5/18 Gamethread...

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

12 minutes ago, T R U said:

Andrew Vaughn has never been good. He's in his 5th year and has a career bWAR of -0.2, he's just not a good major leaguer. 

What has happened to Luis Robert sucks, however, he fell right in line with the rest of our heralded players like Moncada, Jimenez, Anderson, etc.

At this point, the blame has to go to the organization and the operation were running here unless you just believe all these super talented and high end prospects all just lost their ability to play over the same window.

None of those other guys got it back after leaving so far. Maybe it was just their injuries permanently damaged their abilities . Not sure what to think about Anderson. His whole life spiraled down and he had a lot to do with that. 

Strange to draw a conclusion that the blame lies with the organization just because multiple players failed approximately the same time. They all had multiple difficulties . Do you think in other organizations they wouldn't have self destructed ? Maybe they just couldn't handle being rich and famous or their body's and minds betrayed them.  Wouldn't be the 1st time egos and/ or injuries ruined once promising careers.

[WBWSF]

11 hours ago, WookiesOnRitalin said:

 

I think this ignores a couple key points. This team's two "best" hitters are currently batting .184. Imagine, if they were batting roughly .250? If the Sox were getting any production from the middle of their lineup and from players who have produced previously, the Sox would be fairing much better this year. 

 

For whatever reason, Vaughn and Robert have just turned to trash. How many teams are letting two full time starters bat below .200 before pulling them? For the Sox, they do not have a choice. They have to keep playing them and hope something changes. Right now, their value and contributions are at an all time low. 

I've never seen a player like Robert Jr totally collapse as a hitter. Older players, yes, Robert  Jr is young and he looks like he couldn't hit me. What Happened to him? Was it his injuries?. If he keeps this up he might be out of baseball next year.

[Kyyle23]

21 minutes ago, CaliSoxFanViaSWside said:

None of those other guys got it back after leaving so far. Maybe it was just their injuries permanently damaged their abilities . Not sure what to think about Anderson. His whole life spiraled down and he had a lot to do with that. 

Strange to draw a conclusion that the blame lies with the organization just because multiple players failed approximately the same time. They all had multiple difficulties . Do you think in other organizations they wouldn't have self destructed ? Maybe they just couldn't handle being rich and famous or their body's and minds betrayed them.  Wouldn't be the 1st time egos and/ or injuries ruined once promising careers.

It’s weird how you dance around blaming the organization for bungling the development of multiple players that were supposedly destined to be stars.  The bottom line is that the organization is responsible for the development of the players within, and we had a playoff team(right or wrong two years in a row) just evaporate in front of us, all of the offensive players just forgot how to do what made them special.  I have no problem connecting the dots of their development failures to this organization, and after watching the exact same thing I have watched over the last five years it’s strange that you won’t connect the dots too.  
 

We both want the same thing.  I don’t want this organization to be as bad at development as they have been, but they let us all down terribly and now we are still fumbling in the dark 

[Quin]

9 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

It’s weird how you dance around blaming the organization for bungling the development of multiple players that were supposedly destined to be stars.  The bottom line is that the organization is responsible for the development of the players within, and we had a playoff team(right or wrong two years in a row) just evaporate in front of us, all of the offensive players just forgot how to do what made them special.  I have no problem connecting the dots of their development failures to this organization, and after watching the exact same thing I have watched over the last five years it’s strange that you won’t connect the dots too.  
 

We both want the same thing.  I don’t want this organization to be as bad at development as they have been, but they let us all down terribly and now we are still fumbling in the dark 

And all of these players ranked just as — or higher — than Vargas, which is what people played up when they acquired him. They also went through hot streaks and somehow based on a month of not being the worst hitter in baseball + a good Cubs series, he is now the future.

Eloy was a pure Cubs killer.

[WBWSF]

5 hours ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Perhaps not get so angry about the inevitable?  The Cubs will probably sweep the Sox again in late July at The Rate.  Good teams usually beat bad teams.  But you do you.

I live in Chicago as well and it really doesn’t matter — everyone knows that the Cubs are the talk of the town and the Sox are a joke both locally and nationally.  Making fun of the Sox and Sox fans is like kicking a dead horse here.

Yeah good teams beat bad teams. But did you notice that  a bad Angels team swept the Dodgers  this weekend?  Its disgraceful that the White Sox have lost 8 straight games to the Cubs. Its even more disgraceful that White Sox ownership doesn't care. 

Edited May 19 by WBWSF

[WhiteSox2023]

18 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

Yeah good teams bad teams. But did you notice that  a bad Angels team swept the Dodgers  this weekend?  Its disgraceful that the White Sox have lost 8 straight games to the Cubs. Its even more disgraceful that White Sox ownership doesn't care. 

