Joe Musgrove Thread

[Rounding_Third]

Better options in FA as to not lose anyone, including Stiever.  He was the Pirates opening day starter, they'll overvalue him.   I do think we need to add a SP and let our system add the other.  

[Dam8610]

If the top piece of the deal is Stiever, I'd do it. Something like Steiver and Bryce Bush. People talked about having to trade from the prospect depth to get something of value when it was done for Lynn. While I still think that deal was stupid and the Sox vastly overpaid, this is the type of deal that needs to be made, dealing from actual prospect depth, not the ML roster, to get undervalued talent that is controllable for a decent period of time, rather than an aging vet with 1 year of control.

[Vulture]

13 hours ago, Balta1701 said:

 

 

Dude you started this when you called Musgrove a “potential stud”. You haven’t even tried to support that statement. Are you going to? 

Lol wut? you don’t even know who you’re responding to. You’d think a mod could follow a thread

[Vulture]

12 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

The two pitchers have pitched a combined 10 years.  Only one year were either of them a "stud" and that was Lopez in 2018...a year you choose to ignore. To call Lopez trash and Musgrove gold just seems confused.  They both have had a lot of chances and i wouldnt trade much for either...but i also wouldnt be shocked if either turned it around for a nice three year run. Maybe Lopez for Musgrove 

I never said he was a stud. I said he is clearly better than Lopez. I don’t know if you boys been drinking too much or what but if you look at the name at the top of the post you can tell who you’re talking to

[Vulture]

16 hours ago, iWiN4PreP said:

Musgrove is a potential stud, his issues are health mainly... lopez has no skill, hes a dud.

This might help. I guess if your vision is blurred enough, iwin4prep could look like vulture

[michelangelosmonkey]

15 minutes ago, Vulture said:

This might help. I guess if your vision is blurred enough, iwin4prep could look like vulture

But you did say "Musgrove is clearly vastly superior..." to Lopez.   Lopez we can all agree was horrid last year...but it was a weird Covid shortened season...he's younger than Musgrove and three years ago was clearly vastly superior.  Even in 2019, by far Musgrove's best year...he had 5 game scores over 70 and topped out at 78.  Lopez in 2019 had 6 game scores over 70 and topped out at 89.   If you want to compare 2018-19-20 Musgrove had 9 game scores over 70 with a peak of 80...  Lopez had 14 with several in the upper 80's.  Peak Lopez is better than peak Musgrove so it would seem a smart pitching coach can figure out how to get more peak. In fact Musgrove's top two pitched games ever were late September Covid year.  Before his last two late September starts he had an ERA nearly 6.  If the idea is to take a chance on unleashing the potential in one of the two...how about we do it on the one we already have that won't cost us Stiever and Bush.    

[Orlando]

3 hours ago, Rounding_Third said:

Better options in FA as to not lose anyone, including Stiever.  He was the Pirates opening day starter, they'll overvalue him.   I do think we need to add a SP and let our system add the other.  

Who is a better option?

[bmags]

Soxtalk game thread when Reynaldo is appearing:

”DFA him!”

”total trash I can’t wait until he’s gone”

”we’ll never compete with Reynaldo being relied on”

Soxtalk offseason

”Reynaldo lopez is just as good as Joe Musgrove”

[michelangelosmonkey]

24 minutes ago, bmags said:

Soxtalk game thread when Reynaldo is appearing:

”DFA him!”

”total trash I can’t wait until he’s gone”

”we’ll never compete with Reynaldo being relied on”

Soxtalk offseason

”Reynaldo lopez is just as good as Joe Musgrove”

I'm guilty of thinking that Joe Musgrove isn't very good and neither is Lopez so why trade assets for the Pirates failed pitcher when we have one of our own.  

[bmags]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

I'm guilty of thinking that Joe Musgrove isn't very good and neither is Lopez so why trade assets for the Pirates failed pitcher when we have one of our own.  

Pirates failed pitcher is actually an excellent resume recently

[michelangelosmonkey]

1 hour ago, bmags said:

Pirates failed pitcher is actually an excellent resume recently

Again...last two games in late September he was VERY good...before that he had an ERA of 6.  In 2019 he was 1 WAR better than Reylo and in 2018 he was 2 WAR worse.  In his best year ever he was 98th in the majors in pitching WAR...worse than Gio Gonzalez...his best year ever was worse than Gio age 33.  Honestly Quintana is lefty, has a better track record, better peak and costs you nothing.   Why are we even talking about this guy?    

