18 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Baltimore invested in scouting, player development and analytics. 

Ill die on this hill, but if the Sox would just poach people from the TB/CLE front office and said "Do the same thing here you do there, but you also get a $180,000,000 million payroll" the White Sox would win this division or be right in it every single year.

I don't even understand why JR won't entertain this, he could probably even go lower on the payroll and still field a profitable and competitive team every year.

4 minutes ago, T R U said:

Ill die on this hill, but if the Sox would just poach people from the TB/CLE front office and said "Do the same thing here you do there, but you also get a $180,000,000 million payroll" the White Sox would win this division or be right in it every single year.

I don't even understand why JR won't entertain this, he could probably even go lower on the payroll and still field a profitable and competitive team every year.

This is why JR won’t entertain this.

8 minutes ago, T R U said:

Ill die on this hill, but if the Sox would just poach people from the TB/CLE front office and said "Do the same thing here you do there, but you also get a $180,000,000 million payroll" the White Sox would win this division or be right in it every single year.

I don't even understand why JR won't entertain this, he could probably even go lower on the payroll and still field a profitable and competitive team every year.

I don't think anyone, except Jerry, would argue with you.

Just now, southsider2k5 said:

I don't think anyone, except Jerry, would argue with you.

Do we think the world series just changed everything? Prior to then, I did not get the sense that they were immovable. I would say the "don't overpay for pitchers" is gospel and has been. The long term contracts, has been gospel.

But 23 years ago (lol) we did ditch our hitting coach when our 01 offense was trash. We did ditch Manuel for underperforming. We forced his pitching coaches out too.

At some point it hardened (maybe being projected 4th in 2005 - even though sox fans were all pretty pumped about that team) that everyone else is stupid except the people he hires and if everyone had their way (we'd do some stupid thing too early)

33 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Baltimore invested in scouting, player development and analytics. 

And the White Sox invested in….ticket sales reps

15 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

And the White Sox invested in….ticket sales reps

That’s the true way to make money.  Not by building a good team that sells itself and that people will automatically come to see, but an overloaded call center of solicitors selling a crappy product.  It’s like being sold on a time share.  Who doesn’t love that?!?

Edited August 5, 20241 yr by WhiteSox2023

11 minutes ago, bmags said:

Do we think the world series just changed everything? Prior to then, I did not get the sense that they were immovable. I would say the "don't overpay for pitchers" is gospel and has been. The long term contracts, has been gospel.

But 23 years ago (lol) we did ditch our hitting coach when our 01 offense was trash. We did ditch Manuel for underperforming. We forced his pitching coaches out too.

At some point it hardened (maybe being projected 4th in 2005 - even though sox fans were all pretty pumped about that team) that everyone else is stupid except the people he hires and if everyone had their way (we'd do some stupid thing too early)

Honestly?  I don't think much changed because of 2005.  He'd always been resistant to change, and for one year he caught lightning in a bottle.  But it was easier to get lucky in 2005.  The gap between top and bottom didn't exist like it does now.  He didn't really change anything from 1981 to 2005, and he really hasn't changed anything from 2005-2024.  I think the difference is his unwillingness to change is more pronounced now as the game has changed a ton with modern analytics and it's integration into scouting.  I mean when you have a group openly mocking "computers" in 2024 it has more of an effect than being a luddite in 2005, or 1981.  In my head, if I were to envision "change" in MLB vs change in the White Sox, this is how it would look if a visual works better.  I think it is why the fall behind has been so dramatic this year.  There is just a higher top of baseball than there is ever been, and the median/average pack has very largely progressed as well.  Honestly, my graph might even been missing regression this year from the sounds of it.

10 minutes ago, Bob Sacamano said:

And the White Sox invested in….ticket sales reps

It's a bold strategy Cotton, let's see if it pays off for them.

 

25 minutes ago, T R U said:

Ill die on this hill, but if the Sox would just poach people from the TB/CLE front office and said "Do the same thing here you do there, but you also get a $180,000,000 million payroll" the White Sox would win this division or be right in it every single year.

I don't even understand why JR won't entertain this, he could probably even go lower on the payroll and still field a profitable and competitive team every year.

Probably because of the upfront investment cost.  Jerry has famously not invested in the minors in any way so he would have to overhaul all of that and hire actual instructors, then hire a bunch of analysts and create a process.  All things he is probably not interested in, despite cost savings down the road

 

like he said last year, he is old and doesn’t have time to wait!  Must speed up the process by not spending money and losing 230 games in two seasons, much faster 

6 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

Probably because of the upfront investment cost.  Jerry has famously not invested in the minors in any way so he would have to overhaul all of that and hire actual instructors, then hire a bunch of analysts and create a process.  All things he is probably not interested in, despite cost savings down the road

 

like he said last year, he is old and doesn’t have time to wait!  Must speed up the process by not spending money and losing 230 games in two seasons, much faster 

JR must have missed the memo on the draft changes and that teams are no longer trading away their top prospects for top trade deadline and offseason targets.  Sadly, the best chance the Sox had was during their first failed rebuild.