Can’t argue with you here.  Jerry promoted an underqualified guy to be his new GM and to run another rebuild for the main purpose of saving money.  There are some teams and front offices that are constantly rebuilding and can still have some success, but the Sox are not one of those teams.

[southsider2k5]

29 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

It’s weird how you dance around blaming the organization for bungling the development of multiple players that were supposedly destined to be stars.  The bottom line is that the organization is responsible for the development of the players within, and we had a playoff team(right or wrong two years in a row) just evaporate in front of us, all of the offensive players just forgot how to do what made them special.  I have no problem connecting the dots of their development failures to this organization, and after watching the exact same thing I have watched over the last five years it’s strange that you won’t connect the dots too.  
 

We both want the same thing.  I don’t want this organization to be as bad at development as they have been, but they let us all down terribly and now we are still fumbling in the dark 

And if the people in charge of their development, somehow aren't able to do that job of development, they probably shouldn't be in jobs that involve evaluating and getting the most of young talent.

[tray]

IMO..."player development" has been be overrated specifically when it comes to the ability of players to hit the baseball. OK Vargas shows short term improvement by holding his bat up higher, but arguably, that is not player development. That is a tweak for a great baseball player who plays excellent defense and already had innate eye/hand coordination/ bat skills. Compare the development resources being afforded to Colson Montgomery and the results. Look, some players are born with the eye hand coordination and the physical tools to be good hitters. Others just waste time pursuing a dream that is never going to happen or with players like AV, hit a plateau in their careers that they will never transcend. IMO, with some exceptions I am sure, a good sense for talent evaluation is far more important than player development.

[kitekrazy]

1 hour ago, WBWSF said:

I've never seen a player like Robert Jr totally collapse as a hitter. Older players, yes, Robert  Jr is young and he looks like he couldn't hit me. What Happened to him? Was it his injuries?. If he keeps this up he might be out of baseball next year.

Baseball is full of them.  Sometimes it can be a full season. Two I remember is Konerko and Chet Lemon,

[kitekrazy]

1 hour ago, Kyyle23 said:

It’s weird how you dance around blaming the organization for bungling the development of multiple players that were supposedly destined to be stars.  The bottom line is that the organization is responsible for the development of the players within, and we had a playoff team(right or wrong two years in a row) just evaporate in front of us, all of the offensive players just forgot how to do what made them special.  I have no problem connecting the dots of their development failures to this organization, and after watching the exact same thing I have watched over the last five years it’s strange that you won’t connect the dots too.  
 

We both want the same thing.  I don’t want this organization to be as bad at development as they have been, but they let us all down terribly and now we are still fumbling in the dark 

Part of that is knowing weaknesses you can't fix and avoid getting those players. 

Them you have to look at the scouts involved in suggesting those bad picks and not employ them anymore. In our stats driven society you can spend time looking at a tablet and not watch a guy play.  

[Kyyle23]

14 minutes ago, kitekrazy said:

Part of that is knowing weaknesses you can't fix and avoid getting those players. 

Them you have to look at the scouts involved in suggesting those bad picks and not employ them anymore. In our stats driven society you can spend time looking at a tablet and not watch a guy play.  

Ok, when 4-5 core players forget to play the professional game that pays them very well, my first thought isn’t “they should hire new scouts and not get players with weaknesses”. why?  Because all players have weaknesses and a wholesale change of scouts isn’t gonna make your players remember how to play.

at some point this type of response has to end in this forum.  Both players AND organizations have responsibility in development and the last five years we have been shown both through results and ex players and coaches comments that this organization is YEARS if not decades behind their competitors in regards to development.  When the players just en masse start falling off, I can’t keep saying it’s the players.  There is a significant part of this process that the Sox are missing 

and NOW we have to trust them to get this right 

[Chick Mercedes]

2 hours ago, T R U said:

Andrew Vaughn has never been good. He's in his 5th year and has a career bWAR of -0.2, he's just not a good major leaguer. 

What has happened to Luis Robert sucks, however, he fell right in line with the rest of our heralded players like Moncada, Jimenez, Anderson, etc.

At this point, the blame has to go to the organization and the operation were running here unless you just believe all these super talented and high end prospects all just lost their ability to play over the same window.

That’s the same WAR as his replacement so far LOL. 

[chitownsportsfan]

53 minutes ago, tray said:

IMO..."player development" has been be overrated specifically when it comes to the ability of players to hit the baseball. OK Vargas shows short term improvement by holding his bat up higher, but arguably, that is not player development. That is a tweak for a great baseball player who plays excellent defense and already had innate eye/hand coordination/ bat skills. Compare the development resources being afforded to Colson Montgomery and the results. Look, some players are born with the eye hand coordination and the physical tools to be good hitters. Others just waste time pursuing a dream that is never going to happen or with players like AV, hit a plateau in their careers that they will never transcend. IMO, with some exceptions I am sure, a good sense for talent evaluation is far more important than player development.

