Kyle Schwarber watch

[bmags]

He was my "guy i'd sign if Ishbia gave us a bunch of money".

[oldsox]

5 hours ago, Lip Man 1 said:

The Sox were only a few games out of first place and had just gotten Ventura back from the gruesome leg injury when JR pulled the plug. The Twins were never that close to a potential post season spot if I remember right.

The White Flag Trade was much, much worse and that doesn't even factor in the national and local implications, the fan resentment over the next few years (even in 2000) and the impact it had on the field. 

White Flag trade doesn't count, because it was before Sox Talk was invented.

[caulfield12]

27 minutes ago, oldsox said:

White Flag trade doesn't count, because it was before Sox Talk was invented.

Wasn't it 3 1/2 gb the day the trade went down?

They were kind of dead in the water as a team at that point.

[WhiteSox2023]

4 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Wasn't it 3 1/2 gb the day the trade went down?

They were kind of dead in the water as a team at that point.

Yes…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Flag_Trade

And the infamous quote by Jerry at the time was — “Anyone who thinks we can catch Cleveland is crazy.”

Edited November 11 by WhiteSox2023

[pcq]

12 hours ago, caulfield12 said:

Except not spending has driven down revenues to the very bottom as well...only ahead of Oakland.

No revenue sharing to rely upon as a supposed major market team.

A disastrous last three seasons with RSN rights deals collapsing, cutting another $50 million roughly from revenue.

Now it just feels like a death spiral...until at least 2029.

 

Jerry needs to save money. He forgets about franchise value.

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, pcq said:

Jerry needs to save money. He forgets about franchise value.

He has allowed the team valuation to fall from #8/9 after 2005 all the way down to 17th place.

Not going to the poorhouse, but embarrassing for a market like Chicago starving for winning teams.

[Lip Man 1]

42 minutes ago, WhiteSox2023 said:

Yes…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Flag_Trade

And the infamous quote by Jerry at the time was — “Anyone who thinks we can catch Cleveland is crazy.”

Here's the entire follow up quote from my article on the 25th anniversary of the trade. JR was talking to Phil Rogers of the Tribune:

“This team had a chance and it didn’t seize it. It was hard to look at this team and feel very confident. I wasn’t interested in finishing second in a poker hand. Yesterday I said we had no chance of catching Cleveland, today I’m not so sure.”

“It’s obvious we’re disappointed with the way our ball club played this year, with our record…no question about it. We were faced with losing Hernandez and Alvarez and getting nothing, as we did with Alex (Fernandez). Now we’ve added a half dozen talented young players. Two or three have a chance of being stars, according to our scouts. If they’re half right we’re in great shape.”

The Sox finished 27-28 after the deal and the report from scouts that two or three of the six players the Sox received could be stars...that didn't age very well. 

 

 

[caulfield12]

3 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Here's the entire follow up quote from my article on the 25th anniversary of the trade. JR was talking to Phil Rogers of the Tribune:

“This team had a chance and it didn’t seize it. It was hard to look at this team and feel very confident. I wasn’t interested in finishing second in a poker hand. Yesterday I said we had no chance of catching Cleveland, today I’m not so sure.”

“It’s obvious we’re disappointed with the way our ball club played this year, with our record…no question about it. We were faced with losing Hernandez and Alvarez and getting nothing, as we did with Alex (Fernandez). Now we’ve added a half dozen talented young players. Two or three have a chance of being stars, according to our scouts. If they’re half right we’re in great shape.”

The Sox finished 27-28 after the deal and the report from scouts that two or three of the six players the Sox received could be stars...that didn't age very well. 

 

 

Foulke is the only one who had a decent career.  Howry flamed out relatively early and Caruso became a role model and future inspiration for Getz's career.