[CentralChamps21]

Why are there three pages about trading for a guy with a career 4.33 ERA?

[poppysox]

19 hours ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

But you did say "Musgrove is clearly vastly superior..." to Lopez.   Lopez we can all agree was horrid last year...but it was a weird Covid shortened season...he's younger than Musgrove and three years ago was clearly vastly superior.  Even in 2019, by far Musgrove's best year...he had 5 game scores over 70 and topped out at 78.  Lopez in 2019 had 6 game scores over 70 and topped out at 89.   If you want to compare 2018-19-20 Musgrove had 9 game scores over 70 with a peak of 80...  Lopez had 14 with several in the upper 80's.  Peak Lopez is better than peak Musgrove so it would seem a smart pitching coach can figure out how to get more peak. In fact Musgrove's top two pitched games ever were late September Covid year.  Before his last two late September starts he had an ERA nearly 6.  If the idea is to take a chance on unleashing the potential in one of the two...how about we do it on the one we already have that won't cost us Stiever and Bush.    

I am anxious to see what Katz can do with Lopez.  A young arm like Lopez would seem to be the ideal project for a young coach to earn his stripes.

[GREEDY]

1 hour ago, WhiteSoxFan1993 said:

Why are there three pages about trading for a guy with a career 4.33 ERA?

He is 28th among starters in FIP over the past 3 years and seems almost likely to be dealt this offseason.  Those guys don't grow on trees.

My beef with the idea is the main reason for the hype is that he only makes 3.75 million this year.  Anyone playing pretend GM with a set payroll budget loves to pencil in Musgrove in exchange for 3 prospects that aren't really crucial to the Sox' future.  Something like Stiever, Rutherford, Adolfo.  I expect the Pirates to get more than this in return.  Hopefully the Sox don't give up real value for him in the name of saving money, instead of just paying a free agent and keeping our young players.

[Rounding_Third]

23 hours ago, Orlando said:

Who is a better option?

Any 1 of:

Julio Teheran (2020 stats after covid.  Like Moncada, will he be fully recovered?)

Taijuan Walker (nice 2020 bounce back from 2019 TJ surgery).  Might be worth taking affordable 3-4 year AAV flyer on him.

Quintana

Chase Anderson (2020 stats after oblique)

Garrett Richards

Maybe  2 or 3 year deals for any 1; and/or options.

Each has different AAV; with my limited market value research, possibly anywhere from ~ $3.5 for Walker up to ~ $10 for Richards.  Does that sound reasonable?

Good contract variety depending on Sox plans.      

Edited December 26, 2020 by Rounding_Third

[Jack Parkman]

4 hours ago, poppysox said:

I am anxious to see what Katz can do with Lopez.  A young arm like Lopez would seem to be the ideal project for a young coach to earn his stripes.

Lopez's stuff is nothing like it was in 2018. he's pretty much a lost cause. If they could make him a decent pen arm that would be a huge win at this point. 

Edited December 26, 2020 by Jack Parkman

[YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES!]

35 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

Any 1 of:

Julio Teheran (2020 stats after covid.  Like Moncada, will he be fully recovered?)

Taijuan Walker (nice 2020 bounce back from 2019 TJ surgery).  Might be worth taking affordable 3-4 year AAV flyer on him.

Quintana

Chase Anderson (2020 stats after oblique)

Garrett Richards

Maybe  2 or 3 year deals for any 1; and/or options.

Each has different AAV; with my limited market value research, possibly anywhere from ~ $3.5 for Walker up to ~ $10 for Richards.  Does that sound reasonable?

Good contract variety depending on Sox plans.      

You’re crazy if you think those guys are better options than Musgrove.

[Orlando]

1 hour ago, Rounding_Third said:

Any 1 of:

Julio Teheran (2020 stats after covid.  Like Moncada, will he be fully recovered?)

Taijuan Walker (nice 2020 bounce back from 2019 TJ surgery).  Might be worth taking affordable 3-4 year AAV flyer on him.

Quintana

Chase Anderson (2020 stats after oblique)

Garrett Richards

Maybe  2 or 3 year deals for any 1; and/or options.

