28 minutes ago, AJ'S Cousin said:

I don’t care how this ends up. I want this to be English Law, not American Law. In Great Britain you are guilty until proven innocent. And there’s no chance in hell he’s going to found innocent. As I said before, “ HE GONE”. Get rid of him, stretch out Martin or whoever the next man up in AA or AAA is next up. Stiever, Martin, Avila, whoever. Because of Hendriks out it makes Lopez a defacto closer I belive at this time with Graveman. I don’t see a trade for a starter who’s available and they’re going to bleed us for a good one. Hope Kopech is on schedule for opening day. 

This is not true.  You may be thinking of North Korea?

8 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

The biggest issue is still that they had $8 million to spend on a starting pitcher so that they could also sign an outfielder. When you are forced to bargain bin hunt so the owners grand kids don't miss a meal, sometimes you end up signing turds. 

Decided to update this

- Omar Vizquel abuse of a child while manager of sox
  - Other coach involved kept on and let go years later
- International Scouting Director federally charged for fraud
- Manager with DUI made public 2 weeks after hire
- Clevinger debacle
- Keeping dbo for no reason

Is there another team close with this kind of 20 year run of embarrassments. Not even including stuff like LaRoche, which to me is just some cworkplace embarrassment, this is consistent negligence of criminal behavior.

Houston, STL, ATL, SD have had an incident, but sox have been so so bad.

19 minutes ago, 35thstreetswarm said:

This is not true.  You may be thinking of North Korea?

Forget it...he's rolling!

19 minutes ago, bmags said:

I don't get being down on Davis Martin except for injury, which is understandable. His slider showed real promise as a put-out pitch. If his velocity breakout from last year is maintained, I think he's a good piece to have.

Sean Burke better be getting ready though. Not much else.

Martin is a perfectly acceptable #6...first guy up type of deal.  As someone we are actually relying on for 25+ starts...big yikes. 

26 minutes ago, Balta1701 said:

I looked at this yesterday - they actually were supposed to have paid him for the administrative leave, but this changed when the Arbitrator ruled against the league. Administrative leave means he still gets paid, suspension no pay. When the arbitrator ruled, they decided to count the long administrative leave as part of his suspension, which meant no money during the administrative leave, but his contract resumed from the point the suspension ended. This is a unique case since it's the only MLB domestic violence suspension that went to an arbitrator. 

Got it.  So basically, as example, let's say that Clevinger gets placed on administrative leave and then the league hands down an 81 game suspension mid-season, Sox would owe him $4M for 50% of 2023, + the $4M buyout if htey released him at that time. 

Wonder how that buy out is going to be treated.  Probably would need to get suspended for over 162 for that to be be void. 

35 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said:

The biggest issue is still that they had $8 million to spend on a starting pitcher so that they could also sign an outfielder. When you are forced to bargain bin hunt so the owners grand kids don't miss a meal, sometimes you end up signing turds. 

No doubt but lets not pretend there isn't plenty of payroll to build a WS caliber team but that money was horribly misused but a bad GM. Hahn and Hahn alone created this problem.

6 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Got it.  So basically, as example, let's say that Clevinger gets placed on administrative leave and then the league hands down an 81 game suspension mid-season, Sox would owe him $4M for 50% of 2023, + the $4M buyout if htey released him at that time. 

Wonder how that buy out is going to be treated.  Probably would need to get suspended for over 162 for that to be be void. 

I think that's correct yes, and I think the buyout - since it's a mutual option - will be paid out no matter what. 

2 minutes ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

No doubt but lets not pretend there isn't plenty of payroll to build a WS caliber team but that money was horribly misused but a bad GM. Hahn and Hahn alone created this problem.

Was Hahn told the payroll was going to be higher when this process started 4 years ago? Or did he always know we were capped at 190  

5 hours ago, Harry Chappas said:

Taking him over Cueto is pure insanity.  it almost feels like the White Sox do not even try to improve their situation.

Why do people want Cueto but want nothing to do with Elvis Andrus?

2 minutes ago, SoxBlanco said:

Why do people want Cueto but want nothing to do with Elvis Andrus?

Andrus can’t give you 180 innings on the mound

4 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

Andrus can’t give you 180 innings on the mound

Cueto can't either.  He hasn't done that since 2016. 

