Do you like the Marte trade?

[3E8]

I think the bad September Marte had may have left a bad taste in many mouths. Before that month he had a 3.07 ERA. Keep in mind he was pitching over injury in several outings, but part of the blame goes on Marte for the way he handled the situation.

 

Even so, he could've gotten things together before next season. Maybe by healing physically, maybe by sorting things out mentally. The chance was worth taking in my opinion. If things work out, he'll be better than Myers and give you twice as many innings.

[VAfan]

I'd bet my kidney that Timo is here next year.

 

Really? He was the only member of the Group 4 guys who made no contribution in the postseason.

 

Harris scored the only run in the WS clinching game.

Blum hit the game-winning HR in the 3rd WS game.

Widger walked to drive in the other run in that inning.

Ozuna stole second and scored after AJ stole first in game 2 against the Angels.

Timo was out in his only plate appearance.

[knightni]

A kidney and a lung and you have yourself a bet sir!

[nitetrain8601]

Really?  He was the only member of the Group 4 guys who made no contribution in the postseason. 

 

Harris scored the only run in the WS clinching game.

Blum hit the game-winning HR in the 3rd WS game. 

Widger walked to drive in the other run in that inning.

Ozuna stole second and scored after AJ stole first in game 2 against the Angels. 

Timo was out in his only plate appearance.

 

He's a great clubhouse guy, one of the few guys who could actually translate Ozzie to Iguchi. He's pretty decent defensively. Ozzie loves the guy. He won't be gone unless he flips off Ozzie.

 

A kidney and a lung and you have yourself a bet sir!

 

I'll take that bet.

[CanOfCorn]

Absolutely great trade! Even if Marte comes back strong next year, Vizcaino can come back strong as well...and as was said before, he could be the "lefty specialist" because in 2004, he PWND lefties.

 

Mack can play 1B, 2B, 3B, and ALL OF positions. That flexibility is equal one middle reliever who has had a down year. Could we have gotten a prospect, probably, but it would be a very low level one that would be used to fill an A or AA roster, not to make it to the big club.

 

And as for the Thome comment earlier (I apologize, I forgot who was saying it), the Phils absolutely wanted to get rid of him, but to get $22M out of them to help pay for the salary difference, we had to add Gio and Haigwood. That's the economics.

 

KW...you rock!!! Let's win two!

[witesoxfan]

On the surface, I absolutely hate this trade. This is way, way, way below market value for Marte, even if he's coming off a bad year. If a pitching coach can work with him a little bit and help him get his control and command back, he's a top 3-5 lefty in the league again with ease.

 

If the Sox sign Myers...it won't be as bad.

 

A good utility man for a reliever, when the market for relievers is up...KW should have, at the very least, gotten another prospect in return.

[chisox72]

I only wish I could be there to help him pack his bags. Bye bye Damaso, and good riddance.

 

Nice work KW...Mack is going to be a great asset to our bench.

[bulokis]

I dont like this trade just for the fact we have given up 2 LHP already on the Thome deal and now Marte. Its hard to find a good LHP and that's why the market overpays for them. Hopefully KW have something rolled up his sleeves bcoz Mike Myers is gone to the yanks now.

[indyman]

No.

 

Should've kept Blum.

 

Marte had a bad couple months .. but in the last two or three years he's one of the best LHRP.

 

Myers isn't coming to Chicago.

[Flash Tizzle]

No.

 

Should've kept Blum.

 

Marte had a bad couple months .. but in the last two or three years he's one of the best LHRP.

 

Myers isn't coming to Chicago.

 

I just don't understand Williams thought process here.

 

We remove someone, albeit a slight headcase and wildly inconsisent, from a vital component of our team. Who gives a f*** about the bench? I wouldn't have been concerned enough about it this early in the offseason. Oh, but now that we have Mackowiak to solidify our bench there's a gapping hole from the left side of our bullpen.

 

Ultimately, from the merits of this trade, our bench is improved, whereas our bullpen lost a key contributer. I trust Williams finds an LH option, but with Myers gone I'm concerned.

[AddisonStSox]

I just don't understand Williams thought process here.

 

We remove someone, albeit a slight headcase and wildly inconsisent, from a vital component of our team. Who gives a f*** about the bench? I wouldn't have been concerned enough about it this early in the offseason. Oh, but now that we have Mackowiak to solidify our bench there's a gapping hole from the left side of our bullpen.

 

Ultimately, from the merits of this trade, our bench is improved, whereas our bullpen lost a key contributer. I trust Williams finds an LH option, but with Myers gone I'm concerned.

 

 

 

 

The armchair GMs out in force. Damaso Marte--who had a falling-out with the team, as clear as day--could no longer pitch within this organization. The emergence of Neal Cotts and Marte's inability to get out left-handed hitters, coupled with being in a "must move" situation, not only made him expendable, but valuable in the sense of adding a first-class utility player.