[WhiteSox2023]

16 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

Here's the entire follow up quote from my article on the 25th anniversary of the trade. JR was talking to Phil Rogers of the Tribune:

“This team had a chance and it didn’t seize it. It was hard to look at this team and feel very confident. I wasn’t interested in finishing second in a poker hand. Yesterday I said we had no chance of catching Cleveland, today I’m not so sure.”

“It’s obvious we’re disappointed with the way our ball club played this year, with our record…no question about it. We were faced with losing Hernandez and Alvarez and getting nothing, as we did with Alex (Fernandez). Now we’ve added a half dozen talented young players. Two or three have a chance of being stars, according to our scouts. If they’re half right we’re in great shape.”

The Sox finished 27-28 after the deal and the report from scouts that two or three of the six players the Sox received could be stars...that didn't age very well. 

Famous last words — “according to Sox scouts.”  🤣

[caulfield12]

There was a time and a place around 2017-18 where the sentence "White Sox scouts" wouldn't have been met with nearly universal mockery and derision across the industry.

That was also before 75% of them were laid off or forced to take early retirement.

[WBWSF]

I've been under the impression that if JR sold the team now he would  be taxed to death. What if he decided to give the new ownership complete control of the franchise now and he  just sat back and let the new owner run the team.  JR  would still own the team .  Perhaps I'll write JR suggesting this idea.  He use to respond to my letters until I asked him to be interviewed for the White Sox GM job.

[Bob Sacamano]

45 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I've been under the impression that if JR sold the team now he would  be taxed to death. What if he decided to give the new ownership complete control of the franchise now and he  just sat back and let the new owner run the team.  JR  would still own the team .  Perhaps I'll write JR suggesting this idea.  He use to respond to my letters until I asked him to be interviewed for the White Sox GM job.

It doesn’t seem like that is the case in the Ishbia deal.

[Lip Man 1]

53 minutes ago, WBWSF said:

I've been under the impression that if JR sold the team now he would  be taxed to death. What if he decided to give the new ownership complete control of the franchise now and he  just sat back and let the new owner run the team.  JR  would still own the team .  Perhaps I'll write JR suggesting this idea.  He use to respond to my letters until I asked him to be interviewed for the White Sox GM job.

That's not an impression it would be reality. Between the Illinois state tax and the capital gains tax it would be a lot of money.

As to the second part JR still feels he is capable of running the show and his ego demands that he be in control and not a figurehead.   

[BrittBurnsFan]

53 minutes ago, Lip Man 1 said:

That's not an impression it would be reality. Between the Illinois state tax and the capital gains tax it would be a lot of money.

As to the second part JR still feels he is capable of running the show and his ego demands that he be in control and not a figurehead.   

Is it so much that he couldn't just up the price in the sale to cover what his family will get when he passes on and the club is sold upon his death?

[Bonerko4Konerko]

1 hour ago, BrittBurnsFan said:

Is it so much that he couldn't just up the price in the sale to cover what his family will get when he passes on and the club is sold upon his death?

If he were to sell the team today for 2 billion he'd owe about $465 million in capital gains taxes (23.8%) and about $100 million in IL State taxes (4.95%). That's a rough estimate based solely on his purchase price of $40 million and the sell price. 

[southsider2k5]

8 minutes ago, Bonerko4Konerko said:

If he were to sell the team today for 2 billion he'd owe about $465 million in capital gains taxes (23.8%) and about $100 million in IL State taxes (4.95%). That's a rough estimate based solely on his purchase price of $40 million and the sell price. 

He doesn't own the whole team.

[almagest]

Darwin was an alright 5th starter in '97. Alvarez was a solid #2. Hernandez was a damn good closer. Do the Sox overtake Cleveland that year if they don't make the trade? Maybe. Certainly doesn't seem impossible like Reinsdorf said, as Cleveland only won 86 games.

