Is the biggest problem with the White Sox actually a lack of talent or a lack of desire?

Many of the players on the roster and in the system have or had the raw talent to be MLB players at a good level, I know the gaps at 2B and RF were not adequately addressed but the basic talents of these players projects to a much better season than this, most people at the start of the season were still predicting the Sox would win the Division. Even players like Moncada when he was acquired projected better than he has achieved, and so many players who come to the Sox as established MLB players perform below their career stats once on the South Side. Which leads me to think that the bigger problem is desire.

The desire issue runs throughout the organisation not just the players. Does JR and do the FO really want to win another World Series? Are they really all in as a slogan from previous seasons said? As for the players, are they too comfortable and just happy to be MLB players, do they really have that burning desire to achieve. How many times have we heard this season one of the players say 'the season starts now', shortly to be followed by another abject collapse? How many of the injuries are really just accidents or caused by a lack of application to strength and conditioning over the off season. something that a player who really wants to achieve would apply themselves to wholeheartedly, example being Lance Lynn and his attitude to training. The Sox strike me as being happy go lucky in attitude, it would be nice to win something but hey we are in the Big League and still getting paid.

Sorry for the long winded post!

Edited September 23, 20223 yr by Chimpton
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3 hours ago, Chimpton said:

Is the biggest problem with the White Sox actually a lack of talent or a lack of desire?

Many of the players on the roster and in the system have or had the raw talent to be MLB players at a good level, I know the gaps at 2B and RF were not adequately addressed but the basic talents of these players projects to a much better season than this, most people at the start of the season were still predicting the Sox would win the Division. Even players like Moncada when he was acquired projected better than he has achieved, and so many players who come to the Sox as established MLB players perform below their career stats once on the South Side. Which leads me to think that the bigger problem is desire.

The desire issue runs throughout the organisation not just the players. Does JR and do the FO really want to win another World Series? Are they really all in as a slogan from previous seasons said? As for the players, are they too comfortable and just happy to be MLB players, do they really have that burning desire to achieve. How many times have we heard this season one of the players say 'the season starts now', shortly to be followed by another abject collapse? How many of the injuries are really just accidents or caused by a lack of application to strength and conditioning over the off season. something that a player who really wants to achieve would apply themselves to wholeheartedly, example being Lance Lynn and his attitude to training. The Sox strike me as being happy go lucky in attitude, it would be nice to win something but hey we are in the Big League and still getting paid.

Sorry for the long winded post!

I suspect that lack of desire plays a large part in our underperformance.  We needed to win this series with Cleveland and yet the visitors played with far more enthusiasm to play these games.  We need a throwback manager like Billy Martin who had the philosophy that if you don't hustle you don't play.  

Raw talent with no refinement. Bad habits allowed to persist. Lack of leadership to tell players otherwise AND hold them accountable.

42 minutes ago, JoeC said:

Raw talent with no refinement. Bad habits allowed to persist. Lack of leadership to tell players otherwise AND hold them accountable.

That is what I meant by lack of desire by the organisation to ensure that raw talent developed, how many of the top draft picks from the losing years and beyond have actually reached their full potential and actually contributed to the MLB team? 

52 minutes ago, JoeC said:

Raw talent with no refinement. Bad habits allowed to persist. Lack of leadership to tell players otherwise AND hold them accountable.

This. This. This.

There's a reason They went even on a short run after Cairo just fired them up. We saw them dominate at various points over the last two years.

These teams are talented. I'm convinced Francona has them towards the top of the AL, let alone the central.

Clearly a lack of talent.

I'm sure we'll hear the "LaRussa sapped all the desire" line from the FO, via media/bloggers over the next few months.

I think it's just poor coaching and a general lackadaisical attitude, they look like guys who aren't enjoying what they do but that's probably because they play like s%*# on a daily basis

The talent is there for the most part.  There is certainly a lack of desire and effort.  When you have leadership telling the team not to hustle, that sets a bad tone.  These guys are doing a job, just like any of us doing a job.  If there are guys dogging it and either being told to dog it or not being held accountable for dogging it, it's going to affect the entire team.

This past series with the Guardians truly showed how bad this team is right now.  Lazy, no interest, no accountability.

24 minutes ago, GreenSox said:

Clearly a lack of talent.

I'm sure we'll hear the "LaRussa sapped all the desire" line from the FO, via media/bloggers over the next few months.

It's an organizational failure to bring out the best in talent, both in the short term (through hustle, give-a-shittatude, mental focus) and in the long term (working on filling holes in games, developing things like pitch selection / lowering chase rates, etc.).

The raw talent and potential are there, but, as the great philosopher Shaquille O'Neal once said, "'potential' is French for 'you ain't s%*# yet.'"

Um, yes? 

The players aren't as talented as we thought and there's no desire there either. 

Edited September 23, 20223 yr by Jack Parkman

9 minutes ago, hogan873 said:

The talent is there for the most part.  There is certainly a lack of desire and effort.  When you have leadership telling the team not to hustle, that sets a bad tone.  These guys are doing a job, just like any of us doing a job.  If there are guys dogging it and either being told to dog it or not being held accountable for dogging it, it's going to affect the entire team.

This past series with the Guardians truly showed how bad this team is right now.  Lazy, no interest, no accountability.

In my mind I keep going back and forth on trading Eloy and I think I lean towards trading him if a team is sold on his second half because...whenever he hustles, he gets hurt.

