NO!!MARY!!! Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 16 hours ago, soxrwhite said: If he played for the Yankees all those years he played for the White Sox he'd already be in. No, he wouldn’t Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 23 minutes ago, NO!!MARY!!! said: No, he wouldn’t Mike Mussina says hi. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quin Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 Anyway, I am once again sharing The Curious Case of Mark Buehrle. Buehrle's defense gets undersold in his argument. We all know about his fielding, but Quote Inning for inning, Buehrle has the highest pickoff rate in recorded history for anyone with at least 1,600 innings. And that doesn't even consider the chilling effect of how many runners just didn't go against him because running against Buehrle was a terrible idea. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 18 minutes ago, Quin said: Anyway, I am once again sharing The Curious Case of Mark Buehrle. Buehrle's defense gets undersold in his argument. We all know about his fielding, but And that doesn't even consider the chilling effect of how many runners just didn't go against him because running against Buehrle was a terrible idea. When not picked off, runners were successful 59 out of 140 attempts against Buehrle. I think that's remarkable, both in the low volume of attempts and when considering that MB never really threw to strong throwing catchers. Plus, usually success rates go up when volume goes down; only the guys who know they will succeed bother trying. Next on the pickoff list is Steve Carlton, who picked off just one fewer* runner. But those who weren't picked off were 229 for 393 against him, a much higher volume and success rate (not exactly a good success rate though). Then there's MB's contemporary Andy Pettitte with two fewer pickoffs. Runners were 189 for 271 against him. Randy Johnson is #11 in pickoffs with 58, but runners really ran wild on him — 456 steals in 680 tries. Big Unit just caught them guessing now and then. MB surely got a large portion of his pickoffs on guys who didn't even plan to steal, which is pretty funny since it had to be all over the scouting report. * Numerous sources say if Steve Carlton played his entire career in the era in which pickoffs were an official stat, he'd be #1 on the pickoffs leaderboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reiks12 Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 17 hours ago, soxrwhite said: If he played for the Yankees all those years he played for the White Sox he'd already be in. Theres no question. If he had a Red Sox or Yankees hat hes in by now. If CC stayed with Cleveland like Buehrle stayed with then i bet CC is in the same category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 13 hours ago, Milkman delivers said: Buehrle needed only to stick around for a few more years and he probably would’ve gotten to 250 wins or very close, and he’d be in. I respect his decision to walk away though, and I don’t think he cares about getting into the Hall. He may yet, but it’ll be the Veterans Committee or something. @Jake, were the majority of those stolen bases Ichiro? Well I clicked on every game that Ichiro took an AB against Buehrle and don't see any steals off of MB by Ichiro. Edgar Martinez (???) somehow stole 2nd off of MB and Ben Davis in one of those games, though. Also, Chone Figgins stole home on MB once. Sox should have traded for him! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 16 minutes ago, Jake said: Well I clicked on every game that Ichiro took an AB against Buehrle and don't see any steals off of MB by Ichiro. Edgar Martinez (???) somehow stole 2nd off of MB and Ben Davis in one of those games, though. Also, Chone Figgins stole home on MB once. Sox should have traded for him! Don't give Getz any ideas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteSox2023 Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 26 minutes ago, southsider2k5 said: Don't give Getz any ideas. I remember Kenny used to love Chone and tried to acquire him a couple times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxfan99 Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 2 hours ago, Quin said: Mike Mussina says hi. Mike Mussina was way better and a clear hall of famer. Sabathia vs. Buehrle is close but Sabathia has the Cy Young which goes a long way. Mussina accumulated over 80 WAR to Buehrle 60 (for bWAR and the gap is even bigger for fWAR). They don't belong in the same conversation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejoesox Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 i never knew that Buerhle had a 3rd game with 27 up and 27 down outside of the nono and PG, you never hear anyone bring that up on sports talk shows/podcasts, or online/radio/tv. 2004 vs CLE, 2 hitter CGSO, both baserunners were erased by GIDP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoUEvenShift Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 (edited) 21 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: A guy who pitched quick in an era of slowness. He threw slow when everyone else was starting to fixate on velo. A guy who mastered the fringes in a way that got him off the fringe. A pitching doctor, who understood the mental side of the game better than most anyone