Sox not in teams watching Otani

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Is he allowed to do a 3 year opt out and skip the standard 6 year service time? I thought that wasn't allowed.

That's what I said in one of my many posts 3yrs and an opt out. Not sure if the Cespedes comparison applies, since he was 25 at the time and under a different CBA. Unless you know more I can listen. I also used Cespedes as an example of how surprising things can happen but I didn't dare try to say their situations were the same .

[southsider2k5]

And yet you cannot point to 1 MLB contract ever voided after a successful 1st year of an international player in which a contract extension was offered.Other cases are not the same. As you said to me I will say to you unless you can find a similar player in similar circumstances you have no basis in reality. That is all we need to know. You are not a lawyer either. Nor am I. So we can argue about it until the cows come home. . It probably never happens but I think you and I won't be the only ones arguing this. We will see plenty of it soon enough.

 

I think there's a chance MLB would void such a contract but it holding up is another thing.

 

I will also add that 6 kids who sign for bonus money and have contributed nothing to a winning major league team is nothing like Otani having a good 1st season and contributing to the profitability of the parent club,

I don't accept those comparisons as valid.

 

I have given you examples, you keep choosing to ignore them for the idea that performance somehow outweighs contract law. Ask Joe Smith how that worked out for him.

 

It all boils down to one central theme. There are rules in place that govern contract negotiations for specific situations. MLB is already on record as saying they will protect the integrity of this process. MLB has already acted in a spot where the integrity of the process was violated by voiding contracts. The NBA has also acted in voiding the contract of a #1 draft pick superstar free agent who exactly in the scenario we are talking about today had a secondary contract negotiated in violation of the leagues collective bargaining agreement and saw his contract extension voided by the league.

 

Trying to imagine contract law as different because of some concocted scenario is what isn't valid. You cannot negotiate a major league contract extension while negotiating a minor league deal under the new collective bargaining agreement. Period. End of story. MLB is already on record as saying they won't allow it to happen. You are fully ignoring history here for no good reason. Unless you have some facts to back up your argument, this is all imaginary and not real.

[southsider2k5]

I think his only choice is something like an opt out after 3 years. He is taking a big chance financially, but if he can become a free agent after 3 seasons, and is any good, he may be one of the few who opt out that teams didn't regret re-signing.

 

The opt out IMO is at least some sort of advantage for teams. Most big money guys, you give them a contract the last couple of years you want no part of. The opt out eliminates that, if the team can walk away. They get the worth it seasons, and in most cases are given a gift. When the player wants more money.See Belle, Albert, Rodriquez, Alex, Sabattiia, Captain Cheeseburger. The White Sox were happy to let Albert go, the Yankees wish they let their guys go.This guy might be one of the exceptions.

 

When every one of those guys signed a deal with an opt out they were major league free agents. Otani is not. I can't recall a situation where a player who was signed as an amateur received an opt out deal where the opt out was before their 6 years of service was up. All players that have received that option were international players who were not in the lower age bracket for international free agents, they were all considered both professionally experienced AND old enough to sign a major league deal initially.

[Dick Allen]

When every one of those guys signed a deal with an opt out they were major league free agents. Otani is not. I can't recall a situation where a player who was signed as an amateur received an opt out deal where the opt out was before their 6 years of service was up. All players that have received that option were international players who were not in the lower age bracket for international free agents, they were all considered both professionally experienced AND old enough to sign a major league deal initially.

They still had zero service time in MLB. I don't see why it isn't negotiable, Otani is in his 5th season.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Dick Allen

[southsider2k5]

The still had zero service time in MLB. I don't see why it isn't negotiable

 

Because Otani can't sign a major league contract.

[Dick Allen]

Then he is insane to come over. He can wait 2 years and get 9 figures.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I have given you examples, you keep choosing to ignore them for the idea that performance somehow outweighs contract law. Ask Joe Smith how that worked out for him.