7 minutes ago, JoeC said:

The raw talent and potential are there, but, as the great philosopher Shaquille O'Neal once said, "'potential' is French for 'you ain't s%*# yet.'"

There is some raw talent, but not nearly enough; and there is an overage of over 30 guys who aren't very good.

2 hours ago, JoeC said:

Raw talent with no refinement. Bad habits allowed to persist. Lack of leadership to tell players otherwise AND hold them accountable.

Who could disagree?

I'll say what many others have said: This team just isn't baseball smart. The same mistakes are made over and over. Good teams just don't have talent; they know how to play in certain situations. A new coaching staff would help. Getting rid of some players would also help.

Lack of player development.

Owner doesn't give a s%*#.

GM doesn't have a clue.

Manager wanted to be players friends, reward cronies from a decade ago.

Veterans mostly (Abreu definitely not among them) did not give a s%*#.

Young players mostly did not give a s%*#.

No incentives for any of the above to give a s%*#. This is the state of the organization heading into the 2023 offseason.

The talent severely regressed in many areas.  What happened to Yoan’s speed, Timmy’s power, Vaughn’s eye, Robert’s defense, Giolito and Kopech’s velocity?

It's a combination of both. Made worse by an organization that in many areas is simply inept, dysfunctional and incompetent.

The players cared enough to be a very good team in 2020, win the division in 2021 despite countless injuries, but then decided to stop caring this year? I find that very difficult to believe.

The organization doesn't put players in the best position to succeed, whether that's in the very lowest levels of the minors or the big league club. Player development, coaching, and the medical staff are all huge areas where the Sox let their players down and don't maximize their ability.

Just now, maxjusttyped said:

The players cared enough to be a very good team in 2020, win the division in 2021 despite countless injuries, but then decided to stop caring this year? I find that very difficult to believe.

The organization doesn't put players in the best position to succeed, whether that's in the very lowest levels of the minors or the big league club. Player development, coaching, and the medical staff are all huge areas where the Sox let their players down and don't maximize their ability.

There is a lot of truth in your statement. 

The team is loaded with talent, it is just a really bad balance of that talent.  The team needs re balancing.  Past that their fundamentals are garbage.  I really think there are 10 games to be had pretty easily.

Too many athletes and not enough baseball players.  This team has to have one of the lowest baseball IQs I have ever seen. 

2 minutes ago, soulfly said:

Too many athletes and not enough baseball players.  This team has to have one of the lowest baseball IQs I have ever seen. 

Again, who are the athletes?  The team speed is pathetic, as are the power numbers.  Yoan went from a 30-30 guy to someone who can only steal on the backside of a double steal.  You watch this team and they look like they’re in slow motion.

3 minutes ago, soulfly said:

Too many athletes and not enough baseball players.  This team has to have one of the lowest baseball IQs I have ever seen. 

The "Kenny Williams" approach to drafting. As far as baseball IQ I completely agree, they are simply "baseball-stupid". The blame for that falls on the players and the coaching staff. Both are at fault in this area. 

59 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

The team is loaded with talent, it is just a really bad balance of that talent.  The team needs re balancing.  Past that their fundamentals are garbage.  I really think there are 10 games to be had pretty easily.

It has been an organization wide problem for decades. Ricky held players accountable, but was allegedly fired in part because he team did not improve with fundamentals. Tony was supposed to do improve fundamentals and hold players accountable, but did neither. Unwritten rules bullshit (Yermin, Bean Balls) and taking care of his guys were the only things Tony cared about during his tenure. The team regressed in defense, baserunning and opponent scouting and game plans under Tony. Veterans openly stated they were ignoring Tony, were playing whether Tony penciled them in the lineup or not. Younger players followed suit. Eloy says f*** DH, it's for old fat guys (check the mirror Eloy). See also Moncada's "efforts". 

Fans and media have blamed players for arrogance and reading their own press clippings (Tim "We're the best fucking team"), but the arrogance starts at the top with Rick Hahn. He had two smart moves in a decade; acquiring and flipping Adam Eaton, and convincing Jerry to pawn off the players inherited from Kenny to get a rebuild and several more accountability free years of employment via tanking/rebuild. Hahn has no demonstrable baseball acumen, ability to construct a roster, or hire people who can evaluate and develop players and trade/draft targets beyond Marco Paddy (also inherited from Kenny). Couple that with Jerry's arrogance and penny pinching that stole from Paddy's budget to save a few hundred thousand here and there on contract buyouts or trade acquisitions. Jerry also has starved the future pipeline by dumping a large portion of the scouting organization in 2020 and eschewing investing in analytics beyond hiring Tony's friend's son as a favor to Tony. Despite several years of high draft picks, the Sox farm system is once again bottom five in baseball.

The Sox are also bottom five in scouting, training, strength and conditioning, talent development, talent evaluation (internal and external), defensive positioning, analytics, draft performance, free agent acquisitions, fundamentals, defensive metrics, plate discipline, advance team scouting and opponent game plans. It's also a bottom five destination for free agents beyond players seeking their last contract with nowhere else to go. Players around the league talk and note the bullshit, be it the pre-tanking Sox with LaRoche and other crap, or the past few years with Tony. Same thing happened to the Bulls with Jerry overseeing the day to day, solid veterans refused to come despite cap space, the ones who did had no better alternatives (winning or basketball culture) due to the dysfunctional incompetent organizational mess over the past few decades.

This is a reflection of Jerry. his permanent FO righthand men, and his crony managerial hire that blew up in his face.

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverbs 16:18, KJV

Go Blow Rick!