Texsox Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 No matter when this is settled I'll be back supporting the players as I always have. If the owners want to stall and lose a season I'm ok. I won't fall into the owner's trap and be upset about their lockout causing a shortened or no season. The players shouldn't feel any pressure to get the season started on time. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spicy gar Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Sounds like poppysox has been a Pinkerton in his/her lifetime. Jesus. The owners don't need anyone else to carry water for them, so stop doing it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 5, 2022 Author Share Posted February 5, 2022 31 minutes ago, poppysox said: I believe the Admin should go out of their way to be fair and balanced in presenting both sides of most issues. Instead, many of the Admin join in the bully sessions that frequently break out on a daily basis. It's reminiscent of how a pack of Hyenas attacks a buffalo calf. It is not my intention to paint all admin with the same brush. Texsox for example goes out of his way to show both sides of the argument. I probably agree with him on 90% of his content. You are on a message board, not a massage board. I know that's a small typo, but Soxtalk isn't here to be "fair and balanced". Any site that tries to say they are is lying. This is a bunch of individuals here trading opinions, with some of us even bothering to take the time to read up on what we are arguing. Soxtalk isn't soft or for those who just want their opinions spouted back at them in a protected and one sided format. This isn't about one person's feelings. It's about a 20 year old format which works to allow all sides to debate, but not necessarily agree. The fact that you tried to paint the admin team as some uniform force is the most ironic part of all. If you'd really paid attention you'd know that it's the admin team who typically has the nastiest rows with each other. It's just in this case the evidence is so overwhelming and obvious that we aren't. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: You are on a message board, not a massage board. I know that's a small typo, but Soxtalk isn't here to be "fair and balanced". Any site that tries to say they are is lying. This is a bunch of individuals here trading opinions, with some of us even bothers to take the time to read up on what we are arguing. Soxtalk isn't soft or for those who just want their opinions spouted back at them in a protected and one sided format. This isn't about one person's feelings. It's about a 20 year old format which works to allow all sides to debate, but not necessarily agree. The irony that you tried to paint the admin team as some uniform force is the most ironic part of all. If you'd really paid attention you'd know that it's the admin team who typically has the nastiest rows with each other. It's just in this case the evidence is so overwhelming and obvious that we aren't. Thanks for the typo correction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 17 minutes ago, Spicy gar said: Sounds like poppysox has been a Pinkerton in his/her lifetime. Jesus. The owners don't need anyone else to carry water for them, so stop doing it. No...what I am is a senior citizen who got his 5.9% ($92.00 average recipient) increase in his benefit along with the news that Medicare part B premiums are going up 14.5%. You all already know about the price of gas and groceries. This ridiculous fight for money between some of the most overpaid people in the country is maddening. In the opening pages of this topic, I said every dollar won by the millionaire players would be passed on to the fan through increase in cost for tickets, hot dogs, parking, MLB TV, etc. Bend over and get ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 29 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: with some of us even bothering to take the time to read up on what we are arguing. Truth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spicy gar Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 9 minutes ago, poppysox said: No...what I am is a senior citizen who got his 5.9% ($92.00 average recipient) increase in his benefit along with the news that Medicare part B premiums are going up 14.5%. You all already know about the price of gas and groceries. This ridiculous fight for money between some of the most overpaid people in the country is maddening. In the opening pages of this topic, I said every dollar won by the millionaire players would be passed on to the fan through increase in cost for tickets, hot dogs, parking, MLB TV, etc. Bend over and get ready. That still isn't the players fault. No matter what happens with the CBA, tickets, concessions, you name it are going to increase regardless of player salaries. MLB owners are all extremely wealthy who shouldn't run sports teams like their personal business. Owning a team has become a business to make money, instead of putting a good product on the field. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 54 minutes ago, poppysox said: I know you think the overwhelming numbers on this site favor your viewpoint. However, of the over 6000 members of these forums only approximately 15 members have participated in the recent days of posting on this subject. Many good posters have given up because they don't like the gang tackle approach used by a few. Sadly, half of those 15 posters are admin who should welcome opposing viewpoints but instead attempt to steamroll those with opposing views. Poppy's right on this point. Message boards are no fun when a handful of load voices shout down debate. It's NOT an idiotic position to support the owners. There is ONE thing the owners care about...the future value of their franchises. There is ONE thing the players care about...the short term earnings from playing this sport. The owners have a much greater incentive to care about the competitiveness of the league than the players do. If the new collective bargaining agreement mean that in 15 years the value of baseball franchises will plummet...why would the players care? And this is the tricky part...you have the Dodgers with $200 million in annual revenues and the Marlins with $100 million in revenues largely because of geographic and demographic issues they don't control. Yet you need a structure that will allow the Marlins a chance to win versus the Dodgers. Meanwhile on the players side you have the Dodgers who have 4 pitchers earning a combined $125 million and a dozen players earning a combined $5 million. How do you get all those guys making $500,000 caring about the same things as Max Scherzer making $34,000,000? I should think there is no real common front on any side...the issues are hugely complicated. But i also don't think billionaire owners are idiots...and they know for them to continue to make double digit annual growth on the franchise value they have to protect the sports popularity. The players should not care about that at all. So if you want to get on one side or the other...the owners side might be closer to the fans side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spicy gar Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 18 minutes ago, poppysox said: No...what I am is a senior citizen who got his 5.9% ($92.00 average recipient) increase in his benefit along with the news that Medicare part B premiums are going up 14.5%. You all already know about the price of gas and groceries. Another reason to blame owners. Tell them to pay their fucking taxes. 