In hindsight, of course Cueto looks pretty good right now.  BUt moving on from Cueto, who frankly was pretty bad since that 2016 season and is 37 years old, made a ton of sense.  Cueto was great for the Sox - legitimately like finding a $100 bill on the ground.  There is next to 0% chance he repeats his 2022 season.  

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

Cueto can't either.  He hasn't done that since 2016. 

In hindsight, of course Cueto looks pretty good right now.  BUt moving on from Cueto, who frankly was pretty bad since that 2016 season and is 37 years old, made a ton of sense.  Cueto was great for the Sox - legitimately like finding a $100 bill on the ground.  There is next to 0% chance he repeats his 2022 season.  

The question isn’t whether Cueto repeats his 2022 season. It’s whether he outperforms what the Sox throw out there. Pretty good bet at this point.

2 hours ago, almagest said:

Buddy of mine is dealing with the same thing. It's remarkable how awful his ex-wife is.

Yea man - the lengths some people will go to get what they want is astonishing.

Just now, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

The question isn’t whether Cueto repeats his 2022 season. It’s whether he outperforms what the Sox throw out there. Pretty good bet at this point.

Yes, with the benefit of hindsight.  Choosing Clevinger over Cueto was the right idea for baseball reasons in 2023.  As most things have gone for the Sox the last 2+ years, it aged really poorly.  If we all knew Clevinger was going to be suspended in 2023, of course signing Cueto would have been preferred.  This isn't rocket science.  

1 minute ago, ChiSox59 said:

Yes, with the benefit of hindsight.  Choosing Clevinger over Cueto was the right idea for baseball reasons in 2023.  As most things have gone for the Sox the last 2+ years, it aged really poorly.  If we all knew Clevinger was going to be suspended in 2023, of course signing Cueto would have been preferred.  This isn't rocket science.  

The Clevinger signing was bad from the start. His metrics sucked last year and the track record of pitchers having sustained success after two TJS is very poor.

 

51 minutes ago, bmags said:

- Omar Vizquel abuse of a child while manager of sox
  - Other coach involved kept on and let go years later
- International Scouting Director federally charged for fraud
- Manager with DUI made public 2 weeks after hire
- Clevinger debacle
- Keeping dbo for no reason

Is there another team close with this kind of 20 year run of embarrassments. Not even including stuff like LaRoche, which to me is just some cworkplace embarrassment, this is consistent negligence of criminal behavior.

Houston, STL, ATL, SD have had an incident, but sox have been so so bad.

Cubs

1 hour ago, AJ'S Cousin said:

I don’t care how this ends up. I want this to be English Law, not American Law. In Great Britain you are guilty until proven innocent.

10 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

The Clevinger signing was bad from the start. His metrics sucked last year and the track record of pitchers having sustained success after two TJS is very poor.

 

Clevinger was actually really good last year until like mid August.  His xFIP was in the mid 3s.  He clearly ran out of gas late in the season, which makes sense for a guy that didn't pitch in 2021 coming off his 2nd TJS, and his workload was appraoching the most he'd pitched since 2019. 

Just now, ChiSox59 said:

Clevinger was actually really good last year until like mid August.  His xFIP was in the mid 3s.  He clearly ran out of gas late in the season, which makes sense for a guy that didn't pitch in 2021 coming off his 2nd TJS, and his workload was appraoching the most he'd pitched since 2019. 

Yet it appeared the Padres had very little interest in a return.

1 minute ago, Dick Allen said:

Yet it appeared the Padres had very little interest in a return.

Well, we now know why.  

25 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said:

Well, we now know why.  

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/mike-clevinger-605182?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb
 

Scroll down for a laundry list of red flags of impending poor performance

25 minutes ago, FourEyesShottenhoffer said:

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/savant-player/mike-clevinger-605182?stats=statcast-r-pitching-mlb
 

Scroll down for a laundry list of red flags of impending poor performance

You can't assume all red-flags lead to the worst red flag.

9 minutes ago, Squirmin' for Yermin said:

You can't assume all red-flags lead to the worst red flag.

Not sure what you mean. The question being discussed was whether Clevinger was a good signing on purely baseball merits. Being in the bottom twenty percentile in numerous key metrics would generally be considered a bad sign particularly when it comes after a second tjs

1 hour ago, Harold's Leg Lift said:

No doubt but lets not pretend there isn't plenty of payroll to build a WS caliber team but that money was horribly misused but a bad GM. Hahn and Hahn alone created this problem.

How differently would things be if Rick Hahn were fired and Chris Getz took over with KW staying in his current capacity?