11 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

JR must have missed the memo on the draft changes and that teams are no longer trading away their top prospects for top trade deadline and offseason targets.  Sadly, the best chance the Sox had was during their first failed rebuild.

Yup… with the inability to draft in the first 10 rounds consecutively, the high price and competition of free agents, the lack of spending in our organization, the lack of developing position players, the lack of an international pipeline, and our reputation as a horrible place to sign…

We’re fucked folks.

38 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said:

Honestly?  I don't think much changed because of 2005.  He'd always been resistant to change, and for one year he caught lightning in a bottle.  But it was easier to get lucky in 2005.  The gap between top and bottom didn't exist like it does now.  He didn't really change anything from 1981 to 2005, and he really hasn't changed anything from 2005-2024.  I think the difference is his unwillingness to change is more pronounced now as the game has changed a ton with modern analytics and it's integration into scouting.  I mean when you have a group openly mocking "computers" in 2024 it has more of an effect than being a luddite in 2005, or 1981.  In my head, if I were to envision "change" in MLB vs change in the White Sox, this is how it would look if a visual works better.  I think it is why the fall behind has been so dramatic this year.  There is just a higher top of baseball than there is ever been, and the median/average pack has very largely progressed as well.  Honestly, my graph might even been missing regression this year from the sounds of it.

Probably, it does feel like the positions he felt like needed consistency expanded from "Front Office" to "Front office and managers" to "every non-player employee"

11 minutes ago, hi8is said:

Yup… with the inability to draft in the first 10 rounds consecutively, the high price and competition of free agents, the lack of spending in our organization, the lack of developing position players, the lack of an international pipeline, and our reputation as a horrible place to sign…

We’re fucked folks.

insanity is hiring from within over and over...

2 minutes ago, bmags said:

Probably, it does feel like the positions he felt like needed consistency expanded from "Front Office" to "Front office and managers" to "every non-player employee"

Also true.  But even more so important with how much new growth is in the game of baseball that we have completely ignored.

1 hour ago, T R U said:

Ill die on this hill, but if the Sox would just poach people from the TB/CLE front office and said "Do the same thing here you do there, but you also get a $180,000,000 million payroll" the White Sox would win this division or be right in it every single year.

I don't even understand why JR won't entertain this, he could probably even go lower on the payroll and still field a profitable and competitive team every year.

Some of us have been arguing this for years, not just you. It is so frustrating. So if you do this, put $30M into infrastructure and have a $150M top end budget instead of $190M, then I'm pretty sure they could be competitive on an annual basis. Also the Sox are a great brand and a sleeping giant in Chicago. 

Jerry is completely abusing this franchise and fanbase. 

Edited August 5, 20241 yr by baseball_gal_aly

1 hour ago, bmags said:

Do we think the world series just changed everything? Prior to then, I did not get the sense that they were immovable. I would say the "don't overpay for pitchers" is gospel and has been. The long term contracts, has been gospel.

But 23 years ago (lol) we did ditch our hitting coach when our 01 offense was trash. We did ditch Manuel for underperforming. We forced his pitching coaches out too.

At some point it hardened (maybe being projected 4th in 2005 - even though sox fans were all pretty pumped about that team) that everyone else is stupid except the people he hires and if everyone had their way (we'd do some stupid thing too early)

It happened slowly and then all at once.

1 hour ago, bmags said:

Do we think the world series just changed everything? Prior to then, I did not get the sense that they were immovable. I would say the "don't overpay for pitchers" is gospel and has been. The long term contracts, has been gospel.

But 23 years ago (lol) we did ditch our hitting coach when our 01 offense was trash. We did ditch Manuel for underperforming. We forced his pitching coaches out too.

At some point it hardened (maybe being projected 4th in 2005 - even though sox fans were all pretty pumped about that team) that everyone else is stupid except the people he hires and if everyone had their way (we'd do some stupid thing too early)

I think the WS reinforced to JR, his way was the only way. You would think as bad as the Sox have been, and as bad as the Bulls have been since their run, he would realize that it doesn't work anymore, and probably never really did. He had Jordan,  and couldn't wait until he left so he and Crumbs could get more credit. It blew up in their faces.  With baseball, he's never had sustained success, even though he has had a huge division advantage. I used to think he was a pretty bright guy, now, I'm not so sure. 

