ptatc Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Y2Jimmy0 said: It was always a 100 loss team. When Cease was traded, we said on the FutureSox podcast that it might be a 50 win team. Nobody thought they'd go 41-101 but I mean, 50-112 isn't much different. I don't think enough people understand this. Many on here are saying that the Sox lied to them about the team. Which is true but would the reaction been any different if they were honest? If they came out and said we are purposely going to tear the team down and lose, people would have reacted the same way. JR is cheap and doesn't have a clue how to run an organization. Very few teams are going to say they are purposely going to lose. But fans know when it's happening. We'll just need to see how this version turns out. Edited January 26 by ptatc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 13 minutes ago, ptatc said: I don't think enough people understand this. Many on here are saying that the Sox lied to them about the team. Which is true but would the reaction been any different if they were honest? There are fans on this site who still haven't gotten over Reinsdorf's brutally honest remarks in a radio interview right after the White Flag trade in 1997. People's reactions clearly dictate that they want to hear corporate CYA double-speak. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 10 minutes ago, WestEddy said: There are fans on this site who still haven't gotten over Reinsdorf's brutally honest remarks in a radio interview right after the White Flag trade in 1997. People's reactions clearly dictate that they want to hear corporate CYA double-speak. I agree with different people having different preferences. The reaction is going to be the same either way except for the people offended by the lies. But again, what do people expect then to say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 19 minutes ago, ptatc said: I don't think enough people understand this. Many on here are saying that the Sox lied to them about the team. Which is true but would the reaction been any different if they were honest? If they came out and said we are purposely going to tear the team down and lose, people would have reacted the same way. JR is cheap and doesn't have a clue how to run an organization. Very few teams are going to say they are purposely going to lose. But fans know when it's happening. We'll just need to see how this version turns out. To me, it’s a matter of insulting our intelligence. We all saw the same thing, but they tried to tell us it was a quick turnaround, we’re not wasting a year, etc. Again, it’s a matter of showing the fans that you live in the same reality as they do. I personally don’t like being lied to (option A), and I don’t like to follow teams who are so detached from reality that they can’t even figure out that they’re on the precipice of another 100+ loss season (option B). Either way, it stinks. The only way out of it would have been to own up to the situation from the start rather than trying to bullshit us. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 11 minutes ago, WestEddy said: There are fans on this site who still haven't gotten over Reinsdorf's brutally honest remarks in a radio interview right after the White Flag trade in 1997. People's reactions clearly dictate that they want to hear corporate CYA double-speak. What I can't get over is JR saying theSox can't wastea year, and a lie he also stated when hiring Getz was 2024 would be better than 2023. Toure OK being lied to, that's fine. You want to believe the reason the Sox won the division in 2000 was the White Flag trade. That's great. You have bought a team 3 games out at the end of July with Thomas, Belle, and Ventura the heart of the batting order, had no chance. That's great. Let's see if youre consistently the future. I'm guessing not. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 4 minutes ago, JoeC said: To me, it’s a matter of insulting our intelligence. We all saw the same thing, but they tried to tell us it was a quick turnaround, we’re not wasting a year, etc. Again, it’s a matter of showing the fans that you live in the same reality as they do. I personally don’t like being lied to (option A), and I don’t like to follow teams who are so detached from reality that they can’t even figure out that they’re on the precipice of another 100+ loss season (option B). Either way, it stinks. The only way out of it would have been to own up to the situation from the start rather than trying to bullshit Of course either way sucks. It means the team is bad. What would you rather they say, "we know we are bad and have no talent. Thus we are purposely going to get rid of any player with talent to try to rebuild the team and we are going to lose a ton of games." I think that would get them in trouble with the union and probably MLB. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptatc Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: What I can't get over is JR saying theSox can't wastea year, and a lie he also stated when hiring Getz was 2024 would be better than 2023. Toure OK being lied to, that's fine. You want to believe the reason the Sox won the division in 2000 was the White Flag trade. That's great. You have bought a team 3 games out at the end of July with Thomas, Belle, and Ventura the heart of the batting order, had no chance. That's great. Let's see if youre consistently the future. I'm guessing not. That quote from JR i would agree with. He just shouldn't have said it. I can see people staying mad at that one. He can't come out and say we are trying to suck but he also doesn't have to purposely try to build it up either. Being a sports fan you are always being lied to about the possibility for the teams. Even good teams have the "great culture and every player is in the best shape of their lives stories." It's just easier to deal with when they are good. Edited January 26 by ptatc 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 6 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: What I can't get over is JR saying theSox can't wastea year, and a lie he also stated when hiring Getz was 2024 would be better than 2023. Toure OK being lied to, that's fine. You want to believe the reason the Sox won the division in 2000 was the White Flag trade. That's great. You have bought a team 3 games out at the end of July with Thomas, Belle, and Ventura the heart of the batting order, had no chance. That's great. Let's see if youre consistently the future. I'm