2 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, michelangelosmonkey said: Poppy's right on this point. Message boards are no fun when a handful of load voices shout down debate. It's NOT an idiotic position to support the owners. There is ONE thing the owners care about...the future value of their franchises. There is ONE thing the players care about...the short term earnings from playing this sport. The owners have a much greater incentive to care about the competitiveness of the league than the players do. If the new collective bargaining agreement mean that in 15 years the value of baseball franchises will plummet...why would the players care? And this is the tricky part...you have the Dodgers with $200 million in annual revenues and the Marlins with $100 million in revenues largely because of geographic and demographic issues they don't control. Yet you need a structure that will allow the Marlins a chance to win versus the Dodgers. Meanwhile on the players side you have the Dodgers who have 4 pitchers earning a combined $125 million and a dozen players earning a combined $5 million. How do you get all those guys making $500,000 caring about the same things as Max Scherzer making $34,000,000? I should think there is no real common front on any side...the issues are hugely complicated. But i also don't think billionaire owners are idiots...and they know for them to continue to make double digit annual growth on the franchise value they have to protect the sports popularity. The players should not care about that at all. So if you want to get on one side or the other...the owners side might be closer to the fans side. Welcome back and as always...well said. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hi8is Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 This sucks. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted February 5, 2022 Author Share Posted February 5, 2022 27 minutes ago, poppysox said: No...what I am is a senior citizen who got his 5.9% ($92.00 average recipient) increase in his benefit along with the news that Medicare part B premiums are going up 14.5%. You all already know about the price of gas and groceries. This ridiculous fight for money between some of the most overpaid people in the country is maddening. In the opening pages of this topic, I said every dollar won by the millionaire players would be passed on to the fan through increase in cost for tickets, hot dogs, parking, MLB TV, etc. Bend over and get ready. Revenues have doubled with players share dropping by 25%. The billionaires are already bending you over, and then making you carry their mail afterwards. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) No fan wants the price of consuming baseball to go up. The owners, who face little to no risk owning a franchise these days, could in fact pay a higher minimum to players, institute changes to increase parity/competitive balance /deter continual tanking, pay their employees a living wage & benefits, and still accumulate generational wealth for their greedy selves and not pass those increased costs onto fans. It is a choice for ownership. The entire lockout was initiated because owners don’t want to share their increased revenues. Blaming the players for those things, the only other body who has a seat at the table to bargain for anything, is asinine. Edited February 5, 2022 by Tnetennba 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerksticks Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 What about shareholders? I thought those existed too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 18 minutes ago, poppysox said: Welcome back and as always...well said. But you get it both ways. Take the White Sox. They tank for a few years bring payroll down to nothing, make huge profits that supposedly will be spent when the rebuild is over. The rebuild is over and prices go up to pay for the increased payroll. While I agree with you any concession to the union will ultimately be paid for by paying customers, don't think for a second they won't try to bleed every available cent out of you even if players gave them everything they wanted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Parkman Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 14 hours ago, oldsox said: You're exaggerating, pardner. You're shootin' from the hip. You don't know what you're talking about. You're full of it. How far back do you want to go? https://econreview.berkeley.edu/the-economics-of-sports-stadiums-does-public-financing-of-sports-stadiums-create-local-economic-growth-or-just-help-billionaires-improve-their-profit-margin/ Public stadium financing is yet another example of privatizing profits and socializing losses. That shit needs to stop in all aspects of American life. Edited February 5, 2022 by Jack Parkman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 40 minutes ago, hi8is said: This sucks. Hey look...you got 2 likes from your posse for that in-depth analysis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 33 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: No fan wants the price of consuming baseball to go up. The owners, who face little to no risk owning a franchise these days, could in fact pay a higher minimum to players, institute changes to increase parity/competitive balance /deter continual tanking, pay their employees a living wage & benefits, and still accumulate generational wealth for their greedy selves and not pass those increased costs onto fans. It is a choice for ownership. The entire lockout was initiated because owners don’t want to share their increased revenues. Blaming the players for those things, the only other body who has a seat at the table to bargain for anything, is asinine. I certainly don't blame the players for trying. I think they're trying for some of the wrong things but that's their right. In the end, the owners hold the better hand and the sooner players realize this the sooner we get baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 13 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: But you get it both ways. Take the White Sox. They tank for a few years bring payroll down to nothing, make huge profits that supposedly will be spent when the rebuild is over. The rebuild is over and prices go up to pay for the increased payroll. While I agree with you any concession to the union will ultimately be paid for by paying customers, don't think for a second they won't try to bleed every available cent out of you even if players gave them everything they wanted. If you look back the last thirty years White Sox attendance is about 20,000 fans a game except in years where they compete and then it would average 30,000 (rough numbers for the argument). 