If you take away the (arguably) greatest player in the history of the sport that he happened to acquire when he bought the team, and he’s got 1 championship in 82 combined years of ownership.

47 minutes ago, baseball_gal_aly said:

Some of us have been arguing this for years, not just you. It is so frustrating. So if you do this, put $30M into infrastructure and have a $150M top end budget instead of $190M, then I'm pretty sure they could be competitive on an annual basis. Also the Sox are a great brand and a sleeping giant in Chicago. 

Jerry is completely abusing this franchise and fanbase. 

With the Sox its most likely the answer is that it’s just both…but I do think there is a chicken or the egg question in terms of is talent acquisition or talent development being the bigger problem. There’s undoubtedly talent acquisition problems (especially at the mlb level), but when you get to something like the Chris Sale trade and we are getting nothing out of what were multiple consensus top prospects at the time, it does make you wonder. 
 

I guess what I’m getting at is that I don’t think a couple of new guys in the front office are going to change everything. You would almost have to just start the entire organization over from the minor league coaching up. But obviously new, outside, voices in the front office would be a great start.

15 minutes ago, TheFutureIsNear said:

With the Sox its most likely the answer is that it’s just both…but I do think there is a chicken or the egg question in terms of is talent acquisition or talent development being the bigger problem. There’s undoubtedly talent acquisition problems (especially at the mlb level), but when you get to something like the Chris Sale trade and we are getting nothing out of what were multiple consensus top prospects at the time, it does make you wonder. 
 

I guess what I’m getting at is that I don’t think a couple of new guys in the front office are going to change everything. You would almost have to just start the entire organization over from the minor league coaching up. But obviously new, outside, voices in the front office would be a great start.

They didn't get nothing out of Moncada, he just was an oft injured solid MLB regular rather than Jose Ramirez. 

1 hour ago, baseball_gal_aly said:

Some of us have been arguing this for years, not just you. It is so frustrating. So if you do this, put $30M into infrastructure and have a $150M top end budget instead of $190M, then I'm pretty sure they could be competitive on an annual basis. Also the Sox are a great brand and a sleeping giant in Chicago. 

Jerry is completely abusing this franchise and fanbase. 

I don't think it would take anywhere close to $30 million.  I think a ton could be done with less than a Maldonado signing.

2 hours ago, southsider2k5 said:

I don't think anyone, except Jerry, would argue with you.

Edited August 5, 20241 yr by Saufley
Don't want to stoop that low about somethinhg medical. pleases remove

13 hours ago, hankchifan said:

I suggest that Sox fans boycott attendance to GRF until Grifol is fired or at least the losing streak is over.  Hit JR in the pocketbook.

From the league numbers I’ve seen, I think his pocketbook is definitely taking a hit. 

3 hours ago, T R U said:

Ill die on this hill, but if the Sox would just poach people from the TB/CLE front office and said "Do the same thing here you do there, but you also get a $180,000,000 million payroll" the White Sox would win this division or be right in it every single year.

I don't even understand why JR won't entertain this, he could probably even go lower on the payroll and still field a profitable and competitive team every year.

I believe that JR has a very specific, very idiosyncratic vision of how “things should be,” with regards to compensation, player culture, management structure, fan experience, public relations, etc. I believe that vision may have had some link to reality in about the 1980’s, but has persisted totally unchanged in the subsequent decades, other than perhaps to have been strengthened in the few instances that someone was able to talk him into some divergent tactical decision that went onto fail anyway because of the impossible scenario within which it was expected to thrive. With each year that passes, JR’s version of “the business of sports” becomes increasingly untethered from anything resembling current reality, but unlike an average person in this scenario, JR’s superpower is to remain unflinchingly stubborn, such that no amount of influence or persuasion can pull him from his course, and perhaps to the point that the most heroic efforts to do so may even further harden his resolve. 

I believe he truly wants to win. But he ONLY wants to win HIS WAY. And having mired himself in this cesspool of toxicity for so many years, it may even be to the point where he would refuse an opportunity to win any other way, even if it was right in front of him. He has become an anti-hero, so unwilling to get out of his own way that he now finds himself consistently in the way of others’, but his utter lack of self-awareness and shame make it impossible even to pity him.

Maybe years after he’s gone, we’ll be ready to dig in further, because I think he may be as interesting as he is malignant — but it doesn’t feel interesting right now. 

I saw some people on Twitter (I know, don’t care) mention that if they get swept in Oakland and then lose the Opener to the Cubs, they will have the MLB record losing streak.  It would then be followed by a fireworks show (scheduled).  That would be something.