Don't often agree with you but on this one I think you're pretty spot on. If there's a "development" problem it's as much a scouting problem as development. Eloy and Moncada and Vaughn as a trio have very little love for their craft. Eloy might enjoy playing and Vaughn might have a stern look and Moncada might get a little excited once and awhile but none of them really love to work on their profession in the offseason. It just showed up over time. That's as much on the scouts that recommended their makeup as the coaches trying to get more out of them imo.

[Quin]

24 minutes ago, Chick Mercedes said:

That’s the same WAR as his replacement so far LOL. 

No one look at Jac Caglianone's numbers so far.

[T R U]

58 minutes ago, Quin said:

No one look at Jac Caglianone's numbers so far.

Oh yeah, that stings, but I can at least appreciate they recognize they will never sign a high end SP so I get taking Hagen Smith instead.

Cags would solve a lot of problems for this offense though.

[fathom]

1 hour ago, Quin said:

No one look at Jac Caglianone's numbers so far.

Yeah….hopefully Hagen turns it around 

[2Deep]

Andrew Vaughn needs to be sent to minors for a reset and give one more opportunity this year to come back up.  He has no recognition of the strike zone and swings at sliders like he's never seen one before.  

[Kyyle23]

39 minutes ago, 2Deep said:

Andrew Vaughn needs to be sent to minors for a reset and give one more opportunity this year to come back up.  He has no recognition of the strike zone and swings at sliders like he's never seen one before.  

My dude, this isn’t new 

[Snopek]

4 hours ago, WBWSF said:

I've never seen a player like Robert Jr totally collapse as a hitter. Older players, yes, Robert  Jr is young and he looks like he couldn't hit me. What Happened to him? Was it his injuries?. If he keeps this up he might be out of baseball next year.

Maybe not to the extreme of Robert, but we saw it with Eloy, Yoan and TA as well. 

[2Deep]

43 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

My dude, this isn’t new 

I understand that.  My meaning was that it's getting worse.  He was a much better hitter when he 1st came up.

[Kyyle23]

27 minutes ago, 2Deep said:

I understand that.  My meaning was that it's getting worse.  He was a much better hitter when he 1st came up.

It just feels to me like the book is out on him.  He can’t catch the big heat and he isn’t exactly waiting to crush breaking pitches.  Pitchers know what to do 

[oldsox]

2 hours ago, Quin said:

No one look at Jac Caglianone's numbers so far.

Sox went in the other direction, because we had Vaughn, Elko, and that other first sacker at Bham ahead of him.

[2Deep]

28 minutes ago, Kyyle23 said:

It just feels to me like the book is out on him.  He can’t catch the big heat and he isn’t exactly waiting to crush breaking pitches.  Pitchers know what to do 

That's why I think you have to send him down and try a reset.  Otherwise his career is basically over.  It still may be over even if they send him down and try to reset him but I would at least try.  

[caulfield12]

1 hour ago, oldsox said:

Sox went in the other direction, because we had Vaughn, Elko, and that other first sacker at Bham ahead of him.

Getz has never really considered Elko or basically any of the Birmingham hitters like Jacob Gonzalez or Veras or Galanie part of the long term plan (in various comments over the last year).

 

Elko forced their hand eventually...but they don't really seem to actually believe in him.

 

That was all about expertise with LHP and never paying up for it through free agency.  If Vaughn was still perceived as the long term answer at 1B  when that draft occurred...God help them.

Edited May 19 by caulfield12

[tray]

5 hours ago, chitownsportsfan said:

Don't often agree with you but on this one I think you're pretty spot on. If there's a "development" problem it's as much a scouting problem as development. Eloy and Moncada and Vaughn as a trio have very little love for their craft. Eloy might enjoy playing and Vaughn might have a stern look and Moncada might get a little excited once and awhile but none of them really love to work on their profession in the offseason. It just showed up over time. That's as much on the scouts that recommended their makeup as the coaches trying to get more out of them imo.

There is a lot to be said about evaluating  players based on their work habits, motivation, and possibly commitment to winning and to the team.  That was not my point but it may have been yours.   So you can safely remain in good stead with other disagree-ers.

My point was about the evaluation of hitting skills. There are players in the Minor league that scouts should evaluate based  on their abilities to consistently see and hit the ball.  Very simple. IMO as a fan only, Colson Montgomery's ability to hit at the major league  level is questionable. Braden Montgomery is the opposite. He puts the bat on the ball. Same with K Teel.  

Nevertheless, Sox org. keeps pushing Colson Montgomery  with every development tool at their disposal even though he may well be a lost cause and conversely waiting on players like Braden and Kyle T. to "develop." 

Edited May 19 by tray