Each has different AAV; with my limited market value research, possibly anywhere from ~ $3.5 for Walker up to ~ $10 for Richards.  Does that sound reasonable?

Good contract variety depending on Sox plans.      

I think those are mostly good options but none are better than Musgrove

Edited December 26, 2020 by Orlando

[RagahRagah]

4 minutes ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

You’re crazy if you think those guys are better options than Musgrove.

Why.

[michelangelosmonkey]

5 hours ago, poppysox said:

I am anxious to see what Katz can do with Lopez.  A young arm like Lopez would seem to be the ideal project for a young coach to earn his stripes.

Yes I think you and I are the only ones that haven't completely given up on him...though there is a fine line between optimist and idiot.  Lopez will be 27 this year and the last two years have been mostly ugly.  But as I wrote earlier...he's had more very well pitched games than Musgrove over the last three years (by game score).  Somewhere inside him is a very good pitcher.  You can also see how Lopez's pitching strategy has been taken over by Cooper...from near 70% fastball/curveball in his best year of 2018 to 50% slider/changeup last year.  When he came to the White Sox a big part of his arsenal was the power curveball that he never threw last year.  It's not impossible that Katz's studies him and can get him back on track...and we don't have to trade assets to get him.  

[Rounding_Third]

3 hours ago, YouCanPutItOnTheBoardYES! said:

You’re crazy if you think those guys are better options than Musgrove.

 

2 hours ago, Orlando said:

I think those are mostly good options but none are better than Musgrove

My point is that Teheran, Walker, & Anderson would cost roughly the same salary, have similar or better numbers, and not cost a top 100 prospect or more.  Like I said before, Mushgrove was Pitt's 2020 OD starter.  They'll overvalue him and be ok to keep him if they don't get what they want.  They're in the driver's seat and no reason for the Sox to take that ride when there're plenty of good alternates.

What's yours? 

Edited December 26, 2020 by Rounding_Third

[Jerksticks]

Why do we want Musgrove?  I’d rather watch any of our young guys

[poppysox]

1 hour ago, michelangelosmonkey said:

Yes I think you and I are the only ones that haven't completely given up on him...though there is a fine line between optimist and idiot.  Lopez will be 27 this year and the last two years have been mostly ugly.  But as I wrote earlier...he's had more very well pitched games than Musgrove over the last three years (by game score).  Somewhere inside him is a very good pitcher.  You can also see how Lopez's pitching strategy has been taken over by Cooper...from near 70% fastball/curveball in his best year of 2018 to 50% slider/changeup last year.  When he came to the White Sox a big part of his arsenal was the power curveball that he never threw last year.  It's not impossible that Katz's studies him and can get him back on track...and we don't have to trade assets to get him.  

So far...Katz has been the most exciting addition this offseason.  Fans were willing to give Coop hugh credit for his ability to "fix" our pitchers.  I see no reason to think Katz is not able to fix a few of these guys as well.  Lopez and Cease have tons of natural ability.  Katz showed the ability to get Giolito back on track..so why not Lopez and Cease.

[Balta1701]

59 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said:

 

My point is that Teheran, Walker, & Anderson would cost roughly the same salary, have similar or better numbers, and not cost a top 100 prospect or more.  Like I said before, Mushgrove was Pitt's 2020 OD starter.  They'll overvalue him and be ok to keep him if they don't get what they want.  They're in the driver's seat and no reason for the Sox to take that ride when there're plenty of good alternates.

What's yours? 

I don't think Pitt will overvalue him or be inclined to keep him, they will want a tolerable return for him, but they absolutely know they're rebuilding. They had more of a tie to Josh Bell than to Musgrove, and their GM is fairly new and knows exactly the kind of mess he has to rebuild. They won't give him away for nothing, they could conceivably hold him to the trade deadline if the market remains cold, but I would seriously doubt they'd hold him through next offseason (and would be surprised and disappointed in their GM if he did). They will just want a fair deal, and that probably doesn't even mean a top 100 prospect, it means a decent prospect from some team and maybe a filler/gamble piece.

[SoxBlanco]

1 hour ago, Balta1701 said:

They will just want a fair deal, and that probably doesn't even mean a top 100 prospect, it means a decent prospect from some team and maybe a filler/gamble piece.

Is something like Stiever and Beard enough to get it done?