who has stepped on a mound. The speed he pitched at is also underrated. Especially considering how slow the average game was getting at that time. Games Under 2 Hours (2000-pres) *this is from 2020 so there are probably more <2 hour games since pitch clock* Buehrle 10 Webb 5 Halladay 5 Lima 5 Duke 4 Carpenter 4 6 others 3 My aunt and uncle splurged on scout seats one time for the experience. (Unlimited food & booze!) and it happened to be this game. 1hr 39mins. Needless to say they felt cheated. Edited July 25 by DoUEvenShift 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 2 hours ago, joejoesox said: i never knew that Buerhle had a 3rd game with 27 up and 27 down outside of the nono and PG, you never hear anyone bring that up on sports talk shows/podcasts, or online/radio/tv. 2004 vs CLE, 2 hitter CGSO, both baserunners were erased by GIDP Wow, I didn't realize that. Based on some quick, unverified googling, it sounds like he's the only player in MLB history that has accomplished 27 up/27 down three times. The only other pitcher who did it twice was Sandy Koufax. Is that accurate? Putting on my Sox fan chip on my shoulder: I bet if a Cubs pitcher accomplished that feat 3x, someone would have written a folk song about it. If a Red Sox pitcher accomplished it, maybe Ken Burns would have done a documentary about it. /removing chip off of shoulder. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colome's Hat Posted July 25 Author Share Posted July 25 On 7/24/2025 at 4:53 PM, Look at Ray Ray Run said: I definitely get the small hall crowd, but it's a museum. Mark Buehrle is more than worthy of being enshrined. One of the most unique arms we've seen. A guy who very likely would not be drafted today, and certainly wouldnt have scouts attention. A guy who pitched quick in an era of slowness. He threw slow when everyone else was starting to fixate on velo. A guy who mastered the fringes in a way that got him off the fringe. A pitching doctor, who understood the mental side of the game better than most anyone who has stepped on a mound. My problem with the small hall crowd is they're typically fixated on peaks and "whod you want to start one game" but they're not arguing for someone like Jose Fernandez who should be in that argument of one game. Imo durability is a top 3 skill for a pitcher. Taking the ball every 5th day is job number one. Also, when youre asking for a guy to pitch one game, what are you looking for? A guy that can baffle and dominate a team by throwing a perfect game... with next best outcome being a no-no? Mark has done both those things so... Yes! Buehrle was the master of marginal gains! So technically brilliant as a pitcher and so good at doing the little things that it elevated him. I think especially with this injuries, a lot of people pointed to the usual culprits (Kerry Wood, etc) as having poor mechanics. Buehrle's were pretty much perfect. Buehrle reminds me of a soccer player I admire, Jorginho. Jorgi will never be confused as the quickest or strongest but his technical skills were perfect and h is the master at the little things (distribution, PK's, etc). If there is a hall of fame for FIFA, Jorgi would get in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Look at Ray Ray Run Posted July 25 Share Posted July 25 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Colome's Hat said: Yes! Buehrle was the master of marginal gains! So technically brilliant as a pitcher and so good at doing the little things that it elevated him. I think especially with this injuries, a lot of people pointed to the usual culprits (Kerry Wood, etc) as having poor mechanics. Buehrle's were pretty much perfect. Buehrle reminds me of a soccer player I admire, Jorginho. Jorgi will never be confused as the quickest or strongest but his technical skills were perfect and h is the master at the little things (distribution, PK's, etc). If there is a hall of fame for FIFA, Jorgi would get in. No doubt. For me, Buehrle represents how baseball can be the any-mans game. Not the most skilled, not the most athletic, not the best build, and not even plus college stuff but he was intelligent, resilient, and technically brilliant. The mental component of baseball has always been different than every other sport, and understanding that different is almost as important as being dominant can go a long way. Mark was also just fun as hell. Someone else said it earlier, but this is entertainment and Mark will always be remembered on the south side and Mark was worth the price of admission way more than he wasn't. Also, Billy Pierce should absolutely be in and I don't want that to get lost. Billy and his family were family friends, and example #1 of "if he were a Yankee" because Billy >= Whitey although he never would have said it. Billy was a better guy than he was a player which is saying a lot. Edited July 25 by Look at Ray Ray Run 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lip Man 1 Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 2 hours ago, Look at Ray Ray Run said: No doubt. For me, Buehrle represents how baseball can be the any-mans game. Not the most skilled, not the most athletic, not the best build, and not even plus college stuff but he was intelligent, resilient, and technically brilliant. The mental component of baseball has always been different than every other sport, and understanding that different is almost as important as being dominant can go a long way. Mark was also just fun as hell. Someone else said it earlier, but this is entertainment and Mark will always be remembered on the south side and Mark was worth the price of admission way more than he wasn't. Also, Billy Pierce should absolutely be in and I don't want that to get lost. Billy and his family were family friends, and example #1 of "if he were a Yankee" because Billy >= Whitey although he never would have said it. Billy was a better guy than he was a player which is saying a lot. In head to head meetings between Billy and Whitey, Pierce came out on top 8-6 for what that is worth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NO!!MARY!!! Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 (edited) On 7/25/2025 at 11:41 AM, 77 Hitmen said: Wow, I didn't realize that. Based on some quick, unverified googling, it sounds like he's the only player in MLB history that has accomplished 27 up/27 down three times. The only other pitcher who did it twice was Sandy Koufax. Is that accurate? Putting on my Sox fan chip on my shoulder: I bet if a Cubs pitcher accomplished that feat 3x, someone would have written a folk song about it. If a Red Sox pitcher accomplished it, maybe Ken Burns would have done a documentary about it. /removing chip off of shoulder. Let us not forget that after he threw his perfect game, Dave Bleephead immediately said that Kerry Wood’s 20 strikeout game was more “impressive.” Media idiots like Dan Bernstein glommed onto it and we were treated to “discussions” of what feat was more “impressive.” The enraging part for me is imagining if a Cub pitcher threw a perfect game and a Sox fan told a radio host that something a Sox pitcher did was more “impressive.” He would be dismissed as a jealous lowlife and laughed off the air. Edited July 27 by NO!!MARY!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joejoesox Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 28 minutes ago, NO!!MARY!!! said: Let us not forget that after he threw his perfect game, Dave Bleephead immediately said that Kerry Wood’s 20 strikeout game was more “impressive.” Media idiots like Dan Bernstein glommed onto it and we were treated to “discussions” of what features was more “impressive.” The enraging part for me is imagining if a Cub pitcher threw a perfect game and a Sox fan told a radio host that something a Sox pitcher did was more “impressive.” He would be dismissed as a jealous lowlife and laughed off the air. most people would take a 20K game over a PG only 4 players in history have struck out 20 batters in a game there have been 24 perfect games 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrittBurnsFan Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 10 hours ago, joejoesox said: most people would take a 20K game over a PG only 4 players in history have struck out 20 batters in a game there have been 24 perfect games But...it is possible to strike-out 20 and still lose the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milkman delivers Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 22 hours ago, joejoesox said: i never knew that Buerhle had a 3rd game with 27 up and 27 down outside of the nono and PG, you never hear anyone bring that up on sports talk shows/podcasts, or online/radio/tv. 2004 vs CLE, 2 hitter CGSO, both baserunners were erased by GIDP I want to genuinely thank you for finding this. I’ve quoted this stat many times over the years, but I could never actually find the game you mentioned. I remember watching it happen and thinking it was special at the time, but then I couldn’t remember when it happened 😆 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
77 Hitmen Posted July 26 Share Posted July 26 12 hours ago, joejoesox said: most people would take a 20K game over a PG only 4 players in history have struck out 20 batters in a game there have been 24 perfect games That's a fair point, but I find the "whataboutism" by a local sports reporter in reaction to the incredible feat of a perfect game completely unnecessary. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NO!!MARY!!! Posted July 27 Share Posted July 27 (edited) 8 hours ago, 77 Hitmen said: That's a fair point, but I find the "whataboutism" by a local sports reporter in reaction to the incredible feat of a perfect game completely unnecessary. Exactly my point. The next time a sports radio guy Cubbie fan gushes about the 2016 Cubs, call in and tell him that the 2005 Sox’ 11-1 run and World Series sweep was more “impressive.” See what happens. Edited July 27 by NO!!MARY!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NO!!MARY!!! Posted July 27 Share Posted July 27 20 hours ago, joejoesox said: most people would take a 20K game over a PG only 4 players in history have struck out 20 batters in a game there have been 24 perfect games NOT my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 27 Share Posted July 27 8 hours ago, 77 Hitmen said: That's a fair point, but I find the "whataboutism" by a local sports reporter in reaction to the incredible feat of a perfect game completely unnecessary. It's talk radio. They say stupid s%*# to get your attention. It's their job. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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