 

If Damaso Marte got lefties out, you'd have an arguement on your hands. But, he can't, so, you don't have a leg to stand on.

[Rowand44]

Maybe I just undervalued Marte last season, but was he really a VITAL piece of our team last season? Really?

He was a vital part of trying to blow that lead against Cleveland. The guy's mechanics are all f***ed up right now, he's giving away his slider, he's a headcase, and he can't throw strikes. He's done, he was awesome in 02 and 03, started to decline and 04 and was flat out awful last year. All I know is I'm happy he wont be trotted out there against a tough lefty in a tight game ever again.

[Flash Tizzle]

Maybe I just undervalued Marte last season, but was he really a VITAL piece of our team last season? Really?

 

He was a component of a solid bullpen. Your snapshot of Marte consists of blown saves and various forms of bed wetting. I believe his inconsistency was due to an injury more than mental problems. His breaking ball was consistently flat, and his delivery was ackward. If the White Sox felt it was injury related, and were unwilling to treat his trapezius issues, then perhaps it benefits us. But until information is released which indicates that, I'll continue to hold my position trading him for Mackowiak alone was unnecessary.

 

More than any quantifiable reason for trading Marte (high whip, lack of control late in the year), I wouldn't mind keeping him as insurance. Can you depend on Hermanson, Cotts, Politte all posting stats similar to their 2005 totals?

[Rowand44]

He was a component of a solid bullpen. Your snapshot of Marte consists of blown saves and various forms of bed wetting. I believe his inconsistency was due to an injury more than mental problems. His breaking ball was consistently flat, and his delivery was ackward. If the White Sox felt it was injury related, and were unwilling to treat his trapezius issues, then perhaps it benefits us. But until information is released which indicates that, I'll continue to hold my position trading him for Mackowiak alone was unnecessary.

 

More than any quantifiable reason for trading Marte (high whip, lack of control late in the  year), I wouldn't mind keeping him as insurance. Can you depend on Hermanson, Cotts, Politte all posting stats similar to their 2005 totals?

Bobby and Neal are pretty much sure things in my mind. Viz and the Duke are going to be pretty solid even though everyone hates viz though he was fine last year. Dustin is the biggest question mark obviously with his back so yes I'm definitely worried about him. Cliff I think will be fine as well as long as he stops throwing that stupid 2 seemer.

[Flash Tizzle]

Can you count on Marte going back to 03 form?

 

No, but even if he reverts to 2005 form he's still--at worst--an above average left hander.

 

Marte had worn out his welcome on the Southside. Ozzie was afraid to pitch him at the Cell during the end of the season and in the playoffs because of the fans. When any manager says that publicly to the media, your days are numbered.

 

His final relief appearances did give this impression. He appeared defeated. Now, I don't regret trading Marte if a replacement of equal value is obtained. That is, a pitcher capable of posting a 3.50 ERA--at the least. In addition, the capability of holding LH to low BAA's; something I realize Marte was poor at this year.

 

Browsing the thread devoted to LHP's available on the market, it's not a very extensive listing of viable talent. As of now, with Myers a Yankee, I'm just wondering where we go from here? I figure another LH with be obtained, but at what cost?

 

Mack fills a few voids that this team needed to fill. Crede can now get the days off that he needs becasue of his back, we add depth at 2b, and in the OF(where we need it, BAD, IMO) and adds a LH stick which is nice to have when Crede, Iguchi, and Anderson are all RH.

 

Mackowiak could have been obtained later in the offseason. If anything, bench issues are resolved last with a team. Even if a LHP were signed with Marte already on the roster, I'm positive Marte would have been enough for Mackowiak.

[whitesoxfan101]

Who gives a f*** about the bench? I wouldn't have been

 

You sir, clearly didn't start watching us until the playoffs. Ozzie uses EVERYBODY on the bench A LOT during the regular season to keep everybody fresh, and in fact may have been one of the main reasons why we were so dominant in the playoffs. Other teams may have been a bit tired, but our starters were well rested, and damn it if we didn't go 11-1 to win the World Series!!

 

Also, we have 1 VERY GOOD lefty out of the pen in Cotts, that's 1 more than the Angels have, and I don't here people dissing their bullpen. The armchair QB's on here are amazing, I didn't even think you all would be able to spin trading a mental midget RP losing velocity and getting older, while having 2 straight inconsistent years, for arguably the best utility/supersub in the game.

 

Please, just trust Kenny. He's already got it done once for us, and he will do it again at some point in the not too distant future.

Edited December 8, 2005 by whitesoxfan101

[Kyyle23]

Your snapshot of Marte consists of blown saves and various forms of bed wetting.

 

Im sorry Flash, Marte had enough snapshots to fill an album in 2005. He was the liability of the bullpen, not a component.

