ptatc Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, WhiteSox2023 said: The Sox had a $181 million dollar payroll to start the 2023 season, while the initial luxury tax threshold was $233 million for the 2023 season. It was $230 million for the prior 2022 season as well. I’m not seeing how the Sox were ever close to the luxury tax during the entire 2023 season, or the previous 2022 season in which their payroll was even higher. Sources: https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2023/11/white-sox-not-expected-to-match-franchise-record-payroll.html#google_vignette https://www.truebluela.com/platform/amp/2023/12/23/23985042/dodgers-payroll-2023-competitive-balance-tax OK. Nice research. This is drastically different then the discussions everyone had prior to the season. Most of the people on the board had figured that they were roughly19 million from the luxury tax. I still disagree that Chapman would have 1. Agreed to sign with the Sox because of the better opportunity in KC as he wasn't going to be the 3rd option in the pen. 2. That he would have made any appriciable difference. As Graveman was the primary closer and Chapman would have been relegated to lesser use even than he was in KC as Graveman was fairly successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 (edited) 22 minutes ago, ptatc said: OK. Nice research. This is drastically different then the discussions everyone had prior to the season. Most of the people on the board had figured that they were roughly19 million from the luxury tax. I still disagree that Chapman would have 1. Agreed to sign with the Sox because of the better opportunity in KC as he wasn't going to be the 3rd option in the pen. 2. That he would have made any appriciable difference. As Graveman was the primary closer and Chapman would have been relegated to lesser use even than he was in KC as Graveman was fairly successful. Those sources may not be exact, and I wouldn’t be surprised if posters’ payroll numbers on here were more accurate. I knew the Sox payroll was pretty high the past two years (especially 2022), but I didn’t think it ever got that close to $230-$233 million. That is pretty high and yet 8 teams were willing to eat the LT penalty. Pretty nuts. Edited January 12 by WhiteSox2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 6 hours ago, ptatc said: He had a better opportunity to close there than with graveman here. Reynaldo Lopez was getting all the closing opportunities in April. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomtom Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 That won't end well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 1 hour ago, WestEddy said: Reynaldo Lopez was getting all the closing opportunities in April. Which shows you that they had confidence in multiple guys on the staff so Chapman would have been even further buried in the pen. So even if they talked to Chapman, there us no way he would sign with the Sox. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 3 hours ago, ptatc said: OK. Nice research. This is drastically different then the discussions everyone had prior to the season. Most of the people on the board had figured that they were roughly19 million from the luxury tax. I still disagree that Chapman would have 1. Agreed to sign with the Sox because of the better opportunity in KC as he wasn't going to be the 3rd option in the pen. 2. That he would have made any appriciable difference. As Graveman was the primary closer and Chapman would have been relegated to lesser use even than he was in KC as Graveman was fairly successful. There is a $15 million cost for “benefits” that each team incurs, in addition to some other complex rules for contracts like Robert that increase in value every year. When the White Sox started 2022 with a payroll over $190 million, they probably had about $15 million under the tax, maybe a little less. Their payroll in ‘23 started off lower and the tax line went up by $3 million, so in ‘23 they definitely had space for a big addition without coming close to the tax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 12 Share Posted January 12 16 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: There is a $15 million cost for “benefits” that each team incurs, in addition to some other complex rules for contracts like Robert that increase in value every year. When the White Sox started 2022 with a payroll over $190 million, they probably had about $15 million under the tax, maybe a little less. Their payroll in ‘23 started off lower and the tax line went up by $3 million, so in ‘23 they definitely had space for a big addition without coming close to the tax. Maybe it was 22 I was thinking of the. I'm old I cold have mixed up the years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Definitely sounds like he will be building up as a starter in the majors Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 If stretching him out includes him spending 6 or so weeks in the minors, I’m all for it. Gladly extend that control a year on a guy who has been criminally mishandled. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 6 minutes ago, ChiSox59 said: If stretching him out includes him spending 6 or so weeks in the minors, I’m all for it. Gladly extend that control a year on a guy who has been criminally mishandled. 