 

It all boils down to one central theme. There are rules in place that govern contract negotiations for specific situations. MLB is already on record as saying they will protect the integrity of this process. MLB has already acted in a spot where the integrity of the process was violated by voiding contracts. The NBA has also acted in voiding the contract of a #1 draft pick superstar free agent who exactly in the scenario we are talking about today had a secondary contract negotiated in violation of the leagues collective bargaining agreement and saw his contract extension voided by the league.

 

Trying to imagine contract law as different because of some concocted scenario is what isn't valid. You cannot negotiate a major league contract extension while negotiating a minor league deal under the new collective bargaining agreement. Period. End of story. MLB is already on record as saying they won't allow it to happen. You are fully ignoring history here for no good reason. Unless you have some facts to back up your argument, this is all imaginary and not real.

I have a distinct feeling that you would have argued for MLB in the Curt Flood and Andy Messersmith situations. MLB hasn't fared well when called to task about restricting earnings. I just want you to tell me you think that if Otani has a successful 1st year and gets an extension that MLB opposes that they will 100% void the deal and 100 % win a court case should one arise. I am perfectly willing to admit it's possible MLB wins because I am not one of the top labor law experts in the country but think I have more than held my own in these discussions with you.

Edited September 14, 2017 by CaliSoxFanViaSWside

[ptatc]

Otani to Sox talk seems extremely moot.

Wait, when did Soxtalk get that kind of money? Must be the new mods popularity.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Then he is insane to come over. He can wait 2 years and get 9 figures.

Well that is pretty much what everyone is saying. Otani says it's not about the money just playing against the best which is why every team is pretty equal in the chance to get him theoretically since he probably has his own ideas about who he would rather play for.

[ron883]

Wait, when did Soxtalk get that kind of money? Must be the new mods popularity.

My presence here has raised the valuation of soxtalk tenfold

[ptatc]

My presence here has raised the valuation of soxtalk tenfold

As good of a reason as any.

[Dick Allen]

Well that is pretty much what everyone is saying. Otani says it's not about the money just playing against the best which is why every team is pretty equal in the chance to get him theoretically since he probably has his own ideas about who he would rather play for.

I don't think every team is equal. The money might be the same, but people in Chicago don't watch the White Sox, it is hard to imagine this kid in Japan who was 11 the last time the Sox were an international story on the field has his eyes on the White Sox. . I would think this kid has a couple of favorite teams. It is hard seeing the White Sox or the Brewers or Pirates, or many other teams, on top of that list, so all things being equal, they more than likely have no shot. Being able to offer him more money would be that shot.

[Y2Jimmy0]

I have an article coming for FutureSox on this tomorrow. I would be stunned if the White Sox were even in the running for this. THey can pay him $300K. They can offer him a rotation spot and let him DH on off days. Other teams can do the same though. Teams like the Pirates and Rockies can offer him $10 million. Yanks, Boston, Texas can offer somewhere in the $3-$4 million range and still allow him to pitch and hit. The Cubs, Dodgers, Astros and Padres can offer $300K. That's it though. One team that makes a lot of sense for me: Los Angeles Angels. They can pay him close to $9 million and he'd still be on the West Coast. This process will be fascinating.

[GenericUserName]

I have an article coming for FutureSox on this tomorrow. I would be stunned if the White Sox were even in the running for this. THey can pay him $300K. They can offer him a rotation spot and let him DH on off days. Other teams can do the same though. Teams like the Pirates and Rockies can offer him $10 million. Yanks, Boston, Texas can offer somewhere in the $3-$4 million range and still allow him to pitch and hit. The Cubs, Dodgers, Astros and Padres can offer $300K. That's it though. One team that makes a lot of sense for me: Los Angeles Angels. They can pay him close to $9 million and he'd still be on the West Coast. This process will be fascinating.

 

The best player on the planet and a guy who has been compared to Babe Ruth on the same team? I'd watch that.