A better question is - what if the Sox traded for Mark McGwire instead of the Cardinals? The prospects were pretty mediocre in that return (the best of them was an okay middle reliever), so I'm sure the Sox could've beaten that. Imagine 97 and 98 with Thomas and McGwire alternating at 1B/DH, with Albert Belle also in the middle of the lineup? This team ABSOLUTELY could've won more than 86 in 1997. Cleveland only won 89 in 1998 too, while the Sox won 80, so maybe they could've challenged for the division in 1998 too.

We also wouldn't have been able to trade Keith Foulke for Billy Koch, so even if they didn't win the Central from 97-99 we'd still have that. I'd also bet the Sox still win the Central in 2000 even without Foulke and Howry.

[Lip Man 1]

32 minutes ago, almagest said:

Darwin was an alright 5th starter in '97. Alvarez was a solid #2. Hernandez was a damn good closer. Do the Sox overtake Cleveland that year if they don't make the trade? Maybe. Certainly doesn't seem impossible like Reinsdorf said, as Cleveland only won 86 games.

A better question is - what if the Sox traded for Mark McGwire instead of the Cardinals? The prospects were pretty mediocre in that return (the best of them was an okay middle reliever), so I'm sure the Sox could've beaten that. Imagine 97 and 98 with Thomas and McGwire alternating at 1B/DH, with Albert Belle also in the middle of the lineup? This team ABSOLUTELY could've won more than 86 in 1997. Cleveland only won 89 in 1998 too, while the Sox won 80, so maybe they could've challenged for the division in 1998 too.

We also wouldn't have been able to trade Keith Foulke for Billy Koch, so even if they didn't win the Central from 97-99 we'd still have that. I'd also bet the Sox still win the Central in 2000 even without Foulke and Howry.

According to what Jack McDowell told me McGwire wanted to come to the Sox in the early 90's. This is from my interview with him:

ML: I’m not trying to place blame here, but the Sox as good as they were, always seemed to be one piece short, whether it was another starter or another big bat to go with Thomas and Ventura. Do you think the organization did everything they could to get to a World Series?

JMD: "That’s tough to say. I know that Mark McGwire wanted to come here. He called me three times in about a 10 day period after the 1991 season. He asked me about the other guys in the clubhouse, about the coaching staff and about the city of Chicago. I honestly felt we were going to get him. I called Robin (Ventura) to let him know what was going on and I remember he was excited. He told me “alright...we’re going to kick ass.” The Sox then asked Frank (Thomas) if he’d go to DH full time so that Mark could play first and he said no.”

“One time I was talking with Jerry Reinsdorf and he told me the reason the Sox wouldn’t go out and sign any big name, big money free agents is because they were concerned about how I’d react to it. We had those contract issues all those years and they thought I’d get angry over it. I looked at him and said it wouldn’t bother me, especially if I was looking at my World Series ring! All I ever wanted to do was win, I didn’t care how much somebody else made."

[kitekrazy]

These discussions are like a 400lb lady looking at a Victoria Secrets catalog - so far removed from reality

[77 Hitmen]

7 hours ago, WBWSF said:

I've been under the impression that if JR sold the team now he would  be taxed to death. What if he decided to give the new ownership complete control of the franchise now and he  just sat back and let the new owner run the team.  JR  would still own the team .  Perhaps I'll write JR suggesting this idea.  He use to respond to my letters until I asked him to be interviewed for the White Sox GM job.

In theory, yes something like that could be arranged.  But this is Jerry Reinsdorf.  If I'm not mistaken, he has explicitly said that he's not ready to give up control of the White Sox.  Even if he had a change of heart on this, with the strong possibility of a labor stoppage at the end of next season, it doesn't seem like good timing for Ishbia to assume control of this franchise now as much as I'd like JR to relinquish control asap.  

It seems odd that the team sale arrangement doesn't even give Reinsdorf the option to sell the team until 2029.  Why not have that option available now even if he has no intention of exercising it?  Of course, the significance of 2029 is that is when the stadium lease expires.  

Edited November 12 by 77 Hitmen