influx of properly evaluated young AND more established talent…

Huh? The moves I suggested increase payroll to approximately 2011 levels. Why is that some sort of pipe dream? I'm not asking JR to spend $200MM next year or even $150MM.

 

I agree with everything you say about the front office, coaching staff, etc. No argument there.

 

I'm challenging the full rebuild crowd because I want to know how trading Sale and Q improves the outlook of this franchise over the next 5 years. So let's start with the basics. You are trading Sale and Q, what are you getting in return?

[OmarComing25]

For those arguing we may not get a haul for Sale, just look at the starting pitching market. Rich Hil, Jeremy Hellickson, & Andrew Cashner are the cream of the crop. Meanwhile, due to the second wild card, there will be tons of teams looking to compete and in need of pitching. Obviously nothing is a certainty, but we should be able to get an incredible package if our front office in executes properly.

What kind of package do you think is realistic? One thing that I fear is that the teams most well-equipped to trade for Sale (Red Sox/Dodgers) are teams where money isn't really an issue, so the cheap contracts of Sale/Quintana might not be as attractive to them as they would be to other clubs. They might also prefer to give up a lighter package for someone like Archer/Odorizzi/Teheran/Gray and hold on to their assets.

[Chicago White Sox]

What kind of package do you think is realistic? One thing that I fear is that the teams most well-equipped to trade for Sale (Red Sox/Dodgers) are teams where money isn't really an issue, so the cheap contracts of Sale/Quintana might not be as attractive to them as they would be to other clubs. They might also prefer to give up a lighter package for someone like Archer/Odorizzi/Teheran/Gray and hold on to their assets.

I'd agree if the market was flush with starting pitching, but it's not. There are simply too many competive teams out there for us not to get a quality package. Now, I'm not expecting JBJ or Mookie Betts from the Red Sox, but I still think they have the minor league pieces to get a deal done. And they may reconsider a Moncada/Benintendi/prospects for Sale deal this offseason depending how their rotation does in the playoffs. Also, the Red Sox can always use their financial muscle to sign position players to make up for any prospects they give up in a deal for Chris. His contract is still valuable to big market teams.

 

I also think the Cubs being as good as they are may help us. NL contenders will need to load up in order to be competitive with them. A team like the Pirates may decide it's time to add an ace to their young core and they have the minor league pieces to get a deal done. The Dodgers & Nationals are also flush with talent.

 

I can't give you specific names, but if we're willing to focus on prospects or guys recently called up (like the Yankees' Sanchez), I think we should be able to get a quality deal done. I think people expecting an established superstar plus prospects are fooling themselves.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Chicago White Sox

[SCCWS]

I'd agree if the market was flush with starting pitching, but it's not. There are simply too many competive teams out there for us not to get a quality package. Now, I'm not expecting JBJ or Mookie Betts from the Red Sox, but I still think they have the minor league pieces to get a deal done. And they may reconsider a Moncada/Benintendi/prospects for Sale deal this offseason depending how their rotation does in the playoffs. Also, the Red Sox can always use their financial muscle to sign position players to make up for any prospects they give up in a deal for Chris. His contract is still valuable to big market teams.

 

I also think the Cubs being as good as they are may help us. NL contenders will need to load up in order to be competitive with them. A team like the Pirates may decide it's time to add an ace to their young core and they have the minor league pieces to get a deal done. The Dodgers & Nationals are also flush with talent.

 

I can't give you specific names, but if we're willing to focus on prospects or guys recently called up (like the Yankees' Sanchez), I think we should be able to get a quality deal done. I think people expecting an established superstar plus prospects are fooling themselves.

 

So you would take a package of Moncada and Benintendi + for Sale. Neither player has even played a game in AAA. Benintendi played very well for a month then twisted his knee and will probably not return this year. Moncada has struggled his first week defensively but he is only learning 3rd base. He sat out yesterday after striking out 8 straight times in his first week. Sorry, I am not trading a Top 5 pitcher for two outstanding prospects who may or may not be able to play in the majors next year. Betts is probably not happening, so JBJ has to be in the package. But I am on record that Boston will want a second tier pitcher based on their 2nd half success.

 

[Chicago White Sox]

So you would take a package of Moncada and Benintendi + for Sale. Neither player has even played a game in AAA. Benintendi played very well for a month then twisted his knee and will probably not return this year. Moncada has struggled his first week defensively but he is only learning 3rd base. He sat out yesterday after striking out 8 straight times in his first week. Sorry, I am not trading a Top 5 pitcher for two outstanding prospects who may or may not be able to play in the majors next year. Betts is probably not happening, so JBJ has to be in the package. But I am on record that Boston will want a second tier pitcher based on their 2nd half success.

Yes, I'd easily take a package built around those two. I'd also like Kopech and a few other prospects, but there's no doubt I'd make that type of deal. And IMO, the Red Sox really might consider doing it depending on how their pitching does in the playoffs. Pomeranz has been a disappointment so far and other than Price, I'm not sure they have a starter with elite stuff that you'd like in October.

 

And as great as Moncada & Benintendi are as prospects (and they're great), they're somewhat expendable for Boston. They still have Devers in the pipeline for 3B and could sign a free agent OF to replace Andrew. Throw in the fact that the Yankees could be major players for Sale and I could see the Red Sox being very interested this offseason.

[caulfield12]

Yes, I'd easily take a package built around those two. I'd also like Kopech and a few other prospects, but there's no doubt I'd make that type of deal. And IMO, the Red Sox really might consider doing it depending on how their pitching does in the playoffs. Pomeranz has been a disappointment so far and other than Price, I'm not sure they have a starter with elite stuff that you'd like in October.

 

And as great as Moncada & Benintendi are as prospects (and they're great), they're somewhat expendable for Boston. They still have Devers in the pipeline for 3B and could sign a free agent OF to replace Andrew. Throw in the fact that the Yankees could be major players for Sale and I could see the Red Sox being very interested this offseason.

 

Price (and Kershaw) both have a LOT to prove this postseason....so I guess we have to root for a complete implosion of the Red Sox starting staff in the AL Divisional Series.

[Chicago White Sox]

Price (and Kershaw) both have a LOT to prove this postseason....so I guess we have to root for a complete implosion of the Red Sox starting staff in the AL Divisional Series.

That's what I'll be rooting for. If their pitching comes up short, they could get aggressive on Sale.

[caulfield12]

http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/sale-it...consider-trade/

 

Sox might be targeting young starting pitchers and relievers for Sale...

[Special K]

http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/sale-it...consider-trade/

 

Sox might be targeting young starting pitchers and relievers for Sale...

 

Makes sense given our history of being able to develop positional players who produce. At least I know we're in good hands with our front office if we do decide to sell.