100% what they should do. Unfortunately it sounds like they’re taking the Kopech approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 2 minutes ago, Chicago White Sox said: 100% what they should do. Unfortunately it sounds like they’re taking the Kopech approach. Did Getz say this? Must have missed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicago White Sox Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Just now, ChiSox59 said: Did Getz say this? Must have missed it. Article in the Sun Times today with Katz sort of suggests it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 Realistically, how many innings can even throw this year? Might just need to be a couple inning opener and 1 inning relief type role. That is, until he gets hurt and ends up on the IL…again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox59 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 24 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said: Realistically, how many innings can even throw this year? Might just need to be a couple inning opener and 1 inning relief type role. That is, until he gets hurt and ends up on the IL…again. Crochet to Touki piggyback could make some sense while it lasts, like you mentioned. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 2 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said: Realistically, how many innings can even throw this year? Might just need to be a couple inning opener and 1 inning relief type role. That is, until he gets hurt and ends up on the IL…again. I would guess 80. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Sacamano Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 9 minutes ago, ptatc said: I would guess 80. Have him get those innings in the minors. And when he gets hurt, he won’t have to burn service time on MLB IL. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 1 hour ago, Bob Sacamano said: Have him get those innings in the minors. And when he gets hurt, he won’t have to burn service time on MLB IL. That's the dilemma. He has quality stuff to get MLB hitters out. Do they get him the innings helping the MLB team or have him in the minors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rounding_Third Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 On 1/11/2024 at 10:59 PM, caulfield12 said: We will see with Joyce, right? If his results coming out of Tenn are any different? I didn't realize the Angels were converting him to starter. I thought they were happy with him in the back end bull pen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 3 hours ago, Bob Sacamano said: Have him get those innings in the minors. And when he gets hurt, he won’t have to burn service time on MLB IL. Getz probably made a deal with him to let him pitch all those innings in the majors... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 6 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said: I didn't realize the Angels were converting him to starter. I thought they were happy with him in the back end bull pen. I just meant if another ultra high velocity guy can handle any type of significant load over a full season. For now it will be Hicks and the Giants skeptics are paying close attention to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rounding_Third Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 On 1/13/2024 at 3:28 PM, caulfield12 said: I just meant if another ultra high velocity guy can handle any type of significant load over a full season. For now it will be Hicks and the Giants skeptics are paying close attention to. Ah, I see. I wonder what the history is overall. It clearly didn't work for Kopek either. I'm guessing lots of Tommy John. I feel bad for Crochet. He could be a fantastic back end bull pen stud once he gets his control figured out. But Getz needs SP's because Cease will be gone and no one good will sign here. If Crochet pitches > 75 innings and/or 15 starts, it'll be a miracle. Poor kid! A wasted career and so much lost $'s because of who drafted him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Rounding_Third said: Ah, I see. I wonder what the history is overall. It clearly didn't work for Kopek either. I'm guessing lots of Tommy John. I feel bad for Crochet. He could be a fantastic back end bull pen stud once he gets his control figured out. But Getz needs SP's because Cease will be gone and no one good will sign here. If Crochet pitches > 75 innings and/or 15 starts, it'll be a miracle. Poor kid! A wasted career and so much lost $'s because of who drafted him. Kopech is almost as maddening as Moncada. I think the legend of his Texas high school pitching and "hot gun readings" in the low 100's overtook his realistic ability to pitch and not just throw. Then the mixture of off-field drama, maturing, missing the Covid19 year completely, just an array of lower leg issues that always kept getting in the way, but he still had the 21st highest average velocity among starters last year, it's just that it has never been a terribly deceptive pitch due to how straight it can be at times, not unlike Reynaldo Lopez when he's going bad. At one point, he had the makings of really good off-speed pitches, the