guessing not. If you can't get over it, then you can't get over it. I don't find myself getting outraged if a player doesn't actually "stay within himself" or consider myself lied to if they didn't present "the best version of themselves". For the most part, sports people have nothing of value to say. I wasn't duped by their remarks. We all knew it was a rebuild. I get not wanting one's intelligence insulted. Nobody believes the Sox won in 2000 because of the White Flag trade that basically netted two relievers, a shortstop who didn't stick long, and a few cup-of-coffee arms. After every July '97 loss, all Ozzie Guillen or Roberto Hernandez could talk about wasn't the game they just lost, but trade rumors. That team was infuriatingly average and couldn't get out of their own way. It was great to have an owner get fed up and just trade guys out of his frustration with a middling team. One of the high points of Reinsdorf's tenure. I don't know what "if youre consistently the future" means. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 18 minutes ago, ptatc said: Of course either way sucks. It means the team is bad. What would you rather they say, "we know we are bad and have no talent. Thus we are purposely going to get rid of any player with talent to try to rebuild the team and we are going to lose a ton of games." I think that would get them in trouble with the union and probably MLB. They're basically saying this, now. And it can be a goal to play better fundamental baseball, and still have fielders who commit errors. That's not really a lie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 54 minutes ago, WestEddy said: There are fans on this site who still haven't gotten over Reinsdorf's brutally honest remarks in a radio interview right after the White Flag trade in 1997. People's reactions clearly dictate that they want to hear corporate CYA double-speak. Before you just said White Flag, when was the last Soxtalk post mentioning it? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 42 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: What I can't get over is JR saying theSox can't wastea year, and a lie he also stated when hiring Getz was 2024 would be better than 2023. Toure OK being lied to, that's fine. You want to believe the reason the Sox won the division in 2000 was the White Flag trade. That's great. You have bought a team 3 games out at the end of July with Thomas, Belle, and Ventura the heart of the batting order, had no chance. That's great. Let's see if youre consistently the future. I'm guessing not. I really appreciate the intellectual honesty to equate being 3 games out of first place with a 106 loss team as being somehow equal in how they should be addressed by management in public. Totally the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 42 minutes ago, ptatc said: That quote from JR i would agree with. He just shouldn't have said it. I can see people staying mad at that one. He can't come out and say we are trying to suck but he also doesn't have to purposely try to build it up either. Being a sports fan you are always being lied to about the possibility for the teams. Even good teams have the "great culture and every player is in the best shape of their lives stories." It's just easier to deal with when they are good. If only there was some middle ground between this and we can't waste a year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 29 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Before you just said White Flag, when was the last Soxtalk post mentioning it? The Dick Allen dude just had a visceral reaction to that situation. I get the feeling Liptak has written books about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 28 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: I really appreciate the intellectual honesty to equate being 3 games out of first place with a 106 loss team as being somehow equal in how they should be addressed by management in public. Totally the same thing. Then you're actually okay being lied to if a team is 5 games over .500? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 22 minutes ago, WestEddy said: The Dick Allen dude just had a visceral reaction to that situation. I get the feeling Liptak has written books about it. Never wrote a book about it but a did write a long historical story about it and the ramifications for the Sox both on and off the field. There’s a Hole in the Toe of My White Sox. The “White Flag Trade” Revisited…25 Years…and Counting On the morning of August 1, 1997 White Sox fans woke up to this headline in the Chicago Tribune: Surrender! Sox Deliver a San Francisco Treat: Hernandez, Alvarez and Darwin go west As Sox Chances Go South 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, ptatc said: Of course either way sucks. It means the team is bad. What would you rather they say, "we know we are bad and have no talent. Thus we are purposely going to get rid of any player with talent to try to rebuild the team and we are going to lose a ton of games." I think that would get them in trouble with the union and probably MLB. Or he could have said literally a whole lot of emptiness like “we have a lot of work ahead of us, and we’re leaving all options on the table. All we ask our guys to do is to work hard and play together as a team through thick and thin, and we’ll see how to best address our long term outlook.” Pretty much any canned statement that didn’t try to put a completely incredibly positive spin on it, really, would have at least told me “hey - they’re not trying to bullshit us, at least.” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeC Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, ptatc said: That quote from JR i would agree with. He just shouldn't have said it. I can see people staying mad at that one. He can't come out and say we are trying to suck but he also doesn't have to purposely try to build it up either. Being a sports fan you are always being lied to about the possibility for the teams. Even good teams have the "great culture and every player is in the best shape of their lives stories." It's just easier to deal with when they are good. It’s the way he said it. “Anyone who thinks we can catch Cleveland is crazy” is literally insulting your fans. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 3 hours ago, Y2Jimmy0 said: It was always a 100 loss team. When Cease was traded, we said on the FutureSox podcast that it might be a 50 win team. Nobody thought they'd go 41-101 but I mean, 50-112 isn't much different. We all know that, but Getz spent the winter signing wash up vets under the guise on not wasting a year. Our qualm is how disingenuous they were about it. What they sold to fans last winter wasn't "building from the ground up", which is why saying so now rings so hollow. It is what it is, but there's no reason for revisionist history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tnetennba Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 2 hours ago, ptatc said: I don't think enough people understand this. Many on here are saying that the Sox lied to them about the team. Which is true but would the reaction been any different if they were honest? If they came out and said we are purposely going to tear the team down and lose, people would have reacted the same way. JR is cheap and doesn't have a clue how to run an organization. Very few teams are going to say they are purposely going to lose. But fans know when it's happening. We'll just need to see how this version turns out. The least they could have done is admit to the fanbase that they recognize where they are as an org and be honest about the lengthy and difficult path forward. Yes, some fans might still be upset, but that's better than the bald-faced lies that leave us not only upset, but disillusioned about the org and questioning the level to which they are detached from the same realities. Just being honest about it isn't a fix, but it goes a long way towards repairing the relationship with the fanbase. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg775 Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 (edited) Well offseason is finished in my mind. A couple more days til Feb. 1. February means spring training and the Sox frankly have had the most pathetic offseason in my lifetime. They got rid of Sale, I mean Crochet, and added that one trade worth of prospects and a bunch of old mediocres. The pitching staff is made up of a bunch of nobodies. Until they get going in April, May I am confident 80 percent of Sox fans could not name 50 percent of our 2025 roster. 50 percent may be way too high. This franchise is despicable. I'd rather be sent to Antartica for a month than purchase mlb.com to watch this wretched team. Robert is staying it looks like. So he's the attraction, the one "star." Good luck Mr. Robert shouldering the load. It's apparent it is you and a bunch of stiffs representing the Sox in 2025. I do wish him well. Vaughn would be the next closest guy resembling a big leaguer but he's had his chances and he's Mr. Mediocre/Try Hard Though. Oh there's Beni. I'd rather have Rowand or Vance Law. Feb. 1. How depressing to know the roster is about complete. I predict 35-45 wins. I'm thinking 39 wins somehow. Q: is the sox current pitching staff, starters, openers and relievers, by far the worst in Sox history, maybe baseball history? Wait til u see the 6-7 we use every game lose almost every game. Edited January 26 by greg775 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 11 minutes ago, Tnetennba said: We all know that, but Getz spent the winter signing wash up vets under the guise on not wasting a year. Our qualm is how disingenuous they were about it. What they sold to fans last winter wasn't "building from the ground up", which is why saying so now rings so hollow. It is what it is, but there's no reason for revisionist history. 12/5/23 - https://www.chicagotribune.com/2023/12/04/chris-getz-in-his-first-winter-meetings-as-chicago-white-sox-gm-is-focused-on-trying-to-find-ways-to-get-better/ All he seems to talk about is "trying to get better", you know, coming off of a 100 loss season. 9/9/23 - https://www.mlb.com/news/chris-getz-talks-future-plans-before-white-sox-loss Talks about being frustrated with certain aspects of team, "need to get better". 8/31/23 - https://sports.yahoo.com/chris-getz-delivers-first-statement-015215122.html I am not naive to the expectation that things need to change. To that, I would say "the fans deserve different, I am different, we will be different." Being better in 2024 and forward "starts with a strong foundation". "Quickly fill the gaps with outside hires, bring innovation, creation and energy." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 (edited) 1 hour ago, JoeC said: It’s the way he said it. “Anyone who thinks we can catch Cleveland is crazy” is literally insulting your fans. People weren't mad at JR for telling his truth, they were mad he gave up. Non Sox fans also thought it was a disgrace. Bur the resident organization water carrier spins it another way. Which, ironically enough is a lie. BTW, Cleveland won 86 games that year. Not exactly a juggernaut, and Ventura had pretty much just returned. Edited January 26 by Dick Allen 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Deep Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 3 hours ago, ptatc said: That quote from JR i would agree with. He just shouldn't have said it. I can see people staying mad at that one. He can't come out and say we are trying to suck but he also doesn't have to purposely try to build it up either. Being a sports fan you are always being lied to about the possibility for the teams. Even good teams have the "great culture and every player is in the best shape of their lives stories." It's just easier to deal with when they are good. Are we really defending Jerry? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestEddy Posted January 26 Share Posted January 26 37 minutes ago, Dick Allen said: People weren't mad at JR for telling his truth, they were mad he gave up. Non Sox fans also thought it was a disgrace. Bur the resident organization water carrier spins it another way. Which, ironically enough is a lie. BTW, Cleveland won 86 games that year. Not exactly a juggernaut, and Ventura had pretty much just returned. The entire season up to the trade, the Sox never got more than 5 games over .500. Sure, I'll give you outrage over giving up. Thus, "White Flag". But my main point, which you're proving, is that people are still mad about that trade, and Reinsdorf's comments about it, which was him being honest. There really isn't an argument, here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted January 26 Author Share Posted January 26 2 hours ago, WestEddy said: The Dick Allen dude just had a visceral reaction to that situation. I get the feeling Liptak has written books about it. So no one for years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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