[Flash Tizzle]

   

 

The armchair GMs out in force.  Damaso Marte--who had a falling-out with the team, as clear as day--could no longer pitch within this organization.  The emergence of Neal Cotts and Marte's inability to get out left-handed hitters, coupled with being in a "must move" situation, not only made him expendable, but valuable in the sense of adding a first-class utility player.

 

If Damaso Marte got lefties out, you'd have an arguement on your hands.  But, he can't, so, you don't have a leg to stand on.

 

Where are these available pitchers capable of consistently retiring LHH's? Myers fit the billing, but unfortunately, is now a Yankee.

 

If none of the available FA LH's suits our needs, then what are the remaining options? To obtain someone who consistently retires LH's we'll have to overpay.

 

I'd rather have kept Marte, obtained our LH replacement, THEN trade him for whomever. Even if it meant less value.

 

I just believe this trade sets us back further than it helps us. Now, opposed to keeping Marte and searching for a UTL infielder, we've filled our UTL infield position and are left searching for a quality pitcher to replace Marte. Which sounds easier to accomplish in your mind?

Edited December 8, 2005 by Flash Tizzle

[AddisonStSox]

Where are these available pitchers capable of consistently retiring LHH's? Myers fit the billing, but unfortunately, is now a Yankee.

 

If none of the available FA LH's suits our needs, then what are the remaining options? To obtain someone who consistently retires LH's we'll have to overpay.

 

I'd rather have kept Marte, obtained our LH replacement, THEN trade him for whomever. Even if it meant less value.

 

I just believe this trade sets us back further than it helps us. Now, opposed to keeping Marte and searching for a UTL infielder, we've filled our UTL infield position and are left searching for a quality pitcher to replace Marte.  Which sounds easier to accomplish in your mind?

 

...and where do we factor in the option that the traded player and manager could no longer work together?

 

I just want to make sure we're on the same page.

[SSH2005]

I love the trade because Timo is gone now.

[Flash Tizzle]

...and where do we factor in the option that the traded player and manager could no longer work together?

 

I didn't factor it in. I realize this team has good chemistry, but sensible decisions still should be made. Such as providing equal return for relief pitchers. And obtaining pitchers capable of replacing the numbers of a departed player. Williams has plenty of time to accomplish the latter, but what will have to be given up for a pitcher capable of consistently retiring LH's? You did mention that as a reason for trading Marte, no? If Marte was useless because of his inability to work with Guillen, and his poor splits against LH's, then surely we need a quality replacement. For all the insults directed at him (myself included), he's not as simple to replace as Blum was

 

Now that I've answered you, answer me: which pitcher would you suggests replaces Marte in the bullpen? How much do you suppose we'll have to give up in a trade? Remember, he must be capable of either posting a 3.50 ERA or owning lefties.

Edited December 8, 2005 by Flash Tizzle

[Flash Tizzle]

Why? Marte couldnt do either of those, and you claim Marte was "vital" to this team,  so why should his replacement?

 

I apologize for generalizing--

 

Instead of posting a 3.50 as an arbitrary cutoff point, any potential pitcher will have to post a 3.77 ERA. HUGE difference.

 

Why should his replacement post a reasonable ERA or good numbers against lefties? Well, because the alternative is a medicore pitcher with poor statistics. If Williams is looking to just replace Marte with anyone because Marte couldn't fulfill either a 3.50 ERA or good stats against LH's, then just rap up the offseason now. I don't want another Mike Jackson signed to fill a roster spot.

[Guest JimH]

There's no saying Mackowiak would've been available later in the offseason. He's a desired commodity, a guy who can play multiple positions, great teammate and lefthanded batter.

 

Does anyone really think Williams traded away Marte with zero plan to find his replacement? Really now, come on. Even the White Sox website says they've lined up a lefty or two with a similar profile to Marte from 2002.

 

There's no way KW does this without a plan in place. It doesn't have to be done at a certain time, this is December.

 

This situation is absolutely nothing to get worried over.

[Jordan4life_2007]

There's no saying Mackowiak would've been available later in the offseason.  He's a desired commodity, a guy who can play multiple positions, great teammate and lefthanded batter.

 

Does anyone really think Williams traded away Marte with zero plan to find his replacement?  Really now, come on.  Even the White Sox website says they've lined up a lefty or two with a similar profile to Marte from 2002.

 

There's no way KW does this without a plan in place.  It doesn't have to be done at a certain time, this is December. 

 

This situation is absolutely nothing to get worried over.

 

Preach, brotha. In Kenny, I trust.

[beck72]

My take on the trade is this--the sox overpaid in order to get THE guy they wanted. It's similar to the Thome trade. In order to get the right peices, the sox made sure their targetted guys did not get away.

 

Marte surely had more value to other teams [maybe for minor leaguers]. But the sox probably weren't going to get the same guy in return.

 

Mackowiak seems the perfect UTL guy who can get a ton of AB's, that allow the sox starters like Crede, Iguchi, Dye, and Anderson some rest