10,000 fans a game x $81 games x $100 a game is $81 million . If the owner businessman (I know I've argued this before in a lot of other threads) just wants to maintain a small profit (the real wealth comes from franchise appreciation) yes...tanking means they cut payroll by $80 million and contending means they raise it by $80 million. All businesses try to "bleed every cent out of you". $7 for $0.50 worth of popcorn at a movie theater? But they are all based around pricing models. Some big retailers were happy to run at a loss because their "real" business was real estate speculation. Run the business to pay the light bill and wait for the underlying asset to go up. Baseball ownership is really no different. Herb Kohl (retail genius) bought the Bucks for $18 million, lost money every year, and then sold them for $550 million. That's the game. BUT, and so many people seem lost on this, real estate CAN go down in value. If you pay $3 billion for the White Sox and baseball manages to bungle their way out of popularity...you could see your $3 billion decline to $2 billion in ten years. Some speculation that this is happening with NBA franchise values the last few years. In a sense a sports franchise is like any collectible. It is never worth its underlying asset (the stream of income from the business) but is worth things because of it's scarcity. If that asset losses its popularity (Beanie Babies, 1970's baseball cards, Crypto) the asset can plummet in value. This is ALL the owners care about...but it plays in our favor...most don't care about the nickels in annual cost/expense that is being haggled over...they care about the golden goose. In some sense this "battle" going on keeps baseball in the national debate which may be their goal. Who knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poppysox Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 49 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Revenues have doubled with players share dropping by 25%. The billionaires are already bending you over, and then making you carry their mail afterwards. What time period are you using for that doubling effect. I will concede 8.2 billion in 2015 climbed to 10.7 in 2019 which is 30%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWINFan Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 The simple fact is that baseball economics changed some time ago. Fans who went to 3-5 games a year used to matter and now they don't. Fans who sat in the bleachers used to matter. Now it is the people who sit in the sky boxes. Why should the owners or the players care about the average fan? We can't put up millions of dollars to give stadiums dumb ass names or can we provide corporate sponsorships or pay a ton of money to sit in some special section. I don't plan on attending a major league game this year. There is an un-affiliated minor league team not far from me. There is no cost for parking, and ticket places are more than reasonable. My daughter worked for the team for two summers and had the time of her life, so I feel a little loyalty. The beer will still be cold. The sun will still be warm. And I still can watch baseball. Not major league caliber, but I will still watch baseball. I am tired of the arrogance of MLB and its demands for blind loyalty. They are not entitled to 3,000.000 in attendance and expect fans to sit in some stupid, insane upper deck. They can keep their skyboxes and stadiums that cater to the rich. The hell with the lockout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, poppysox said: I certainly don't blame the players for trying. I think they're trying for some of the wrong things but that's their right. In the end, the owners hold the better hand and the sooner players realize this the sooner we get baseball. Honestly outside of Curt Flood (only you and I are old enough to remember this reference) the players don't give a damn about those coming after them...nor should they. When I'm negotiating my salary I am not thinking about the good of the other workers in the office, or the benefits of those in college that will come and take my job in a few years...I just want mine. In fact if I can squeeze my company with the knowledge that I will increase my personal wealth in ten years but the company will be bankrupt after I leave? Sign me up. That's the problem with the pro player argument/anti owner. Everyone is in it for themselves including the fans (we want baseball and for our teams to have a fair shot at winning occasionally) . I think really the biggest challenge is within the ownership room...Dodgers are fine with allowing unlimited free agency because they have all the money. Rays want long time control over young players because they are good at development. How do you square these things...because if you don't...the Dodgers will win every year and baseball will die from boredom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michelangelosmonkey Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, NWINFan said: The simple fact is that baseball economics changed some time ago. Fans who went to 3-5 games a year used to matter and now they don't. Fans who sat in the bleachers used to matter. Now it is the people who sit in the sky boxes. Why should the owners or the players care about the average fan? We can't put up millions of dollars to give stadiums dumb ass names or can we provide corporate sponsorships or pay a ton of money to sit in some special section. I don't plan on attending a major league game this year. There is an un-affiliated minor league team not far from me. There is no cost for parking, and ticket places are more than reasonable. My daughter worked for the team for two summers and had the time of her life, so I feel a little loyalty. The beer will still be cold. The sun will still be warm. And I still can watch baseball. Not major league caliber, but I will still watch baseball. I am tired of the arrogance of MLB and its demands for blind loyalty. They are not entitled to 3,000.000 in attendance and expect fans to sit in some stupid, insane upper deck. They can keep their skyboxes and stadiums that cater to the rich. The hell with the lockout. I mean that's just bad math. 30,000 fans x $100 in game day revenue x 81 games dwarfs any other source of revenue the teams make. Fans going to the games matter a LOT. They want you at the game. And honestly...when Kopech is pitching and Robert has been on a hot streak...you want to go. I was at the Packers/Niners playoff game...that feeling you get when 80,000 fans are cheering in unison...not much in life can replicate that joy (or the collective pain when the stupid punt gets blocked and returned for a touchdown). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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