[Eminor3rd]

I have a distinct feeling that you would have argued for MLB in the Curt Flood and Andy Messersmith situations. MLB hasn't fared well when called to task about restricting earnings. I just want you to tell me you think that if Otani has a successful 1st year and gets an extension that MLB opposes that they will 100% void the deal and 100 % win a court case should one arise. I am perfectly willing to admit it's possible MLB wins because I am not one of the top labor law experts in the country but think I have more than held my own in these discussions with you.

 

MLB has fared EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY well in restricting earnings of players that are NOT in the Player's Union at the time of signing.

[Eminor3rd]

Then he is insane to come over. He can wait 2 years and get 9 figures.

 

Right, everyone's been saying that since the moment the new CBA info was released, but he insists he's coming anyway so it's a moot point.

[Eminor3rd]

Cespedes did.

 

 

That's what I said in one of my many posts 3yrs and an opt out. Not sure if the Cespedes comparison applies, since he was 25 at the time and under a different CBA. Unless you know more I can listen. I also used Cespedes as an example of how surprising things can happen but I didn't dare try to say their situations were the same .

 

Cespedes signed his contract before the most recent CBA -- things are radically different now. All players under 25 that don't go through the draft are now subject to International Signing Bonus limitations AND those limitations are now hard caps instead of harsh penalties. Manfred has expressly said that anything that they consider to be "circumventing the spending limit" will be grounds for voiding the contract.

[Eminor3rd]

I don't think every team is equal. The money might be the same, but people in Chicago don't watch the White Sox, it is hard to imagine this kid in Japan who was 11 the last time the Sox were an international story on the field has his eyes on the White Sox. . I would think this kid has a couple of favorite teams. It is hard seeing the White Sox or the Brewers or Pirates, or many other teams, on top of that list, so all things being equal, they more than likely have no shot. Being able to offer him more money would be that shot.

 

Right -- by all accounts, the only thing the Sox could POTENTIALLY offer is the right playing time situation, but the likelihood that at least one other, more desirable team won't also do it is extremely small.

[ptatc]

Right -- by all accounts, the only thing the Sox could POTENTIALLY offer is the right playing time situation, but the likelihood that at least one other, more desirable team won't also do it is extremely small.

I think another potential advantage over some teams is Iguchi. I'm sure Otani has asked other players who played in the states how they were treated by the organizations. From all accounts Iguchi enjoyed his time here. Other teams have had Japanese players as well but I'm sure they have a good reputation.

[southsider2k5]

I think another potential advantage over some teams is Iguchi. I'm sure Otani has asked other players who played in the states how they were treated by the organizations. From all accounts Iguchi enjoyed his time here. Other teams have had Japanese players as well but I'm sure they have a good reputation.

 

I can't help but think that with every potential advantage that the Sox might use to sell this team, there are multiple other teams who could offer better. If he wanted to go to a team that liked Japanese players, but can't offer money, why not LA? They worshiped Hideo Nomo. They have also signed a lot more Japanese players and have a bigger Japanese population base than Chicago does.

[bmags]

I think it's likely this

 

Texas

LAD

Seattle

 

 

[GenericUserName]

I can't help but think that with every potential advantage that the Sox might use to sell this team, there are multiple other teams who could offer better. If he wanted to go to a team that liked Japanese players, but can't offer money, why not LA? They worshiped Hideo Nomo. They have also signed a lot more Japanese players and have a bigger Japanese population base than Chicago does.

 

One of the many and often conflicting reports did say that he liked LA because of the large Japanese population. No one knows how true it is, but it is out there.

[Lip Man 1]

Sun-Times has a nice story today on his situation and lists the money teams are allowed to spend to potentially get him. Both the Sox and Cubs have only 300,000 remaining. He won't even consider signing for that in my opinion even if there are side deals in place:

 

http://chicago.suntimes.com/sports/reports...cubs-white-sox/

[Dick Allen]

Right, everyone's been saying that since the moment the new CBA info was released, but he insists he's coming anyway so it's a moot point.

I think when push comes to shove, he will come to his senses.

[bmags]

I probably shouldn't rule out the dbacks since they too have tried to expand their pool and have the bigger bonus (5.75 mill) pool money than TX.