curveball was at least decent and the slider could really feature as a plus pitch. That seemed to completely disappear in the second half, along with his confidence almost being completely shattered. More than anything, just terribly inconsistent...and finally consistently terrible for someone with his projected stuff. Feels like the word "potential" is the only word still somewhat reluctantly attached to him. At any rate, don't think Crochet ever even got to that point because of his lack of pitches thrown over the course of his career with so many injuries mixed in. For every Chris Sale or Randy Johnson with that beanpole frame who can withstand the stress of high velocity arsenals and loads of sliders like Cease, there must be hundreds who simply don't make it and flame out somewhere along the way. Edited January 15 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rounding_Third Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 13 hours ago, caulfield12 said: Kopech is almost as maddening as Moncada. I think the legend of his Texas high school pitching and "hot gun readings" in the low 100's overtook his realistic ability to pitch and not just throw. Then the mixture of off-field drama, maturing, missing the Covid19 year completely, just an array of lower leg issues that always kept getting in the way, but he still had the 21st highest average velocity among starters last year, it's just that it has never been a terribly deceptive pitch due to how straight it can be at times, not unlike Reynaldo Lopez when he's going bad. At one point, he had the makings of really good off-speed pitches, the curveball was at least decent and the slider could really feature as a plus pitch. That seemed to completely disappear in the second half, along with his confidence almost being completely shattered. More than anything, just terribly inconsistent...and finally consistently terrible for someone with his projected stuff. Feels like the word "potential" is the only word still somewhat reluctantly attached to him. At any rate, don't think Crochet ever even got to that point because of his lack of pitches thrown over the course of his career with so many injuries mixed in. For every Chris Sale or Randy Johnson with that beanpole frame who can withstand the stress of high velocity arsenals and loads of sliders like Cease, there must be hundreds who simply don't make it and flame out somewhere along the way. I remember the Kopech speed pitch video. I thought; "How cool; now don't that anymore!". Yeah, he & Crochet are just 2 of many Chris Getz (non) developmental success stories that landed him into the GM's chair. I can't recall anyone with so much success at failure! Also, is it me or have Sox pitchers been the "most BBs" & "most pitches" staffs over the last 2-3 years? We must lead in ~100 pitch / >6 inning starts (give/take 5-10 pitches). Seems so anyway. Great development! Yeah today's whip action slider and disappearance of body usage/support in the windup virtually assures Tommy John surgery & a coin toss if career ending or peaked. It almost seems to be part of the accepted culture now as is the 6 inning limit. If there's > 25 CG's in MLB this year, I'll be shocked; 34 in 2023. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 15 hours ago, Rounding_Third said: Ah, I see. I wonder what the history is overall. It clearly didn't work for Kopek either. I'm guessing lots of Tommy John. I feel bad for Crochet. He could be a fantastic back end bull pen stud once he gets his control figured out. But Getz needs SP's because Cease will be gone and no one good will sign here. If Crochet pitches > 75 innings and/or 15 starts, it'll be a miracle. Poor kid! A wasted career and so much lost $'s because of who drafted him. I feel bad for Crochet because a professional organization would have tried him as a starter from the beginning in ‘21. Instead he got the Hahn clown show. You don’t draft a guy in the top 15 and treat him this way, this guy with his arm could easily have turned into a top 10 prospect in all of baseball after 2 years in the minors, but Hahn needed his relievers. And if he gets hurt, then there’s time for him to recover before he has to hit free agency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caulfield12 Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Balta1701 said: I feel bad for Crochet because a professional organization would have tried him as a starter from the beginning in ‘21. Instead he got the Hahn clown show. You don’t draft a guy in the top 15 and treat him this way, this guy with his arm could easily have turned into a top 10 prospect in all of baseball after 2 years in the minors, but Hahn needed his relievers. And if he gets hurt, then there’s time for him to recover before he has to hit free agency. Burdi too. KW started that nonsense with Royce Ring and Aaron Poreda. Joins the crowd of numerous players we likely get nothing back in return for...or negative returns. Rodon Anderson Grandal Pollock/Kimbrel Hendriks etc. Almost every first rounder other than Burger/Sale. Likely Jimenez/Moncada. Cease due to the Sports Guy/Elias Curse. Edited January 15 by caulfield12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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